Ecoboost Intake Valve Carbon build up ?

[RAAMaudio]

Instead of VTA how about designing something that does not put it back into the engine? Perhaps something as simple as a catch can device that collects at least the majority of it then dump what condenses from it into your old oil to be recycled or burned for heating like in the NAPA store here.

How hard could that really be to design such a system, it is just a filter with known parameters.

 

[dyn085]

Instead of VTA how about designing something that does not put it back into the engine? Perhaps something as simple as a catch can device that collects at least the majority of it then dump what condenses from it into your old oil to be recycled or burned for heating like in the NAPA store here.

How hard could that really be to design such a system, it is just a filter with known parameters.

VTA is vent-to-atmosphere, so it's not going back into your engine.

But I see where you're going as I don't feel the need to pollute either. The inherent problem is that what is 'catchable' isn't what causes the buildup and what we would want to capture probably wouldn't be economically feasible to. What we see that's caught in a catch-can is perfectly acceptable (in most cases, skipping excessive fuel-dilution for this discussion as it's not a known problem on our platform yet) to be run back into the oil pan and re-circulated. What needs to be captured is the gas-not anything liquid.

 

[Sourskittle]

Putting a vacuum fitting on the downpipe is likely what I'm going to do to suck the pressure out of the crank case. Anything that gets last the catch can gets dumped without going through the motor. I drive a 1.6L, epa can eat me.

 

[timboslice]

Stupid question... Why is the PCV system designed to vent into the intake manifold? Wouldn't it be better for it go out the other way, through the exhaust? Could the cat not burn/process the crankcase gas?

 

[dyn085]

Stupid question... Why is the PCV system designed to vent into the intake manifold? Wouldn't it be better for it go out the other way, through the exhaust? Could the cat not burn/process the crankcase gas?

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankcase_ventilation_system

 

[westcoaST]

But that fluid would never reach the back of the valves. If it did our cars would be blowing smoke all of the time and we would always be low on oil. It definitely makes users feel good to see the fluid, but again-the fluid is not the problem. The oil will re-circulate and any condensation in it will be burnt off once the oil is up to operating temperatures.

The reason that vent-to-atmosphere breathers are the only solution is because they remove the atomized oil from the system altogether. Nothing else will or does. Besides keeping your valves clean they will also keep your octane rating high. Unfortunately that comes at the expense of putting those pollutants into the air and all over your engine bay.

I've seen no proof that oil exits a crankcase as a gas. In my previous response, I talked about the atomized oil being de-atomized back into a liquid, through the use of a good quality catch can. I do not believe that the oil vapors are gaseous in nature, when they leave the engine through the PCV valve and enter into the intake manifold, just like water in compressed air is not a gas, prior to being compressed. It is atomized, but still a liquid. The latent heat of vaporization for oil is over 600F, but this only means that the oil is now a vapor, which is not a gas. I agree that no method of de-atomization is complete, but some is better than none. I also do not understand why walnut blasting is fine for BMWs but not for Ecoboost engines. I think that this statement (will cause ecoboost turbos to malfunction), again uncorroborated, by no one other than a ford tech, is heresay, and until we hear from Ford, is unsubstantiated. I seem to recall Ford pulling apart an F150 ecoboost engine after a rather long period of torture testing, and showing that the internals looked pretty good. Valves are shown 1:27 into this 2011 utube video.

The ecoboost engine shown by the Ford tech was probably driven short distances, not allowing the engine to properly warm up. This would cause the kind of buildup on the valves shown in that engine.

[video=youtube;BFfRcwesqNg]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFfRcwesqNg[/video]

 

[timboslice]

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crankcase_ventilation_system

Although an interesting read, it didn't really answer my question. In the age of DI engines, why is the most efficient way of burning crankcase gas is to direct in back into the intake? Would a hot catalytic converter not do the same?

 

[jariten]

Anecdotal/different platform, but on my wife's GTI I've been running a catch can since around 1k. When the intake manifold failed (thanks VAG) at ~50k the valves were horrendously gunked and I went for a blasting. Similar threads on VW forums go the same way as this one (catch can will prevent it!/catch can doesn't do a whole lot for this issue). Personal experience is the latter.

 

[timboslice]

I've seen no proof that oil exits a crankcase as a gas. In my previous response, I talked about the atomized oil being de-atomized back into a liquid, through the use of a good quality catch can. I do not believe that the oil vapors are gaseous in nature, when they leave the engine through the PCV valve and enter into the intake manifold, just like water in compressed air is not a gas, prior to being compressed. It is atomized, but still a liquid. The latent heat of vaporization for oil is over 600F, but this only means that the oil is now a vapor, which is not a gas. I agree that no method of de-atomization is complete, but some is better than none. I also do not understand why walnut blasting is fine for BMWs but not for Ecoboost engines. I think that this statement (will cause ecoboost turbos to malfunction), again uncorroborated, by no one other than a ford tech, is heresay, and until we hear from Ford, is unsubstantiated. I seem to recall Ford pulling apart an F150 ecoboost engine after a rather long period of torture testing, and showing that the internals looked pretty good. Valves are shown 1:27 into this 2011 utube video.

The ecoboost engine shown by the Ford tech was probably driven short distances, not allowing the engine to properly warm up. This would cause the kind of buildup on the valves shown in that engine.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFfRcwesqNg

A small amount of oil is also used lubricate the valve guides.

+1 for the Ford info. I think the problem has yet to be completely quantified. The ecoboost family is also a newer generation of FI DI engines (newer architecture compared to the Audi FSI series and BMW N54). Ford has implemented some interesting OEM trickery to help alleviate the problem ie. the fuel "burp" back into the intake and the ECU programming that reduces the valves exposure.

 

[westcoaST]

Anecdotal/different platform, but on my wife's GTI I've been running a catch can since around 1k. When the intake manifold failed (thanks VAG) at ~50k the valves were horrendously gunked and I went for a blasting. Similar threads on VW forums go the same way as this one (catch can will prevent it!/catch can doesn't do a whole lot for this issue). Personal experience is the latter.

The type of catch can used is just as important as the use of a catch can. As I said earlier, the majority of them are empty cylinders with an inlet and an outlet, attached to a empty cannister. These OCCs do not have enough surface area or engineering to turn oil vapors and water vapors back into liquids.

Also, on my earlier point, the only gas present coming out of a PCV would be combustion gases that pass by the rings and enter the crankcase.

To get a good catch can, you either need to manufacture one yourself, or mod one, or purchase an OCC that uses at least two methods of de-atomization. I think the bronze sinthered metal filter and using plates or SS pot scrubbers are good methods. Conceptualpolymer.com has a good design for their OCC, as does Mishimoto.

 

[dyn085]

Anecdotal/different platform, but on my wife's GTI I've been running a catch can since around 1k. When the intake manifold failed (thanks VAG) at ~50k the valves were horrendously gunked and I went for a blasting. Similar threads on VW forums go the same way as this one (catch can will prevent it!/catch can doesn't do a whole lot for this issue). Personal experience is the latter.

^ Exactly this.

A small amount of oil is also used lubricate the valve guides.

+1 for the Ford info. I think the problem has yet to be completely quantified. The ecoboost family is also a newer generation of FI DI engines (newer architecture compared to the Audi FSI series and BMW N54). Ford has implemented some interesting OEM trickery to help alleviate the problem ie. the fuel "burp" back into the intake and the ECU programming that reduces the valves exposure.

The problem is definitely quantified on other Ecoboost platforms-just not on ours yet. That's means there's a high-probability that we will have the problem as well. Again, it's just part of owning a DI engine.

And no offense, but I don't think I would fully believe what Ford says about the problem not existing-especially when multiple communities are having the issue. There's a huge difference between a 'torture test' with 162,000 'equivalent' miles and the average daily-driven vehicle. I doubt Ford would come right out and say 'Yes, if you buy this vehicle you will run into carbon build-up problems due to the DI design'. That probably wouldn't sell many vehicles.

Eventually someone will take the IM off and see. Depending on their mileage/driving conditions we will have a better idea of what degree this does/doesn't affect us.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I wonder if this has been done, mentioned here but done by anybody with a DI engine?

Plumb it into the exhaust.

I have an extra bung I welded in when I built my DP, it is before the cat, and I have a brass check valve big enough to use, I would use a defouler to move away from the heat a bit, OBD port to AN fitting adapeter, AN fitting to the check valve, high temp hose to the catch can, since have one installed may as well use it.

I nearly always fully warm up the car when I drive it, if not fully warmed at least close to it. I can also set to monitor cat temp to ensure hot enough when I drive the car for shorter trips before turning it off.

Thoughts on this no cost mod as I have all the parts, not much weight to gain, etc....?

Thanks
Rick

 

[timboslice]

I wonder if this has been done, mentioned here but done by anybody with a DI engine?

Plumb it into the exhaust.

I have an extra bung I welded in when I built my DP, it is before the cat, and I have a brass check valve big enough to use, I would use a defouler to move away from the heat a bit, OBD port to AN fitting adapeter, AN fitting to the check valve, high temp hose to the catch can, since have one installed may as well use it.

I nearly always fully warm up the car when I drive it, if not fully warmed at least close to it. I can also set to monitor cat temp to ensure hot enough when I drive the car for shorter trips before turning it off.

Thoughts on this no cost mod as I have all the parts, not much weight to gain, etc....?

Thanks
Rick

Haha this is what I was thinking, albeit, more from of a hypothetical perspective of "why aren't manufacturers doing this."

I can't see why a hot cat couldn't burn the pcv gas.

Try it? Do you think you would throw a code from doing this?

 

[Sekred]

Catch cans have been around long before GDI. Part of the reason I installed the catch can/oil separator was to reduce oil mist from the PVC system ending up in the intake manifold and then burnt in the combustion chamber. Burning oil in the combustion chamber serves no useful purpose. Whether this reduces carbon built up on the intake valves remains to be seen.

 

[me32]

I wonder if this has been done, mentioned here but done by anybody with a DI engine?

Plumb it into the exhaust.

I have an extra bung I welded in when I built my DP, it is before the cat, and I have a brass check valve big enough to use, I would use a defouler to move away from the heat a bit, OBD port to AN fitting adapeter, AN fitting to the check valve, high temp hose to the catch can, since have one installed may as well use it.

I nearly always fully warm up the car when I drive it, if not fully warmed at least close to it. I can also set to monitor cat temp to ensure hot enough when I drive the car for shorter trips before turning it off.

Thoughts on this no cost mod as I have all the parts, not much weight to gain, etc....?

Thanks
Rick

This is a good thought an would great if you could try it out.

 

[Sekred]

I wonder if this has been done, mentioned here but done by anybody with a DI engine?

Plumb it into the exhaust.

I have an extra bung I welded in when I built my DP, it is before the cat, and I have a brass check valve big enough to use, I would use a defouler to move away from the heat a bit, OBD port to AN fitting adapeter, AN fitting to the check valve, high temp hose to the catch can, since have one installed may as well use it.

I nearly always fully warm up the car when I drive it, if not fully warmed at least close to it. I can also set to monitor cat temp to ensure hot enough when I drive the car for shorter trips before turning it off.

Thoughts on this no cost mod as I have all the parts, not much weight to gain, etc....?

Thanks
Rick

The down pipe is going to have back pressure in it, even the best flowing system will developed some positive pressure, varies with resistance.
More revs, higher boost, more flow, higher resistance = higher back pressure. We need some vacuum or at least zero pressure to allow the crank case fumes to escape.

You could try a race car set-up. Block both ends of the PCV system altogether, run the other hose from the valve cover to a large catch can and return it to the intake pipe before the turbo, AKA diesel engine set up. Any vented catch can has to use a method of deleting the PCV system, because of manifold vacuum.
You would probably need to mod the baffle in the valve cover because it may not allow enough flow using this method. If you remove this hose and have a look into the valve cover, the outlet hole steps down to about 5/16".

 

[Sourskittle]

You guys ever see how soap is added to a pressure washer?

The heat problem is easily solved by a piece of coiled metal tube.

Check valve would be needed.

In a nut shell, just stealing vacuum from the downpipe instead of the intake manifold.

Its hard to understand how/why you can get vacuum, but I honestly don't care about the science or the math. What I do know is that is works. Something about very high speed, high volume of air/exhaust moving out with a small port that creates the vacuum. Applying that vac to a good catch can means no oil in the intake

I also know this works for a fact. We built one for my friends 6.0L power stroke. And it works perfect.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I have a new OCC coming tomorrow I am going to run for now, the top line Mishimoto, and will pull the intake manifold off a bit later and see what is going on. I want to do a bit of porting around the TB and into the intake, if needed, the last things I have left to port on this car.

I guess I should do the manifold right away before I install the catch can then do it again later...

OR, maybe I should put some openings in the manifold to open and look in with my flex head color camera on occasion, hmmm, I rather like that idea, I just might have to do it

Thanks for all the input, much appreciated!

Rick

 

[Sekred]

I like the flex camera idea, and a tutorial on removing the intake, something I would like to do as well,

 

[Sourskittle]

I've been dieing to see inside the intake ports for chances to port/improve. I lost a little interest when they posted that focus st intake was good for 700hp stock, lol.