Fiesta ST Tuning issue, cyl #1 pulling timing, ideas, thoughs, suggestions, etc?

[RAAMaudio]

Cyl #1 was pulling timing and it was the only one with the plug not indexed, 2-4 are doing just fine, still have the NGK plugs as gave away the stock plugs. I ordered a bunch of plugs and found one so #1 was indexed thinking that might be the cure but it did not resolve the issue. I was going to order some stock plugs but thought this would fix it and the tuner thinks these plugs work just fine from the logs we are pulling.

I am going to go ahead and order stock plugs since it has been shown the NGK are not the correct fitment even though my other cylinders seem fine with them.

This was happening on 91 Octane but the tuner was working it out on 91 and seemed we were OK but then I switched to +- 102 Octane Torco and have not been able to add much more timing or boost as the issue is there now again.

I think I may have a weak injector or coil pack, seems it would more likely be injector causing the cyl to run lean....

I can check the coil pack easily enough, once I get the Mishi radiator installed and other mods I am doing right now, hope to finish today. I can swap plugs around at the same time or after.

Not sure about the injector, I have not found anything about swapping out DI ones, any help would be appreciated if I need to do this which it seems.

I am pretty sure it is not false knock as have carefully gone over everything externally what seems could cause it.

Mods:
Cyborg turbo
Catted DP, CPE, 3" flow all the way out
Real CAI, 3", MAF installed
Cobb engine mount, DIY trans mount (lots of motion there, SS has some parts I sent, hope he makes them available
Cobb AP, pro tune in progress.

And helpful recommendations would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Rick

 

[JPGC]

Tuning issue, cyl #1 pulling timing, ideas, thoughs, suggestions, etc?

I don't know if I can be of much help here, but I was having a similar issue when I was datalogging for Justin at Freektune. At times I was getting as much as -5 degree correction in cyl 1 and the the other cylinders would be fine and sometimes they would act up a little, but not as bad as cyl 1. He ended up doing a Global Timing adjustment of some sort and the problem went away. During the time while I was logging and before the last adjustment that he made, I had swapped plugs as well with no change in the results....I don't necessarily believe that the tuning was completely the issue, I just believe that he backed it off enough to keep the issue in check.
Has there been any testing to show if cyl 1 runs hotter or is more susceptible to run hotter than the other cylinders? Also, as we push these engines, is the any evidence that the blow by through the pcv is coating cyl 1 more than the rest since the hose connects on the intake manifold on the same side as the cyl 1 and maybe the oil is running down the inside of the intake manifold toward that cyl? Though not impossible, I doubt it's a faulty injector or coil, but since the coil is easy to check...why not.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Thanks

What is odd is the problem was fixed and making good power on the 91 octane tune and now back since swapping to the 102 Octane so barely making more power......

I have an OCC but have not checked that line, I am pulling the Elite Engineering unit in the next day or so and installing the high end Mishimoto so I will check the lines, can, etc....but the last time I checked it all looked good.

Not sure how we can check cylinders for heat, any idea?

I do have a color camera I can slide down in and at least look at the piston top and walls.

If the injectors are not to hard to take out maybe I can see more that way.

As soon as up and running I will do the coil swap as so easy, sure would be nice to find that was it as right now I can only make a tiny bit more power on the 102 which is just not right.

Thanks

 

[JPGC]

Tuning issue, cyl #1 pulling timing, ideas, thoughs, suggestions, etc?

Thanks

What is odd is the problem was fixed and making good power on the 91 octane tune and now back since swapping to the 102 Octane so barely making more power......

I have an OCC but have not checked that line, I am pulling the Elite Engineering unit in the next day or so and installing the high end Mishimoto so I will check the lines, can, etc....but the last time I checked it all looked good.

Not sure how we can check cylinders for heat, any idea?

I do have a color camera I can slide down in and at least look at the piston top and walls.

If the injectors are not to hard to take out maybe I can see more that way.

As soon as up and running I will do the coil swap as so easy, sure would be nice to find that was it as right now I can only make a tiny bit more power on the 102 which is just not right.

Thanks

You should be able to monitor the Exhaust GasTemp ( EGT) to get an idea of the cylinder temp. If it's high at 1 cylinder, it could be from inadequate cooling around that cylinder or from timing. From what I know EGT measurement, can be deceiving because it can be a sign that the timing is retarded to much causing some combustion outside the cylinder in the exhaust or it can be a sign of the timing being too advanced.
With the Ford Modular V8 engines there have been a lot of talk and theories over the years about certain cylinders being too hot due to lack of cooling passages or lack of coolant flow around the cylinders. Some even say that the Coyote #8 cylinder issue was caused by that and others say it was due to tuning.
The first time that I was on the dyno with the FiST, I did a pull with the hood down and no fan. I wanted to simulate how the car and it's tune would act, say at a test and tune at the dragstrip where I would be idling behind other cars waiting to pull up to the tree. A worst case scenario. The tune I was running would always be + on the cyl ign correction of each cylinder while I was driving on the street (normal driving and wot). Well, first we did a warm up pull, then the second pull, I started logging. With the same perfect tune plus the heat, the negative corrections came quickly at 4000 rpm plus. I had to get the dyno operator to let out of it cause I freaked out when it went to -7 ignition correction in cyl 1. I wasn't measuring EGT, but my charge temp was at 130. Also, during that one pull, the AFR was leaner. I then lifted the hood and let it cool, then ran it again, everything was back to normal, like on the street.

 

[baldtaco]

Put stock rmm back in for testing

 

[RAAMaudio]

I will give that a try, car is on the lift right now doing the Radiator install and other things so an easy job. If it fixes the issue is still does not solve the problem of needing to run a mount but at least helps get closer to getting it all sorted out, thanks

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My charge temps are very low, J-Line IC shrouded to maximize flow through it and the inlet pipe for the TB is fully insulated.

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I will take a look at ETG, I do not think I have logged it before. I do have a stand along ETG I could install as well if needed, I put an extra port on the DP when I built it just in case ever needed.

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I have a fully opened grill, sectioned bumper, oil cooler, sell sealed grill to coolers, rear CAI in the grill, and it was cold out when I made the runs, I had to drive around quite a bit just to get up to op temp to make them.

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Thanks, lot's of things to try, keep an eye on, etc....much appreciated

 

[razorlab]

EGT is inferred in the Fiesta ST and it's not per cyl

 

[Sourskittle]

Even when the egt's get high (or so it thinks ), it just dumps extra fuel I think.

 

[JPGC]

Tuning issue, cyl #1 pulling timing, ideas, thoughs, suggestions, etc?

EGT is inferred in the Fiesta ST and it's not per cyl

Are you saying that the FiST infers or estimates the EGTs vice having a sensor to actually measure it ( I haven't looked to tried to log EGTs on this car). If so that's good to know. Either way, I'm just trying to throw some ideas out there.

 

[Sourskittle]

Yes. It does the samething with oil temp, valve temp,
Exhaust flange temp, compressor outlet temp, compressor outlet pressure, pressure ratio, lol. Kind of a lot. And when you port the manifolds or change the throttle body or anything that changes the flow of the engine, it throws the calculations off.

 

[JPGC]

Tuning issue, cyl #1 pulling timing, ideas, thoughs, suggestions, etc?

Yes. It does the samething with oil temp, valve temp,
Exhaust flange temp, compressor outlet temp, compressor outlet pressure, pressure ratio, lol. Kind of a lot. And when you port the manifolds or change the throttle body or anything that changes the flow of the engine, it throws the calculations off.

Your answer answers my next question, lol. It really makes you think of how bad a person could screw things up if trying to do something that he/ she isn't experienced with or knowledgeable of.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Yikes, what a royal pain in the arse this all can be when you really want to push the envelope! Glad I want to just go to a decent P/W ratio.

I did not think but never looked into the factory wideband 02 sensor all it can read, makes sense not EGT...

It would require a sensor per cyl to reach them separately.

Using one of the EGT gauges and sensors I have on the shelf would not help isolating just one, perhaps one of the thermal meters I have, aimed at one then the next cyl could help.....as long as read right after a run like it doing tire temps.

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I did not realize oil temps are inferred, what next, I guess I might need to install some analog gauges I have on the shelf......

And I was going to just port the inlet flange of the TB...just taper the edge of the inlet....knife edging of the plate is not likely a good thing on this car.....

 

[razorlab]

Are you saying that the FiST infers or estimates the EGTs vice having a sensor to actually measure it ( I haven't looked to tried to log EGTs on this car). If so that's good to know. Either way, I'm just trying to throw some ideas out there.

Most MED7 ECU's infer EGT using the OEM wideband lambda sensor.

when you port the manifolds or change the throttle body or anything that changes the flow of the engine, it throws the calculations off.

Only if you don't recalibrate the VE tables in the ECU.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I have not been working on the car the last couple of days, to busy, family stuff, BF stuff.....the more I think about this the more it seems it could be a fuel injector issue.

Anybody have any info on swapping two around to test it, difficulty, etc....?

 

[RAAMaudio]

Finally, got the Radiator mod and a bunch of other little ones done, car is better than ever but now back to tuning.

Stock plugs back in, fixed the timing issue instantly!

Dozens of runs, lots of time with the tuner, only to find out the plugs were just not going to work, I will get the 102 Torco tune sorted since in the car then will have to tweak the 91 Octane a bit I am sure.

 

[JPGC]

Finally, got the Radiator mod and a bunch of other little ones done, car is better than ever but now back to tuning.

Stock plugs back in, fixed the timing issue instantly!

Dozens of runs, lots of time with the tuner, will get the 102 Torco tune sorted since in the car then will have to tweak the 91 Octane a bit I am sure.

Glad you got it figured out....for some reason I thought you had already swapped back to the stockers. I was wrong though as I just re-read your first post in this thread, lol

 

[RAAMaudio]

I forgot to say one thing so edited the post, dozens of runs then found the plugs were the issue, glaringly so with the Torco, the tuner got it to work well enough on the NGK but now we have to go back and retune a bit but should be pretty easy.


I had not done the plugs yet as thought we had it figured out, then the tuner was going to be unavailable for a week so I did the radiator swap which took far longer than expected, finally up and running and started tuning.

I made some runs yesterday and have a new file to go run in an hour or so, much more boost and timing added that what we had to use on the first Torco sessions.

Thanks

 

[MojaveGreen]

You are tuning with Panda right? I had a similar issue with cyl # 2. I retorqued the motor mount, and worked on my exhaust a bit, and the issue went away. Also doing a torco tune, and a standard 91 tune. Running IKV22's right now, might just go and throw the stockers back in. I would suspect some sort of false knock issue. The difference between the Torco tune and 91 is huge. I can't wait to go back to the 98 octane tuning, but need to finish up the 91 stuff!

 

[JPGC]

You are tuning with Panda right? I had a similar issue with cyl # 2. I retorqued the motor mount, and worked on my exhaust a bit, and the issue went away. Also doing a torco tune, and a standard 91 tune. Running IKV22's right now, might just go and throw the stockers back in. I would suspect some sort of false knock issue. The difference between the Torco tune and 91 is huge. I can't wait to go back to the 98 octane tuning, but need to finish up the 91 stuff!

Can you elaborate on the exhaust work?

 

[RAAMaudio]

Yes, with Panda, Matt is great to work with.

Got the timing issue fixed then dialed up more boost, via WG preload adjustment, lots of fun taking it all apart to get to it....then too much boost at the top end and the timing issue cam back, turned back the timing and all good but still to much boost up high.

More runs and just not adjustable via the solftware so had to back teh preload back down so I put it in the middle of where between the prior and last adjustment, just finished it and going to make a run and see what happens.

BUT, I think the timing was false knock may be caused from hitting a bump that normally I am passed before I get on the throttle and start making good boost. I moved some things around under the hood to see what is going on. I have a close area I can make runs but have to watch for the right space in traffic so not bothering anybody and not get caught and sometimes I have to start at a different spot but now will just make sure I am past that or come back around and do it again.