Ecoboost Intake Valve Carbon build up ?

[rodmoe]

OK saw these YouTube video's and thought I would post them up as a public service message for All Ecoboost owners and I am NOT saying a oil catch can will prevent this but it may help.
Not trying to go all chicken little that the sky is falling this is a known problem for DI engines for a long time but I posted it as this guy mentions certain repairs or treatments (one I was considering sea foam) and say Ford is seeing turbo failures soon after such treatments as well as possible cat converter issues. Don't know the guy and it is a issue with he 2.0 ltr Focus Ecoboost.
I am happy he pushed this up to Ford and maybe they will come back with a cost effective fix.. I was surprised at how low of mailage some of the cars he talks about have had.. Most are 3.5 and 2.0 but he does mention the 1.6 so I figured I may as well give Us all a heads up..
Again this is not to scare you or say this will happen just a PSM so we are aware of it could be happening... Plan on some sort of maint. preventive (aka oil catch can, though this will only slow the process is my guess) or Intake valve stem cleaning service of some sort..

Part 1
[video=youtube_share;0irwbwpuEbQ]http://youtu.be/0irwbwpuEbQ[/video]

Part 2
[video=youtube_share;nK2eXdaydqI]http://youtu.be/nK2eXdaydqI[/video]

 

[airjor13]

hmmm, it would be smart for a vendor to make a bolt on catch-can set-up!

 

[rooSTer]

That guy is a member over on FocusFanatics...here's the original thread he posted http://www.focusfanatics.com/forum/showthread.php?t=420426

 

[dyn085]

The problem with a catch-can is that it doesn't catch what actually comes in contact with the back-side of the valves, and that's the oil that's atomized. It will remove some of the moisture/fluid that some may be finding in their intercooler/charge puppies and may slow down some of the buildup, but with direct-injection it's only going to be a matter of time before we're replacing heads as there's no approved cleaning method yet.

How much of a problem this is for our 1.6l is still yet to be seen/figured out. While it won't hurt to install one, it may or may not prove to be more work than it's worth. The only way you could legitimately eliminate the problem would be to use a vent-to-atmosphere breather, which isn't good for the environment, and is illegal.

The best preventative-maintenance that people can do right now is to choose an oil with a low NOACK score.

...or you can invest in a water/meth setup and use boost often enough to keep them clean...

 

[koozy]

The best preventative-maintenance that people can do right now is to choose an oil with a low NOACK score.

Agreed. I've chosen Pennzoil Ultra.

 

[westcoaST]

I think a good catch can should be able to eliminate a majority of this buildup. My reinforced clear hose from the catch can to the intake fitting has been very clean since i changed my catch can to the bronze filter and plate Mishimoto catch can. This is about as plug and play as you can get. The hose supplied is a 5/8" ID thick walled hose. I like using a clear, wire reinforced hose so I can do a visual check of the efficiency of the OCC, and it doesn't collapse like the fiber reinforced one did. This adds about $20.00 to the cost, including the OCC.

 

[Sourskittle]

I think a catch can is the biggest step. I'm thinking about tig welding a bung in my cold side intercooler endtank for W/I so I don't have to tap plastic or replace the cold pipe when I go W/I

 

[timboslice]

The problem with a catch-can is that it doesn't catch what actually comes in contact with the back-side of the valves, and that's the oil that's atomized. It will remove some of the moisture/fluid that some may be finding in their intercooler/charge puppies and may slow down some of the buildup, but with direct-injection it's only going to be a matter of time before we're replacing heads as there's no approved cleaning method yet.

How much of a problem this is for our 1.6l is still yet to be seen/figured out. While it won't hurt to install one, it may or may not prove to be more work than it's worth. The only way you could legitimately eliminate the problem would be to use a vent-to-atmosphere breather, which isn't good for the environment, and is illegal.

The best preventative-maintenance that people can do right now is to choose an oil with a low NOACK score.

...or you can invest in a water/meth setup and use boost often enough to keep them clean...

+1. I'm still considering a catch-can install but they haven't shown verifiable improvement in protecting the intake valves ie. posting pictures of oil in the catch can or clean PCV hoses isn't proof that there aren't deposits on the intake valves. Not to say that they are a bad idea or not worth doing (they might slow the progress of the deposits by limiting the amount of crank case oil that gets recycled into the intake). Other that the standard walnut blasting, are there any other cleaning techniques out there?

 

[dyn085]

+1. I'm still considering a catch-can install but they haven't shown verifiable improvement in protecting the intake valves ie. posting pictures of oil in the catch can or clean PCV hoses isn't proof that there aren't deposits on the intake valves. Not to say that they are a bad idea or not worth doing (they might slow the progress of the deposits by limiting the amount of crank case oil that gets recycled into the intake). Other that the standard walnut blasting, are there any other cleaning techniques out there?

Right now there aren't any at all for the Ecoboost line. Supposedly other methods have ultimately led to turbo failures.

There's definitely nothing wrong with installing a catch-can, but I know that on the FoST the IM is designed to drain back the fluid a catch-can would catch anyways (the normally-aspirated models do too). While I don't know for sure with the 1.6L, at the very least it would keep fluid out of the piping.

Besides a low-NOACK oil, I also do an Italian tune-up at each oil change. These are really the only two things that I can believe actually working without using WMI, which only works when it's spraying and can be a hassle to deal with.

 

[re-rx7]

How much of a problem this is for our 1.6l is still yet to be seen/figured out. While it won't hurt to install one, it may or may not prove to be more work than it's worth. The only way you could legitimately eliminate the problem would be to use a vent-to-atmosphere breather, which isn't good for the environment, and is illegal.
QUOTE]

Already did. LOL

 

[airjor13]

I heard Italian tune-ups make jesus happy!

 

[rodmoe]

How much of a problem this is for our 1.6l is still yet to be seen/figured out. While it won't hurt to install one, it may or may not prove to be more work than it's worth. The only way you could legitimately eliminate the problem would be to use a vent-to-atmosphere breather, which isn't good for the environment, and is illegal.
QUOTE]

Already did. LOL

As long as you vent both sides of the cam cover you should be good and there is the line into the pvc on the intake and the line into the air intake to the turbo between the air filter and turbo..

 

[Sekred]

Catch can/separator, better than nothing.

4500 kms.

 

[dyn085]

Catch can/separator, better than nothing.

4500 kms.

View attachment 2622

But that fluid would never reach the back of the valves. If it did our cars would be blowing smoke all of the time and we would always be low on oil. It definitely makes users feel good to see the fluid, but again-the fluid is not the problem. The oil will re-circulate and any condensation in it will be burnt off once the oil is up to operating temperatures.

The reason that vent-to-atmosphere breathers are the only solution is because they remove the atomized oil from the system altogether. Nothing else will or does. Besides keeping your valves clean they will also keep your octane rating high. Unfortunately that comes at the expense of putting those pollutants into the air and all over your engine bay.

 

[westcoaST]

But that fluid would never reach the back of the valves. If it did our cars would be blowing smoke all of the time and we would always be low on oil. It definitely makes users feel good to see the fluid, but again-the fluid is not the problem. The oil will re-circulate and any condensation in it will be burnt off once the oil is up to operating temperatures.

The reason that vent-to-atmosphere breathers are the only solution is because they remove the atomized oil from the system altogether. Nothing else will or does. Besides keeping your valves clean they will also keep your octane rating high. Unfortunately that comes at the expense of putting those pollutants into the air and all over your engine bay.

I have to disagree with the thinking that this oil is a fluid when it hits the valves. The purpose of a catch can is to remove atomized oil from the air being pulled by engine vacuum, from the PCV into the intake. Without a catch can, the oil is not a fluid, per se, but more like a gas, and can become deposited on valves, otherwise why would more deposits be on the #2 and 3 valves than the # 1 & 4 valves which are not in direct line of the PCV line into the intake manifold. I can find as many articles that say well designed catch cans work, as those that say they don't work. So I don't think a true engineering study of the effectiveness of OCCs has been performed. Here is one point of view that says that catch cans do indeed de-atomize oil vapor:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorhead-university/boot-the-fixer-expert-car-advice-audi-redline

Ultimately, the proof is an examination of the valves after 30,000 or more miles, and a comparison between an engine with and without a good catch can.

In my opinion, a good catch can is more than an empty container where the air from the PCV goes into the container, and then back out. There should be some type of bronze powder metal sinthered filter at the inlet. A couple of plates on the ID to increase surface area should also help, from a fluid dynamics standpoint.

Think of the oil mist, like a morning dew that comes into contact with leaves and grass blades, these coalesce the mist, which is finely separated water in the air, which comes out of solution due to changing dew points. This mist changes back to water droplets, and is deposited on these leaves and grass blades, owing to their surface area. A good catch can should work in the same way, turning some/most of the automized oil into liquid oil, keeping it out of the engine. I have an engine boroscope and plan on checking on the progress of oil deposits on my valves as a function of mileage.

 

[dyn085]

I have to disagree with the thinking that this oil is a fluid when it hits the valves. The purpose of a catch can is to remove atomized oil from the air being pulled by engine vacuum, from the PCV into the intake. Without a catch can, the oil is not a fluid, per se, but more like a gas, and can become deposited on valves, otherwise why would more deposits be on the #2 and 3 valves than the # 1 & 4 valves which are not in direct line of the PCV line into the intake manifold. I can find as many articles that say well designed catch cans work, as those that say they don't work. So I don't think a true engineering study of the effectiveness of OCCs has been performed. Here is one point of view that says that catch cans do indeed de-atomize oil vapor:

http://www.roadandtrack.com/motorhead-university/boot-the-fixer-expert-car-advice-audi-redline

Ultimately, the proof is an examination of the valves after 30,000 or more miles, and a comparison between an engine with and without a good catch can.

In my opinion, a good catch can is more than an empty container where the air from the PCV goes into the container, and then back out. There should be some type of bronze powder metal sinthered filter at the inlet. A couple of plates on the ID to increase surface area should also help, from a fluid dynamics standpoint.

Think of the oil mist, like a morning dew that comes into contact with leaves and grass blades, these coalesce the mist, which is finely separated water in the air, which comes out of solution due to changing dew points. This mist changes back to water droplets, and is deposited on these leaves and grass blades, owing to their surface area. A good catch can should work in the same way, turning some/most of the automized oil into liquid oil, keeping it out of the engine. I have an engine boroscope and plan on checking on the progress of oil deposits on my valves as a function of mileage.

The oil isn't a fluid when it reaches the valves, which is my entire point. The mist and fluid that gets circulated back into the intake never stands a chance at reaching the valves because it's going to hit everything else before actually getting there. That's why I'm saying that a catch-can will protect your turbo by preventing coking and keep your piping clean but won't stop buildup on your valves.

It's not the fluid or mist that we are concerned with here, it is the gas. The gas is what will contact the valves and leave deposits. That gas is present the entire time, catch-can or not, and even when a catch-can is present it won't do anything about it. Basically, people see the fluid that accumulates in a catch-can and think it's effective, but they have no way of quantifying the amount of gas that is/isn't blowing straight through because it can't be captured.

We're both saying the same thing but focusing on different aspects of what is reintroduced back into the intake from the pcv system.

Audi has been battling this from day one and has some of the most extreme examples. There are many examples of members documenting the use of both catch-cans and WMI still resulting in buildup. The only way to completely eliminate the possibility is VTA.

 

[rodmoe]

Yes if you put the oil catch can in the PCV line that never sees the turbo it will save your valves some as that is where it come into the intake from the cam cover right in front of valves 2 and 3 it never sees the turbo at all .. Perhaps you are thinking of the other line that feed the intake of the turbo ?

 

[dyn085]

Yes if you put the oil catch can in the PCV line that never sees the turbo it will save your valves some as that is where it come into the intake from the cam cover right in front of valves 2 and 3 it never sees the turbo at all .. Perhaps you are thinking of the other line that feed the intake of the turbo ?

No, that's not what I'm thinking at all. I'm talking about the entire pcv system. A catch-can can't catch the gas that builds up on the valves, regardless of how many you use or where they're placed because they don't catch what causes the problem. The absolute only way to 'fix' or 'eliminate' the problem is vta. Even if a catch-can were to reduce the issue it would most-likely be negligible in comparison to the OEM system.

Unfortunately, this is just a by-product of DI systems. Ford has tried to mitigate the issue by spraying the injectors slightly before the valves close, but as you can see it is still a very real issue within the Ecoboost community. It's not really 'if' as much as 'when' we well see the issue and to what degree.

Use a low-NOACK oil, good fuel, and do what you can to minimize the amount of time the engine has to run below operating temps (short-trips, etc). Take your car out on the interstate for a 30-minute drive occasionally. Don't baby the motor and use WOT (not everywhere, but within safe/reasonable situations). All of these things will help to reduce buildup.

I'm not saying to not use a catch-can, and maybe that's what people aren't understanding. What I'm saying is that the individual that goes and drops $xxx.xx on a system thinking it will negate them having to deal with the problem needs to be prepared to find out in the future that it doesn't.

And by all means, if in the future this is found to be the solution then feel free to remind me that I'm wrong now. I'm just saying that scientifically and historically we will come to the same conclusion that the other DI communities have come to, and that is that vta is the only true way to cure the issue.

You're going to have to have your valves cleaned (under the assumption Ford comes up with a cleaning solution to the problem) or head replaced, and that is a fact if you don't use vta. Do you want to chance that it occurs while your car is still under warranty or that you prolong it long enough to have to pay out of pocket?

 

[razorlab]

WOT all of the things, everywhere.

 

[westcoaST]

I always drive it like I stole it, especially when I get out of work. Brings a smile to my face, relieves tensions of the day, and cleans my valves, makes them minty fresh.