Modified stock turbo testing and results

[RAAMaudio]

NOTE:
This is about the stock turbo being modified to make more power, have a wider power band, a low cost way to improve your car and make it faster but also a great daily driver and fly under the weather if so needed. Other turbo options can be listed for comparison sake, a chart with each ones overall results would be a good idea but the primary purpose is not about those options so let's keep it on track.

Testing is still underway and being accomplished as quickly as possible and results will be posted when we have them available at whatever level is known at the time. Personally I hoped to have mine by the end of the week but with the Octane Academy tomorrow and a rainy weekend I fell behind as needed more miles on the car before running a higher level tune.

Mod options:
1) Larger compressor wheel, ported outlet and turbine inlet
2) Ported WG and turbine outlet
3) Ported manifold(much needed!)
4) 2.5" inlet elbow

Mine has all the above with #4 being DIY, I also did my own porting on the WG, turbine outlet and manifold which most anybody can do, highly recommended DIY route even on a stock turbo!

Pics to be posted as shortly.

Let's have some fun

Rick

 

[SecretSquirlTuned]

Thanks

 

[Hijinx]

Thanks, Rick, for the new thread. I may be going this route as I have some future goals I need to adjust my budget for. But, as with all things, time will tell. I'm looking forward to the final results.

To either, you (Rick) or SS: Any chances of a quick video for exhaust sound porn?

 

[rodmoe]

As always am watching with a keen interest ..

 

[nttdemented]

Hello, first post here, just got a FiST and I had to sign up just to ask this.

Didn't manage to read the entire previous thread but is this basically the Pumaspeed Stage2 Hybrid stock turbo upgrade? Or is it something similar that you and SS are fabricating?

 

[RAAMaudio]

Glad you did not read all that, we are going to take the best of it into the new thread, much easier to read, less to go over, none of the drama fat left......

This is by SS, I was the first to get it done to help test it out but my car was so far apart I am finally getting it ready to tune now. I am just supporting this great budget mod for others to enjoy as well as myself if it does all I need it to which I will find out as soon as the roads try up here, maybe today!

It is a higher level upgrade than the PS one, bigger compressor wheel and options for more porting and much lower cost, win, win, combination for our fellow enthusiasts

The real numbers will be out, soon, I am as excited as anybody to find out the results which seem like they are going to be very good indeed

This is the thread to watch.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/2839-Modified-stock-turbo-testing-and-results

 

[nttdemented]

So in the end what will the offering be? A compressor wheel and the buyer ports everything amd installs/tunes it himself or is it a turbine core trade in and SS does all the work and end user tunes it himself? What will we buy once its available? I'm pretty dead set on the PumaSpeed setup with Cobb and Mountune supporting mods around the intake side of things and maybe a downpipe.

 

[Harvick]

So in the end what will the offering be? A compressor wheel and the buyer ports everything amd installs/tunes it himself or is it a turbine core trade in and SS does all the work and end user tunes it himself? What will we buy once its available? I'm pretty dead set on the PumaSpeed setup with Cobb and Mountune supporting mods around the intake side of things and maybe a downpipe.

I think the plan is to do a core trade on the turbo and you can go to guys like Freektune for a custom tune. It's a cheaper alternative over the ATP/Pumaspeed setup but not a direct competition. Power is supposed to come on faster than the ATP/Pumaspeed kit. Right now everyone is waiting to see what kind of power RAAMaudio is going to put down.

 

[stuntdoogie]

This thread makes me all tingly inside...

 

[RAAMaudio]

This is still being sorted out but the basic plan is having options where you can do some of the work as in porting as very time consuming so a bit expensive to have done though SS is offering very very good prices for his work. The more you do the less expensive this gets and the better the results can be over the other offerings for less money, considerably less if done right.

The ATP setup would be a great deal more money and so far they have not shown much info about it, I would want to know much more considering the cost to go that route. It might be, with the newer turbo they now offer, the right package for your needs but not enough info on it to really tell, not on the SS setup yet as well so be a bit patient

This is not intended to be a competing system, it is intended to help those with smaller budgets and or need to keep things looking more stock for whatever reasons. I think we just might be more competitive in some ways than it may seem at this point though, sure anxious to find out!

 

[Sourskittle]

Here is the current list and options
(Price list here http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/showpost.php?p=43233 )

Stock inlet (notice the area around the inlet and how much material is left from the inlet to the bolt holes.

Pumaspeeds "51mm" compressor wheel. Again, note the amount of material from the inlet hole to the bolt holes.

This is the "Cyborg" turbo.
As you can see vs the other two, its got the maximum size compressor wheel that will fit. Its a custom billet compressor wheel.

Making a direct comparison, its almost scary.

We install all new bearings, seals, thrust bearing. The turbine wheel is then clipped to help relieve some of the back pressure on the exhaust side.

This is our turbine wheel stock. (The fiesta ST's ).

This is an example of a cyborg's turbine wheel.

The compressor cover is machined out and matched to the compressor wheel. Its not as simple as just milling the two simple inducer and exducer sizes. We there is a 3rd axis that is the real killer "the radius". Its represented as "c" in this picture. (Edit, my bad, C is the inducer, but you can see how there is a radius between the two simple measurements ).

We also port the compressor outlet by hand.

The cyborg turbo unit ready to bolt on is cheaper for the next 3 buyers. After these next 3 are sold, we will be asking a bit more.

Despite trying very hard to find a core, its just not happening. The car is too new and our KP39 is not common to older VW TDi's or volvo's that used a "KP39". If we get a chance to pick up a core, everyone on here will know ASAP about it. As it stands with the turbo unit, if we get your unit on a Monday, there is no reason we can't have it shipped to you by Friday at the latest. And will ship it as quickly as you want to pay for it to be shipped. We insure all shipments for $2000.
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Manifold/Turbine porting. fully ported and polished. Port sizes matched. Each pathway is stepped up in transition ( the manifold is bigger than the head, the turbine housing is bigger than the manifold). This is an area I feel completely happy leaving it to owners to port match. With around $100-$150 in tools/parts you CAN DO THIS yourselves. Its not rocket science. There are so sensitive areas. I would say you could do your own port matching and get around 60% of the effectiveness with 3-5 hours of solid work yourself. On the other hand.... As Rick/Raamaudio will attest, to really take this manifold and turbine to its best, its a job. I personally put over 12+ hours of solid, no-BS work into the last manifold I did. Rick also would agree that pictures do a poor job at showing how much these are improved.

Manifold outlet

turbine inlet

Other options.
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The stock wastegate has shown in testing, its just not upto the task. At 20.5-21psi with the rod COMPLETELY adjusted tight, its blowing the wastegate arm open. This leaves with two options. Only one is a real, long term, good solution. A new wastegate. Treadstone sells a aftermarket wastegate for $49.99 that is for a borg warner EFR and has a 19psi spring in it. Our stock spring has 5psi. We have currently not confirmed it as a direct bolt-on, but at worst case, its one hole to be drilled. If we have your turbo charger, fitting the new wastegate will be free. The other option is not a reliable permanent solution, currently all units that are driving around are using a 2nd spring to help hold the wastegate closed. I extremely highly recommend buying the new wastegate. I believe Rick may have ordered his EFR wastegate already (but I'm not positive at this time).
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Another option. The stock inlet, its just a bad joke imo. Pumaspeed sells a nice inlet for around $320 shipped to the USA and its also "built to order" and by their website, it sometimes takes weeks. I personally do no build, profit, or stock this inlet. I have my best friend build them. He/we are currently building a set of 5. Of the 5 being built, 4 are already spoken for. They are stainless steel, tig welded and semi-polished.

This really is sad.

Pumaspeed's inlet is 46mm, ours is 48mm ( but who's counting ).

and its built to connect to stock or aftermarket air intakes.
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Last option is the wastegate disk. Stock disk is 33mm. The size of the stock disk is not really the issue. The issue is that the porting bits can not get into the wastegate hole for porting as effectively with the disk in the way. We order a 34mm disk ( which means its an option we need to know about ahead of time ), and we remove the stock disk and port even more into the wastegate hole and it really lets us work on the radius of the turn. My car currently runs the stock disk, all the other units we have driving around right now have the bigger disk. Its not a deal breaker, it is an option.

You can see the extra sealing surface not used by the stock disk

With the bigger disk the entire wastegate hole surface is used.

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Tuning

#1 I'm no Pro tuner. 1 or 2 guys on this forum can attest to that. But, I have been hard at work using access tuner with some really good results. If you have access tuner ( $150 via cobb ) then I will be more than happy to share my tunes and any info I can to you and/or your tuner of choice if they'd like my input.

That being said, my car is mostly stock other than the turbo-back exhaust and I made 204whp and 236tq at the wheels on a cold turkey 100% cobb OTS stg3 93oct tune. Corrected for my large 235/40/17 tires an extremely smart guy said its more like 212whp ( 8whp because of tire size and gear ratio difference ). That's also in Florida, in the middle of the day, while had just got done raining ( extremely poor air for power ).

With my own tuning and a tiny bit of help from a tuner, I've managed to get boost to run 26.5-26psi tappering to 20psi at 6200rpms and about 18.5-19psi at redline in Florida air ( cooler temps would likely see higher), and I'm also using the stock intercooler.

I need to take better pics of my dyno sheet ( I only the one for 202whp ). I was trying to compare mine to some of the other stock turbo guys with mods/tunes. Seems like you can see an obvious pick up in the way power sticks around after peak horsepower is made. I'll try to get better pics up soon, but be gentle it was on a OTS stock cobb tune

 

[MKVIIST]

Don't you have to be a vendor to advertise and post prices?

Yes you have to be a vendor to post prices on the open forum and we do offer free vendor status to anyone that wants to sell here. For instance if you wanted to sell your tuning service here, you can do so for free.

In addition we also allow regular and staff members to do group buys in the Member Group Buys forum without having to become a Vendor. I completely agree with you that the above post should not have contained any pricing because we asked that all posts mentioning the sale of products be confined in the proper forum, similar to No-Piston's pedal thread. So most likely we'll just move it there or edit it to remove the pricing so that it falls within the rules.

That said, I want to provide a little bit of insight so everyone is on the same page as to the dynamics of this kit being sold here. Sourskittle came to me a few months back stating that he is trying to convince the turbo shop that he works at to allow him to research ways of extracting more power from the stock turbo. And if this works, this would offer an easy and more affordable solution for the ST community and benefit all of us as a whole. I told him as long as he can broker up a great deal, make all of his R&D transparent for all to see and remain impartial to other turbo solutions, we would be okay with letting him do a group buy. We also discussed that if he wants to start selling these kits full time for the company, his status would be switched over to full-time Vendor rather than being a staff member. I know most members don't care about this entire back story, but I want to at least put out there just in case there were any doubts as to why a fellow staff member would be allowed to do a group buy. The short answer is that we want to do our best to help stimulate a grassroots movement to provide more products and support for Fiesta ST community. Even if this means allowing free vendors.

I know it was a long winded answer to your short question, but I wanted to address the other PMs I received from you earlier. I'd be more than happy to answer any other questions and we are working hard behind the scenes to continue to make this a great community.

 

[Sourskittle]

Mostly stock, turbo-back exhaust. 100% off-the shelf cobb stage3 93oct tune. Just flash the tune and drive.

The two things to look at. (Most importantly) look at the topend and how it makes peak horsepower and keeps most of it as the rpms keep climbing. The 2nd think is the huge torque spike is gone. Those 250+ tq spikes look good on a dyno at 2800rpms and they are fun for selling cars with how it FEELS. But its hardly relevant to overall speed, its hard on driveline parts long term, and it destroys expensive tires that would other wise have traction. It also stresses the rods to have that kind of load at such a low rpm and as Alex of Stratified as pointed out on the focus ST, it really can create a bad a spot when using E30/E50/E85 because the high-pressure fuel pump is rpm dependent and it can't keep up the volume for those fuels at such a low RPM. So the way the boost is applied is much easier on the motor, driveline, and tires, while still keeping overall speed ( ever shift from 5800rpms to 2800rpms while racing ? NO ).

 

[razorlab]

Even though my personal tune is not even close to done, I hope to be hitting the Dyno Saturday Evening I'm expecting at least 204whp, lol. I really have no idea...

When you dyno next, can you have them scale the torque and hp axis the same so it's like a normal dyno sheet with hp and tq crossing at 5252. It's easier to see how the torque curve is in relation to the horsepower that way.

In your example above, the torque peak curve would be higher than the horsepower peak curve if the axis where the same scale.

You can even ask them for the dynojet run file. Then you can download dynojet's dyno software (free) and scale and overlay to your hearts content.

 

[Sourskittle]

I'll ask them for that. They seemed like they were maybe learning on the dyno for the software at the time I was there. Maybe not... They had some cool cars there. Maybe they just didn't care because
Its a fiesta... I agree. Looking like that makes it odd to look at. I would prefer a file myself over a print out. I'd really love if they could figure in tire size as well. Prob the wrong smoothing setting as well?
I'm not a dyno operator, due to its cost, all my testing is normally based off track times.
I'll see what I can do though

 

[razorlab]

Tire size doesn't matter on a real dyno when RPM is used for roller/car sync, unless you drive down the road without tires?

 

[Hijinx]

Tire size doesn't matter on a real dyno when RPM is used for roller/car sync, unless you drive down the road without tires?

If roller speed is used, it will show lower numbers?

 

[Sourskittle]

Tire size doesn't matter on a real dyno when RPM is used for roller/car sync, unless you drive down the road without tires?

Your saying a car with a different gear ratio ( not 1:1 ) and 45lbs tire/wheels vs 30lbs tire and wheels will not make a difference it driveline lose from transmitting power X engine power to the ground?...

 

[Sourskittle]

And I have no idea if they are using roller/speed sync dyno or what ever. Like I said, I'm not a dyno operator. Really, the numbers mean a lot less than the shape of the curves anyway. We all know every dyno is different.

If I wanted to play "dyno wars", I'd at least be point to Ricks car, lol. I'm running a stock intercooler in florida, jn the Summer with a stock 18,500 oem air filter.

 

[D1JL]

I'm still waiting for a core and the inlet elbow.


Dave