E85?

[SecretSquirlTuned]

im talking with my Parts department manager today to see if the fuel system components between the FiST and fusion FlexFuel 1.6EB are compatible or close enough to be utilized in converting our little FiST over to E85 capable and if so I already have the Cobb AP so I will buy the tuning software and start working on developing a True E85 tune!

 

[SecretSquirlTuned]

ok so the Fusion 1.6EB HPFP part# is DG9Z-9H307-Y
And the FiST 1.6EB HPFP Part# is D2BZ-9H307-D

On the parts schematic diagram they look 100% identical so I have one of each ordered as stock units for my dealership so I can bust out the Micrometer and start doing some measuring to see if the key areas involved with this being a direct swap match up. The sending units in the two cars from the tank are the same so no problems there. The biggest hurdle will be this HPFP conversion, if we can get past this step (Fingers Crossed) then the light at the end of the tunnel is Bright and Near!!!!

 

[SecretSquirlTuned]

These two part #s (DG9Z-9H307-Y)....( D2BZ-9H307-D)
Are for the DI injectors on our cars Fusion 1.6EB and FiST!!!!!!The injection pump itself on top of the motor is the exact same between the two motors Part# (BM5Z-9350-A)
Soooo as long as the injectors are interchangeable between the two motors then we are already 100% ready to run E85 in our cars all but the Tuning!

ok so the Fusion 1.6EB HPFP part# is DG9Z-9H307-Y
And the FiST 1.6EB HPFP Part# is D2BZ-9H307-D

On the parts schematic diagram they look 100% identical so I have one of each ordered as stock units for my dealership so I can bust out the Micrometer and start doing some measuring to see if the key areas involved with this being a direct swap match up. The sending units in the two cars from the tank are the same so no problems there. The biggest hurdle will be this HPFP conversion, if we can get past this step (Fingers Crossed) then the light at the end of the tunnel is Bright and Near!!!!

 

[ryst]

These two part #s (DG9Z-9H307-Y)....( D2BZ-9H307-D)
Are for the DI injectors on our cars Fusion 1.6EB and FiST!!!!!!The injection pump itself on top of the motor is the exact same between the two motors Part# (BM5Z-9350-A)
Soooo as long as the injectors are interchangeable between the two motors then we are already 100% ready to run E85 in our cars all but the Tuning!

There still *could* be a flow capacity issue when you're running 220 horsepower+ on E85.

But I'm still very excited

 

[SecretSquirlTuned]

Well that could be true but we don't know that yet, But for the most part any vehicle capable of running E85 or FlexFuel already has a over qualified fuel system to begin with to allow for a set amount of flow and value tolerances determined by climate and conditions. So if everything (CAN) be swapped over I don't think Flow rate/volume is our biggest concern, That will be Tuning which I will get to if everything else falls in place.

There still *could* be a flow capacity issue when you're running 220 horsepower+ on E85.

But I'm still very excited

 

[Sourskittle]

I don't think it can supply the volume for a tuned fist on E85. Simple math says....
Full bolt on fist with a stock turbo should make 220whp on E85 (at least). Well... Basicly double the horsepower number and that is what your fuel system needs to be built for. Is out STOCK fuel system built to handle 440whp ? I don't think so...

Now... E50... Roughly 50% more power from the 220whp number is only 330whp of volume. ATP has already proven, our fuel system can do 310whp so I'd imagine 330whp isn't much of a stretch.

I hope I'm wrong. But the focus guys are worried about there stock fuel system at 380whp (gas). I think we are being a little hopeful to think our cars can supply enough power for 440whp(E85) (aka 220whp on gas).

But... Randy or secertsquirrel or someone with surely let us know soon...

 

[SecretSquirlTuned]

Just FYI the 2.0EB in the FoST has same part# fuel DI pump as us so I would not count this out yet!!!

I don't think it can supply the volume for a tuned fist on E85. Simple math says....
Full bolt on fist with a stock turbo should make 220whp on E85 (at least). Well... Basicly double the horsepower number and that is what your fuel system needs to be built for. Is out STOCK fuel system built to handle 440whp ? I don't think so...

Now... E50... Roughly 50% more power from the 220whp number is only 330whp of volume. ATP has already proven, our fuel system can do 310whp so I'd imagine 330whp isn't much of a stretch.

I hope I'm wrong. But the focus guys are worried about there stock fuel system at 380whp (gas). I think we are being a little hopeful to think our cars can supply enough power for 440whp(E85) (aka 220whp on gas).

But... Randy or secertsquirrel or someone with surely let us know soon...

 

[Sourskittle]

Just FYI the 2.0EB in the FoST has same part# fuel DI pump as us so I would not count this out yet!!!

Told you the first day we met that I hoped that was the case. If its the same fuel system, we have a real good shot then.

Anything above the stock turbo us SOL, lol

 

[razorlab]

I don't think it can supply the volume for a tuned fist on E85. Simple math says....
Full bolt on fist with a stock turbo should make 220whp on E85 (at least). Well... Basicly double the horsepower number and that is what your fuel system needs to be built for. Is out STOCK fuel system built to handle 440whp ? I don't think so...

Now... E50... Roughly 50% more power from the 220whp number is only 330whp of volume. ATP has already proven, our fuel system can do 310whp so I'd imagine 330whp isn't much of a stretch.

I hope I'm wrong. But the focus guys are worried about there stock fuel system at 380whp (gas). I think we are being a little hopeful to think our cars can supply enough power for 440whp(E85) (aka 220whp on gas).

But... Randy or secertsquirrel or someone with surely let us know soon...

You aren't going to be making 440whp on E85 with the stock turbo. If I had to guess, with using my E85 experience, I bet E85 will allow about 10-20whp peak more than pump gas with the stock turbo, and all those gains will be with ignition timing as the stock turbo is pretty much tapped out on pump gas already up top. But yes, upgrading the turbo and all bets are off. I did see that there are larger injectors avail for the FoST now though, 1200cc DI.

My Evo 10 has a stock turbo almost twice the size lb/min wise of the FiST, and tuning on E85 netted about 50whp/50wtq gains over 91 octane with the same power mods, and about 100whp over bone stock. That is inline with other Evo 10's I've tuned on the same mods.

Either way, I'm doing this anyway, so it will be interesting to see the results on the FiST.

For more info on the 10: http://forums.evolutionm.net/evo-x-dyno-results/675792-razorlabs-simple-build-s.html

And 130whp over stock after adding a couple other mods on E85:

 

[ryst]

You aren't going to be making 440whp on E85 with the stock turbo. [/IMG]

I think what he meant was if you're making 220 horsepower on E85 you need the same amount of fuel as if you are running 440 horsepower on pump gas. Referring to the capacity of the fuel system.

 

[Sourskittle]

I think what he meant was if you're making 220 horsepower on E85 you need the same amount of fuel as if you are running 440 horsepower on pump gas. Referring to the capacity of the fuel system.

You got it

I know... Its easy to get confused.

Samething when talking about mixing E30 verse buying E30.

 

[Sourskittle]

Also, not to be the negative guy... But...
The HP pump runs off the cam.
When the cam is turning a relatively low RPM, lets say 2800rpms, its actually not capable of flowing anywhere near the same amount as it can at 6500rpms. Right? Its not electric. Its engine rpms dependent.

Now... We may only make 220whp right?
What about torque? We're in the 280TQ area already without E85 on our side. But will stick with 280tq on gas.

Now... Double that torque number because like before, E85 takes ROUGHLY ROUGHLY double the volume at the same power level. Now we are at 560Tq of fuel volume.

560ft lbs of torque.... At 2800rpms. The pump is turning slow (compared to its max rpm/flow) and we are asking for a 560tq gasoline output like flow rate (while making 280Tq on E85).

I'm not saying it is a lost cause, lol. Its not. I'm just saying the extremely rough and crude "guess-work" calculations say we really need to tread lightly on E85.

Also more reason to start with E30 and E50 first

You guys may wonder why its ok for the 1.6L ecoboost fusion and escape to use E85... They are tuned to a much lower spec.

We see stock manual trans ST's dyno at 180whp ( is that fair?).
So... Figure at least 15hp less on the other cars. Call it 170whp to be nice. 170whp x 2 = 340whp. And that's being generous I think. So those car's lower overall output means they can stay within the flow limits, and this is also very much so with the torque values.

Wouldn 't it be cool to track and dyno test the same fusion 1.6 ecoboost on 87oct, then switch it over to E85 for 50 miles and re-do the test. I think it would be interesting

Also... Our range on E85 would be like... 45miles, lmao.

 

[Harvick]

Great work SecretSquirlTuned, this is exciting to see. +Repped Added.

These two part #s (DG9Z-9H307-Y)....( D2BZ-9H307-D)
Are for the DI injectors on our cars Fusion 1.6EB and FiST!!!!!!The injection pump itself on top of the motor is the exact same between the two motors Part# (BM5Z-9350-A)
Soooo as long as the injectors are interchangeable between the two motors then we are already 100% ready to run E85 in our cars all but the Tuning!

 

[ryst]

Also, not to be the negative guy... But...
The HP pump runs off the cam.
When the cam is turning a relatively low RPM, lets say 2800rpms, its actually not capable of flowing anywhere near the same amount as it can at 6500rpms. Right? Its not electric. Its engine rpms dependent.

Now... We may only make 220whp right?
What about torque? We're in the 280TQ area already without E85 on our side. But will stick with 280tq on gas.

Now... Double that torque number because like before, E85 takes ROUGHLY ROUGHLY double the volume at the same power level. Now we are at 560Tq of fuel volume.

560ft lbs of torque.... At 2800rpms. The pump is turning slow (compared to its max rpm/flow) and we are asking for a 560tq gasoline output like flow rate (while making 280Tq on E85).

I'm not saying it is a lost cause, lol. Its not. I'm just saying the extremely rough and crude "guess-work" calculations say we really need to tread lightly on E85.

Also more reason to start with E30 and E50 first

You guys may wonder why its ok for the 1.6L ecoboost fusion and escape to use E85... They are tuned to a much lower spec.

We see stock manual trans ST's dyno at 180whp ( is that fair?).
So... Figure at least 15hp less on the other cars. Call it 170whp to be nice. 170whp x 2 = 340whp. And that's being generous I think. So those car's lower overall output means they can stay within the flow limits, and this is also very much so with the torque values.

Wouldn 't it be cool to track and dyno test the same fusion 1.6 ecoboost on 87oct, then switch it over to E85 for 50 miles and re-do the test. I think it would be interesting

Also... Our range on E85 would be like... 45miles, lmao.

What's the most effective way to monitor injector duty? Do we have a monitor on the APv3?

 

[Sourskittle]

Also price is a concern of mine determining if this will be a affordable option to everyone, worst case scenario could end up just running one of these piggy back style.http://www.jegs.com/p/AEM/AEM-E85-High-Flow-In-Tank-Fuel-Pump/2847648/10002/-1

The tank/lift pump is a very small piece of the system. The high pressure pump and injectors maybe the weakest link. If they are, you'd be replacing the in-tank pump for no reason.

On the flipside... If the in-tank pump is the weakest link, adding an in-line pump or replacing the in-tank pump maybe enough to get by on E85 assuming we can't already with a stock turbo.

 

[razorlab]

I think what he meant was if you're making 220 horsepower on E85 you need the same amount of fuel as if you are running 440 horsepower on pump gas. Referring to the capacity of the fuel system.

It's about 25-30% more flow capability needed for 75-85% Ethanol

Now... We may only make 220whp right?
What about torque? We're in the 280TQ area already without E85 on our side. But will stick with 280tq on gas.

Now... Double that torque number because like before, E85 takes ROUGHLY ROUGHLY double the volume at the same power level. Now we are at 560Tq of fuel volume.

560ft lbs of torque.... At 2800rpms. The pump is turning slow (compared to its max rpm/flow) and we are asking for a 560tq gasoline output like flow rate (while making 280Tq on E85).

Also... Our range on E85 would be like... 45miles, lmao.

You don't double the output. I know you said roughly but see my input from experience above.

Also, you can obviously change tuning strategy on E85, you don't need to always shoot for the moon and for a FWD you don't want to tune in a ton of torque down low anyway or it's just useless. Looks cool on a dyno, but just becomes frustrating on the street.

On a well thought through E85 tune, the mileage drop isn't as bad as people think. About 5-10less mpg depending on tune, engine and most importantly, driving style. E85 mileage is very dependent on that. HWY cruising when you can run optimized tuning and lean burn, you drop about 4-5mpg over pump gas. Which isn't bad as all. Around town driving it drops more and obviously if you are driving hard, it drops even more.

 

[Sourskittle]

You and secertsquirrel have experience on me there
E85 was never a thought when I had my srt4, but now i'm all about it. I'm just shooting off random numbers anyway. We have little real data on what the focus or fiesta fuel systems can handle.

I am very sure I will be in on testing

 

[JohnzyST]

I don't look at TQ values when doing calculations on HP/Fuel rate/flow/volume. etc.... because TQ is a bi product of making HP!!! I have had SRT4s on stock fuel sytem+ a $95 Walbro255 make 250whp 380wtq and then same motor/fuel setup with oversized turbo make 375whp 320wtq the main decider is HP when it comes to fuel needs, there are a lot of other concerns that need to be addressed first before we find out if this will work on a modded FiST! Worst case its not enough Fuel to run E85 on a bolt on tuned FiST it still leaves us with enough Fuel to make a minimum of 400whp on 93oct pump gas for the guys that get the turbo upgrades and want more. Who knows this could be where ATP is at now seeing how they have enough turbo to make more power but havnt yet!

with the size of our stock turbos our hp numbers will always be lower than torque. I am looking for a conservative tune on a better fuel.
I didn't expect this much information! THANK YOU GUYS!
looks like it would be fine to run e85, but after talking to the tuner over at montune he told me he delvelop a e30 tune that would just be e85 mixed with 91. not sure what the mixture % is yet, but should be a lot better than 91 and hopefully make more power.

on my buddies evoX we only did injectors, relay and full pump to run e85 and it makes about 60whp more than his 91 tune. I am not sure if we will see such a difference in our tune.

 

[JohnzyST]

You and secertsquirrel have experience on me there
E85 was never a thought when I had my srt4, but now i'm all about it. I'm just shooting off random numbers anyway. We have little real data on what the focus or fiesta fuel systems can handle.

I am very sure I will be in on testing

you need to run e85 on a car man! you will never go back to 91. especially if you have a turbo car.
not sure if I would run e85 on the ST until after someone else did and didn't break anything. This car is my weekend warrior so doesn't see too much track time and I don't want to break my daily driver lol

 

[Sourskittle]

I've already ran E30 with cobb's stage1 and stage3 tunes with good results. But its not TUNED for max power on E30 and E50 I think could really let us run stage3 boost with stage1 timing ( aka high boost, high timing ).