Livernois Motorsports Tune +18hp / +65tq

[stormcrow]

So in light of what you were saying, can you state what's wrong with my graph?

My lines from today are almost identical in linear motion to that of my stock pulls. So if you could explain more of what I'm supposed to be looking for it would be most appreciated.

Actually, they may seem similar, but they are not. The stock tune looks a bit rough, too, but notice how you lose power at 3000 RPMs within the aftermarket tune? The horsepower plains out and then jumps back up nearly 30hp in 500 RPMs from 3000-3500; whereas your stock pull has a slight dip in hp around 2800, but is still climbing in a linear fashion. Also, the output text completely covers the new dyno pulls' torque-curves, so I can't see what it's doing. But, on the original graph you posted, note how you drop torque at 3000RPMs and then it spikes back up? It seems to hit the 280ish mark, then drop to the 250ish mark at 3000 RPMs, then back up to 280ish. This is also noted in the hp drop at the exact same RPM. This is not good. The horsepower and torque curves should be much smoother than this. Something is happening at 3k with your tune that is causing power and torque to be pulled. As shown in my example graphs, the hp and torque curves should be smooth lines that rise (in a linear fashion), peak, then fall. Rough, ragged, jagged "heart monitor" type graphs indicate a rough/poor tune. (unless, as stated previously, there are issues with the dyno's rollers or wheel-slip. An improperly strapped vehicle can show dips like this at peak torque due to wheel-slip. However, the Fiesta doesn't make enough torque for this. OR if the dyno operator didn't disable the ESC...) Especially if high levels of smoothing have been added and the graphs still aren't smooth. I'm not saying your tune is horrible. But, from the graphs, there are certainly issues at 3k.

Edit: these seem to be the same pulls. So, scrap my new graph wording.

 

[OffTheWall503]

Thanks for your input. I will talk to Livernois and see what they say about it.

 

[stormcrow]

Thanks for your input. I will talk to Livernois and see what they say about it.

No worries. I wasn't certain that you were running their tune. But their posted graph that I quoted earlier looks exactly like yours with the issues at 3000 RPMs. So, yes, I would definitely ask what's going on there as it's not good.

Also, being that both graphs are so similar, it rules out something happening outside of the tune such as wheel-slip. So the dip in hp and torque are definitely tune related.

 

[fST]

That is briefly discussed on page 4 and 24 of this thread. Here is what Livernois said in regards to the oscillations:

On page 24: http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...ne-65tq-amp-18hp?p=28035&viewfull=1#post28035

This is present in all EcoBoost cars, if you look at the graphs stock and modified they always have that slightly. It's nothing you feel in the car, just something the dyno is sensitive enough to pick up on.

On page 4 Cobb Tuning brought up the oscillations among other things. Livernois' response was:

We definitely have spent the better part of nearly 6 years diving into the EcoBoost family of engines head first. Obviously, I do not know what you have personally seen, but as with all EcoBoost engines, there is a massive amount of room for improvement in the Low and middle range, while not as much left up top, until serious mods start happening. This car is no exception. We have seen the confusion associated with our results before on other platforms as people enter the EcoBoost arena for tuning, these engines are unique, as is their tuning logic. When we first had people join us on the SHO, F150, Explorer, Flex, Escape, and Fusion, many times people were in disbelief, that is of course, until they tried it out first hand. We always try our best to put factual and accurate information out for our customer's to view, while never making any negative comments towards other's results, and of course, appreciate the same.

Later in page 4, in response to Sourskittle saying:

On the consistency side... I wouldn't doubt at all if the ecu dropped the boost back down after these pulls. That wastegate duty cycle adapts FAST.

Livernois responded with:

If we had not done the proper calibration associated around increasing the boost, I would agree, the computer would limit the boost back. But with how many EcoBoost platforms we support, we know how to control boost As for spark vs. boost. They are complimentary to each other. They both need adjustments to ensure the best results.

I'll have to compare other peoples' FiST dyno graphs to see if this is in fact common.

This is what Livernois said in regards to their remote tune working in a car in any condition:

And the way we setup the tunes the conditions won't matter. We tune it for all conditions so whether it's 100 and 80% humidity at sea level, or 30 and 4800 ft, the tune is optimized. This is what I mean about having the tune actually figured out. You only have to tweak for conditions like that if you didn't setup the tune right in the first place. EcoBoost vehicles don't tune like other cars, and that is where we excel at, we understand how to tune them so they are always optimized. Older cars, or even different cars can vary drastically, even when tuned properly, but when an EcoBoost is tuned correctly, there is no need, nor benefit to changing everything.

 

[stormcrow]

That is briefly discussed on page 4 and 24 of this thread. Here is what Livernois said in regards to the oscillations:

On page 24: http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...ne-65tq-amp-18hp?p=28035&viewfull=1#post28035



On page 4 Cobb Tuning brought up the oscillations among other things. Livernois' response was:



Later in page 4, in response to Sourskittle saying:



Livernois responded with:



I'll have to compare other peoples' FiST dyno graphs to see if this is in fact common.

This is what Livernois said in regards to their remote tune working in a car in any condition:

Annnndd this is why I wouldn't believe anything they say. "Our tunes are magical and no one can tune the way we do. Our tunes shouldn't be smooth and we can surely lose and gain 30 footpound of torque in 500 RPM. That's normal and a part of an EcoBoost tune. Cobb, you don't know what you're talking about. We've tuned SHOs and F150s." I'm paraphrasing of course. But this goes back to what I said about not buying snake-oil and vendors words when they claim their hardware and software work outside the laws of physics.

I'm in no way being a braggart, but I've built and tuned a 600whp Greddy twin-turbo 350Z with the HKS FCON. A Stillen super-charged Pathfinder. The world's first twin-turbo 370Z Nismo. An R35 GT-R using Cobb AP. A BMW 135i with Cobb AP. A Vortech supercharged G35 with Osirus Uprev. And I can tell you that even though they are all very dissimilar on the types of engine management used, they all had one thing in common - the tune was never "oscillating". Take that for what you will.

 

[fST]

Annnndd this is why I wouldn't believe anything they say. "Our tunes are magical and no one can tune the way we do. Our tunes shouldn't be smooth and we can surely lose and gain 30 footpound of torque in 500 RPM. That's normal and a part of an EcoBoost tune. Cobb, you don't know what you're talking about. We've tuned SHOs and F150s." I'm paraphrasing of course. But this goes back to what I said about not buying snake-oil and vendors words when they claim their hardware and software work outside the laws of physics.

I'm in no way being a braggart, but I've built and tuned a 600whp Greddy twin-turbo 350Z with the HKS FCON. A Stillen super-charged Pathfinder. The world's first twin-turbo 370Z Nismo. An R35 GT-R using Cobb AP. A BMW 135i with Cobb AP. A Vortech supercharged G35 with Osirus Uprev. And I can tell you that even though they are all very dissimilar on the types of engine management used, they all had one thing in common - the tune was never "oscillating". Take that for what you will.

I just went through the dyno thread. There are at least a few that have the same dip at around the same RPM. Some are just as pronounced, some are smoother. Some have graphs that hardly have any dips.

Here's one in particular that is tuned by Adam at Tune+...

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/1201-Fiesta-ST-Dyno-Thread?p=159110&viewfull=1#post159110

Here's a link to his YouTube video of it with a bigger graph shown at the end: https://youtu.be/NzkWe0IM-A4

Identical dip, it appears.

 

[stormcrow]

I just went through the dyno thread. There are at least a few that have the same dip at around the same RPM. Some are just as pronounced, some are smoother. Some have graphs that hardly have any dips.

Here's one in particular that is tuned by Adam at Tune+...

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/1201-Fiesta-ST-Dyno-Thread?p=159110&viewfull=1#post159110

Here's a link to his YouTube video of it with a bigger graph shown at the end.

Identical dip, it appears.

Maybe Adam can shed some light on the one tune having pulled torque at seemingly the same RPM. I am not a calibrator and cannot elaborate on what happened there. All I can say, with some authority, is that it's not correct. It doesn't matter the engine platform you're tuning; significant dips in the torque and/or horsepower curves throughout the power-band indicates an issue of some sort - tune, operator, or dyno.

 

[LILIKE16ST]

I wish Livernois would come in here and talk to us and shed some light that would be fantastic. I'm not sure what the issues are with this tune all I know is ive ran their 93 tune for about 2 months and 3200 miles and I haven't had any kind of issues....cars runs smooth as silk at any rpm drives like stock when crusing and I pulled 29.5 mpg twice on an entire tank with about a 50/50 mix city highway and getting in it occasionally....and my last tank I was able to pull over 30 mpg same type driving and my best before tune was in the 27-28 range. Since I tuned it at 2800 miles some of this could be attributed to the car just breaking in some more and getting better mpg but it seemed to me to improve some soon as I put the tune on the car. Car pulls strong to 6500 rpm and is night and day from stock in all aspects. I haven't heard any kind of out of the way noises like knocking pingjng or experienced anything negative whatsoever only positive things. I don't regret going with this tune one bit. These guys have been truning eco boost cars since 2009 and are known in the mustang world as well as one of the better tuners. They get great results from everything they do. I think some just want to try to find fault whenever good results are achieved. Nay sayers. I would like some of these questions answered just out of curiousity.and so there can be some light shed on this for everyone around....

 

[LILIKE16ST]

They explained it before saying that dip is more of a thing that just shows up on a dyno graph that isn't really indicative of something that will effect real world driving. Cobb tuning brought it up too while back. I am hoping LMS will chime in in response to these latest posts last couple days. I don't beleive they are trying to claim some type of magic just that they have a lot of experience under their belt tuning ecoboost cars and what they like. I beleive as far as the comment on the tune learning to compensate for light bolt on parts its not really the tune learning its just the tune giving the ecu ability to compensate. I am far from an expert but this is how I took it. I'm not sure all I know is I like the car much better in every way after the tune it pulls a lot harder and is noticeably quicker and I have not experienced any issues. I have not got a chance to do any dyno pulls with mine but I plan to sooner or later in the future.

 

[stormcrow]

They explained it before saying that dip is more of a thing that just shows up on a dyno graph that isn't really indicative of something that will effect real world driving. Cobb tuning brought it up too while back. I am hoping LMS will chime in in response to these latest posts last couple days. I don't beleive they are trying to claim some type of magic just that they have a lot of experience under their belt tuning ecoboost cars and what they like. I beleive as far as the comment on the tune learning to compensate for light bolt on parts its not really the tune learning its just the tune giving the ecu ability to compensate. I am far from an expert but this is how I took it. I'm not sure all I know is I like the car much better in every way after the tune it pulls a lot harder and is noticeably quicker and I have not experienced any issues. I have not got a chance to do any dyno pulls with mine but I plan to sooner or later in the future.

I believe you're speaking to this quote:

This is present in all EcoBoost cars, if you look at the graphs stock and modified they always have that slightly. It's nothing you feel in the car, just something the dyno is sensitive enough to pick up on.

Which, too me, points out one of the very reasons I would not take Livernois at their word. Note their posted graph:

Also note OffTheWall503's posted graph:

On both there is a significant loss of torque, after it has been built, at 3000RPMs. Now you tell me, would you be able to feel 25lbs of lost torque when it goes away and comes back? That's nearly the equivalent of the torque gains in a Stage 1 tune. For Livernois to say that's insignificant and unable to be felt is quite the claim.

Look, I have made the posts in this thread that I have to try and help. I've been through the ringer with tuners in the past. I know the games they play. I know the hype they will spread to make a dollar. I know that NONE of them are above reproach. Cobb had every right to call Livernois out on their BS. And I can promise you one thing - if Cobb brings up something in regard to another vendor, there is a very valid reason. The sad fact is, many tuners and shops will simply overlook the bullsh!t that other tuners and shops put out there. This is due to the fact that every shop and tuner has skeletons and no one wants to bring those out of the closet. That's why you see so many ridiculous claims here (and on every other forum on every other platform) that go unchallenged. Do your due diligence. Educate yourself on tuning and reading graphs and logs. Had I of done so in the past, I would have saved myself literally hundreds of thousands of dollars, a lot of grief, and a tremendous amount of frustration.

 

[Sam4]

They explained it before saying that dip is more of a thing that just shows up on a dyno graph that isn't really indicative of something that will effect real world driving. Cobb tuning brought it up too while back. I am hoping LMS will chime in in response to these latest posts last couple days. I don't beleive they are trying to claim some type of magic just that they have a lot of experience under their belt tuning ecoboost cars and what they like. I beleive as far as the comment on the tune learning to compensate for light bolt on parts its not really the tune learning its just the tune giving the ecu ability to compensate. I am far from an expert but this is how I took it. I'm not sure all I know is I like the car much better in every way after the tune it pulls a lot harder and is noticeably quicker and I have not experienced any issues. I have not got a chance to do any dyno pulls with mine but I plan to sooner or later in the future.

Thanks for your posts Lilike16ST, I'm expecting my LMS tuner in UPS today. I appreciate the affirmation of the fact that you enjoy the car much more with than without. I'll probably never get close to a dyno, so it'll have to be the ol' buttdyno doing its job.

 

[fST]

Maybe Adam can shed some light on the one tune having pulled torque at seemingly the same RPM. I am not a calibrator and cannot elaborate on what happened there. All I can say, with some authority, is that it's not correct. It doesn't matter the engine platform you're tuning; significant dips in the torque and/or horsepower curves throughout the power-band indicates an issue of some sort - tune, operator, or dyno.

I asked him. Here is his response:

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/1201-Fiesta-ST-Dyno-Thread?p=167110&viewfull=1#post167110

Could be two things:

1.) Wastegate snap - This could be a result of the wastegate snapping back and forth due to the weak spring in the stock actuator. Peak boost is when it is working the hardest to go from "spooling" to "controlling" and the wastegate will open and close from rapid movement causing the boost to wave at this point.

2.) ETC Closure - This is more than likely what you are seeing. Most datalogs for tuning are done in 3rd gear for safety on the street, 4th gear is what is mostly used on the dyno. The higher gear creates greater load which can cause a little bit of "extra" boost. The ETC will close if load or tip is clipped to keep everything in check.

That dip will not be prevalent on the street as you will never have the need to floor it in 4th gear at 1,500rpms. This scenario will only be present on a dyno.

Hope that helps.

 

[stuntdoogie]

Flooring it in 4th at 1500rpm is dangerous aint it?

 

[OffTheWall503]

I was about to post what Adam shared. Thanks [MENTION=2672]fST[/MENTION].

 

[stormcrow]

I asked him. Here is his response:

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/1201-Fiesta-ST-Dyno-Thread?p=167110&viewfull=1#post167110

So according to Adam, this is a hardware issue. Boost spike brought on by load being mitigated by either ETC closure OR a weak wastegate spring "snapping back and forth". The ETC closure makes sense; the weak wastegate spring snapping back and forth does not. This isn't how a wastegate spring works. If there is enough pressure to fully open the wastegate, the spring is not going to "snap back and forth". It will remain opened bleeding boost pressure until boost is below the spring's pressure rating.

That said, all of this could and should be tuned out. There's a way to keep the boost from spiking so quickly; even under load. Adam is right that not many will go WOT in 4th from 1500RPM. But, how many of us will go WOT from 2000-2500? I know I do. This affect would certainly be felt in 4th gear in this scenario. Tuners could advance the timing a bit in these areas to keep negative timing from spooling the turbo so quickly. That's just one way to approach it. Again, if people are OK with their tune dipping and rising +/- 25ftlbs of torque across the power-band, that's their prerogative. I simply am not.

Many thanks for asking Adam since Livernois hasn't been around to address the question.

 

[LILIKE16ST]

Thanks for your posts Lilike16ST, I'm expecting my LMS tuner in UPS today. I appreciate the affirmation of the fact that you enjoy the car much more with than without. I'll probably never get close to a dyno, so it'll have to be the ol' buttdyno doing its job.

No problem man glad to share my experiences. Car has a lot more power in the mid range and even up to 6500 it pulls much better then stock. Stock it felt like it fell off a cliff past 5-5500. I would highly recomment an upgraded FMIC with this tune. I'm running the oem for now but I don't dog the car all the time. I'll do a 1-3 or 1-4 gear pull every now and then and slam on it merging onto the highway now and then...for the most part I drive fairly civil. If I do run anyone I usually try to do it at night when its cooler out. I do plan to upgrade mine to the DHM one with crash bar...the huge one. That will do me good now and later down the road after I go with the x37 I plan to go with. But yes I enjoy the car MUCH better with than without for sure and I know you will too. I've never heard of anyone having an issue caused by a Livernois tune and I been in the mustang scene 15 years and saw many running their tunes same with other ecoboost cars. And this spike they speak of on the dyno...I have never felt anything like that on the street that I could tell. The only thing I can tell is from 2500-6500 the car straight hauls ass compared to stock.

 

[stuntdoogie]

Im getting mine upgraded to DH FMIC S2+ 93oct and dyno tuned this weekend with Russ. Will be using Randy's Mountune S1 93 as base. I will post back results.

 

[fST]

Many thanks for asking Adam since Livernois hasn't been around to address the question.

My impression is not only are they busy, they just don't care as much about the Fiesta ST as the other more popular, money making, vehicles.

Sent from my Nexus 4 using Tapatalk

 

[Chrisklol]

[MENTION=831]Livernois Motorsports[/MENTION]

 

[OffTheWall503]

I've tried tagging them to no avail. I've been chatting with them via email with almost immediate responses.