Livernois Motorsports Tune +18hp / +65tq

[fST]

[MENTION=831]Livernois Motorsports[/MENTION]

I came across some VERY interesting posts from a couple of years ago from [MENTION=1183]JT@LivernoisMotorsports[/MENTION] and I'm very interested in getting some more information as nothing about it has been mentioned in this thread; only that other boltons aren't really worth it and that LMS Stage 2 would be a turbo upgrade along with DP and IC upgrades, which seems to contradict the posts I found from a couple of years ago. Here are the posts I found:

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...st-Fiesta-ST-mod?p=31371&viewfull=1#post31371

WE ACTUALLY HAVE A FEW ITEMS THAT ARE SO NEW THAT WE HAVE NOT EVEN PUT THEM UP ON THE SITE YET...WE ALSO DO DYNO TUNING SERVICES THAT WE OFFER IF YOU'D LIKE TO TAKE A ROADTRIP.... HONESTLY, THE BEST COMBO FOR FAST, POTENT AND INEXPENSIVE POWER WOULD BE OUR TUNER, OUR OWN LIVERNOIS COLD AIR AND DYNO TUNE PKG!

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...yone-using-on-the-Fiesta-ST?p=33657#post33657

BEFORE YOU JUMP ON THE BANDWAGON, WE HAVE A 91&93 OCTANE TUNE FOR THE FiST AND THE FoST! WITH A BONE STOCK FiST WE GAIN 40 WHEEL HP, NOT FLYWHEEL HP AND OVER 70 WHEEL FTLB OF TORQUE!!! MAKING POWER AT THE FLYWHEEL IS COOL, BUT IT'S ALL ABOUT WHAT YOU CAN PUT ON THE GROUND!

http://youtu.be/ttlUR-9gPZQ HERE IS A VIDEO OF A STOCK FiST RUNNING OUR 91 OCTANE TUNE!

WE RECCOMMEND A COUPLE OF BASIC BOLT-ONS FOR THE BEST GAIN FROM TUNING LIKE THE INJEN CAI AND BORLA OR MRT EXHAUST, WE HAVE GAINS IS OVER 70 WHP AND 100W FTLB!!

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/2179-New-FiST-owner-from-Florida?p=31057#post31057

THE BEST PART IS THAT IT DOESN'T BREAK THE BANK! IF YOU ADD OUR COLD AIR, DOWNPIPE AND THERMOSTAT YOU'LL BE WE ABOVE THOSE MARKS...WELL ABOVE THOSE GUYS THAT PREY ON HATCHES WILL BE BEGGING FOR MERCY

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/2179-New-FiST-owner-from-Florida?p=31037#post31037

WELCOME ! I'M JAIMIE FROM LIVERNOIS MOTORSPORTS IN DEARBORN HEIGHTS, MI. OBVIOUSLY, THE WHOLE REASON FOR BUYING A HOT HATCH, IS FOR IT TO BE A HOT HATCH WE HAVE A KILLER TUNE FOR THE ST! http://www.livernoismotorsports.com/...OST-TUNER.html WE ALSO HAVE A NEW INTAKE AND DOWNPIPE PACKAGE IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE THE TOP DOG IN YOUR CLUB! GIVE ME A SHOUT IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS 313-561-5500 EXT 102

Those posts above would seem to suggest that an IC upgrade as well as a DP upgrade and CAI (and thermostat was mentioned as well) with an update on the tune from LMS would actually net pretty nice gains (over 70whp and 100 ft/lb of tq). In this thread, I believe LMS mentioned that they found there wasn't that much of an increase in just doing the IC and DP and that stage 2 for them would be an upgraded turbo along with IC and DP. The information seems to be a little different and am interested in finding out if there was more research done that came to the conclusion that it might not be worth it without a turbo upgrade? I understand that gains that are worth a certain amount of money are different to different people so maybe that's the difference here but over 70whp and 100 ft/lb of tq versus 41hp and 81tq from just their tune on an otherwise stock car IS very worth it to me! lol

Also, is this Livernois CAI and DP still available for purchase even though it's not on your website?

 

[OffTheWall503]

Anxiously waiting for their response to this. I'm curious because after I installed my exhaust and intercooler they told me no revision was required because the tune would adapt. Maybe that's something that has only recently been a thing. I won't answer on their behalf.

I'm sure [MENTION=831]Livernois Motorsports[/MENTION] won't respond until Tuesday.

 

[fST]

Anxiously waiting for their response to this. I'm curious because after I installed my exhaust and intercooler they told me no revision was required because the tune would adapt. Maybe that's something that has only recently been a thing. I won't answer on their behalf.

I'm sure [MENTION=831]Livernois Motorsports[/MENTION] won't respond until Tuesday.

I'm anxious for their response too. That's interesting that they told you no revision was required because the tune will adapt because I'm pretty sure it was mentioned earlier in this thread that they support unlimited tuning which would include revisions for mods such as intakes, DPs, ICs, etc. Unless something has changed, like you mentioned. Or I misunderstood what they said.

 

[OffTheWall503]

They stated that FMIC and exhaust didn't require revisions, but maybe there are some mods (downpipe, etc) that would benefit from revisions. Anxious to hear their opinion on it.

 

[fST]

So, in essence and truth, their tune is no different than any other OTS tune. Just a different tuner and a different device to flash the ECU and deliver said tune. So people are categorically better off with a custom e-tune, or better yet - a dyno/road tuning session with a trusted tuner of their choice.

Thats what I believe also.

Well, according to Livernois, they said from their experience, dyno tuning only changes the numbers by 2 or 3% compared to their OTS tunes. Is that difference less than say Adam's base tune versus his revisions? My understanding based on what Livernois has stated in this very thread, their OTS tunes ARE different. They're different because their tune can adapt to the many different conditions like weather. And apparently they figured out how to make this happen and created their proprietary device to take advantage of that. That implies to me that the Cobb AP can't do that. So with Cobb's OTS tunes, they're very conservative to be safe because of all the different driving conditions that people experience in different parts of the country. But it's my understanding, which could be wrong, that Livernois' tunes adapt to the different conditions, and apparently even adapt automatically to some of the boltons like intake, IC, etc. I guess that would also be why dyno tuning numbers would only be 2-3% different than their OTS tunes.

Does anyone else here have the same understanding from what they said earlier in this thread?

I'm highly considering taking the drive out to Livernois and fork out the money for them to dyno tune my car to see what difference it would make, anyway, though.

 

[OffTheWall503]

From what they've told me in email exchanges about my tune, this seems to be the case.

The only true way to see if it learns/adapts is to see how it does on the dyno on my second attempt since I've added mods like my catback exhaust and FMIC.

 

[stormcrow]

Well, according to Livernois, they said from their experience, dyno tuning only changes the numbers by 2 or 3% compared to their OTS tunes. Is that difference less than say Adam's base tune versus his revisions? My understanding based on what Livernois has stated in this very thread, their OTS tunes ARE different. They're different because their tune can adapt to the many different conditions like weather. And apparently they figured out how to make this happen and created their proprietary device to take advantage of that. That implies to me that the Cobb AP can't do that. So with Cobb's OTS tunes, they're very conservative to be safe because of all the different driving conditions that people experience in different parts of the country. But it's my understanding, which could be wrong, that Livernois' tunes adapt to the different conditions, and apparently even adapt automatically to some of the boltons like intake, IC, etc. I guess that would also be why dyno tuning numbers would only be 2-3% different than their OTS tunes.

Does anyone else here have the same understanding from what they said earlier in this thread?

I'm highly considering taking the drive out to Livernois and fork out the money for them to dyno tune my car to see what difference it would make, anyway, though.

Dyno tunes are not about changing the numbers. That's the problem most get into when modifying/tuning their car. They chase numbers. A dyno/street tune is about safety. It's about making sure that you're car isn't knocking at specific RPMs. It's about making sure that there's no boost leaks or vacuum leaks or other issues that would affect the tune. It's about dialing in all of the parameters of the tune to fit your car as, again, not one size fits all. It's about so, so, so much more. If you're not mistaken, and Livernois is claiming that their tune "adapts", then you are being sold a bill of goods.

Tunes don't adapt; ECUs adapt to the parameters of the tune they are running. With a mild tune, the ECU can still adapt to changes in humidity, temps, pressures, etc. as it's within the parameters of the ECU's logic (knowledge). If you go outside of those parameters, you're left leaving the ECU to adapt as best it can, but not in a proper way. Sometimes even in a detrimental way. This is why piggy-backs were so cumbersome. They tried to control the parameters when the ECU was outside of its scope of ability. Most times, they ended up fighting one another and causing issues. Stand-alone devices (such as AEM EMS, HKS FCON, and MOTEC) are so much better for high-horsepower applications. They don't 'fight' the ECU or try and override it. They simply bypass the ECU and it's limited abilities.

I hate when tuners and tuning shops play on the limited knowledge of a group of people and sell them snake-oil. It's sad that Livernois would talk about a dyno tune in the aspect of more gains instead of the aspect of safety. As to their claim that their hand-held is better than the Cobb AP, well a single glance would tell you otherwise. There is categorically no ECU flashing device on the market that is more capable than the Cobb AccessPort. There's no magic when it comes to tuning. There's only knowledge, experience, and skill. Be wary of shops and tuners who make magical claims about their software and hardware.

 

[fST]

Dyno tunes are not about changing the numbers. That's the problem most get into when modifying/tuning their car. They chase numbers. A dyno/street tune is about safety. It's about making sure that you're car isn't knocking at specific RPMs. It's about making sure that there's no boost leaks or vacuum leaks or other issues that would affect the tune. It's about dialing in all of the parameters of the tune to fit your car as, again, not one size fits all. It's about so, so, so much more. If you're not mistaken, and Livernois is claiming that their tune "adapts", then you are being sold a bill of goods.

Tunes don't adapt; ECUs adapt to the parameters of the tune they are running. With a mild tune, the ECU can still adapt to changes in humidity, temps, pressures, etc. as it's within the parameters of the ECU's logic (knowledge). If you go outside of those parameters, you're left leaving the ECU to adapt as best it can, but not in a proper way. Sometimes even in a detrimental way. This is why piggy-backs were so cumbersome. They tried to control the parameters when the ECU was outside of its scope of ability. Most times, they ended up fighting one another and causing issues. Stand-alone devices (such as AEM EMS, HKS FCON, and MOTEC) are so much better for high-horsepower applications. They don't 'fight' the ECU or try and override it. They simply bypass the ECU and it's limited abilities.

I hate when tuners and tuning shops play on the limited knowledge of a group of people and sell them snake-oil. It's sad that Livernois would talk about a dyno tune in the aspect of more gains instead of the aspect of safety. As to their claim that their hand-held is better than the Cobb AP, well a single glance would tell you otherwise. There is categorically no ECU flashing device on the market that is more capable than the Cobb AccessPort. There's no magic when it comes to tuning. There's only knowledge, experience, and skill. Be wary of shops and tuners who make magical claims about their software and hardware.

Well, in fairness to them, I specifically asked about gains in regards to dyno tuning, so their response was addressing that specifically.

And I could be misinterpreting what they were saying. Most of the information I'm referring to starts at around page 15-17 I believe if you'd like to read it...the conversations with [MENTION=688]Sourskittle[/MENTION] is what I'm referring to. He asked about being able to make small changes to the tune when conditions change such as the heat and humidity and Livernois was saying something about that not being needed if the tune is optimized and figured out or something like that.

 

[stormcrow]

Well, in fairness to them, I specifically asked about gains in regards to dyno tuning, so their response was addressing that specifically.

And I could be misinterpreting what they were saying. Most of the information I'm referring to starts at around page 15-17 I believe if you'd like to read it...the conversations with [MENTION=688]Sourskittle[/MENTION] is what I'm referring to. He asked about being able to make small changes to the tune when conditions change such as the heat and humidity and Livernois was saying something about that not being needed if the tune is optimized and figured out or something like that.

Then, yes, if Livernois was simply answering your question of numbers on a dyno tune vs OTS, then I retract my statement about it being sad that they spoke directly to gains. However, that said, I personally would not want to run a canned tune which is so aggressive that only 2-3% gains would be seen when tuning for the actual car. That's very risky. I live in Atlanta. It's 90+ degrees here with the relative humidity being in the 80 and 90 percent ranges daily. A tune that aggressive calibrated in Illinois at a (believe it or not) lower altitude (MSL), lesser heat and humidity, and created who knows when (could have been months ago when it was cold?) on my car could cause loads of pre-ignition. And this is but one reason why an OTS tune is, at best, a simple starting point for calibration.

And please understand that I'm not knocking Livernois. I've not run their tune, so in all fairness, without doing so and pulling logs, I can only speculate based on experience and what limited tuning knowledge I possess. I'm simply saying that OTS tunes, no matter who calibrates them, are never going to be close to an actual dyno/street tune as far as power or safety goes. If they are close in power, then your safety factor has been diminished exponentially.

 

[fST]

However, that said, I personally would not want to run a canned tune which is so aggressive that only 2-3% gains would be seen when tuning for the actual car. That's very risky. I live in Atlanta. It's 90+ degrees here with the relative humidity being in the 80 and 90 percent ranges daily. A tune that aggressive calibrated in Illinois at a (believe it or not) lower altitude (MSL), lesser heat and humidity, and created who knows when (could have been months ago when it was cold?) on my car could cause loads of pre-ignition.

That is something I found very interesting when I read it and I would love to hear [MENTION=831]Livernois Motorsports[/MENTION] respond to that, although the response might be essentially the same as it was when directed toward Sourskittle back on page 17.

And please understand that I'm not knocking Livernois. I've not run their tune, so in all fairness, without doing so and pulling logs, I can only speculate based on experience and what limited tuning knowledge I possess. I'm simply saying that OTS tunes, no matter who calibrates them, are never going to be close to an actual dyno/street tune as far as power or safety goes. If they are close in power, then your safety factor has been diminished exponentially.

I totally understand you're not knocking them. I'm personally glad you're bringing up these points for discussion!

 

[stormcrow]

That is something I found very interesting when I read it and I would love to hear [MENTION=831]Livernois Motorsports[/MENTION] respond to that, although the response might be essentially the same as it was when directed toward Sourskittle back on page 17.

I totally understand you're not knocking them. I'm personally glad you're bringing up these points for discussion!

Thank you for suggesting that I look back in this thread. Some of the things I've read...well, let's just say that I'm now convinced that I would stay away from this tune. I'm not trying to start a flame war and I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions and choices. But, judging from the dyno graph, which was so proudly posted and I'm assuming one of their better graphs, looks like a heart monitor on smoothing factor 5 (highest smoothing available) and is in standard correction. For those who don't know what STD correction is, it basically corrects the numbers for optimal conditions. 60 degree temperature (fahrenheit), 0 percent humidity, and perfect barometric pressure. (29.92Hg) So, Livernois is posting their results in perfect conditions, not SAE corrections. This is a trick used by many tuners to inflate numbers (even though they will deny this tactic).

But, what gets me is the graph. There are major variances across the whole RPM range that should be smoothed out with such a high smoothing factor. This is indicative of a ragged tune, issue with the rollers, or wheel-slip. I can't imagine there would be wheel-slip with a Fiesta as there is simply no where near enough torque, I'm hopeful a shop the size of Livernois doesn't have issues with their dynomometer, so I'm left with one alternative. Please, everyone, do yourself a favor and look for Dynojet graphs on the internet. A solid tune should *not* look like this:

 

[fST]

Thank you for suggesting that I look back in this thread. Some of the things I've read...well, let's just say that I'm now convinced that I would stay away from this tune. I'm not trying to start a flame war and I firmly believe that everyone is entitled to their opinions and choices. But, judging from the dyno graph, which was so proudly posted and I'm assuming one of their better graphs, looks like a heart monitor on smoothing factor 5 (highest smoothing available) and is in standard correction. For those who don't know what STD correction is, it basically corrects the numbers for optimal conditions. 60 degree temperature (fahrenheit), 0 percent humidity, and perfect barometric pressure. (29.92Hg) So, Livernois is posting their results in perfect conditions, not SAE corrections. This is a trick used by many tuners to inflate numbers (even though they will deny this tactic).

But, what gets me is the graph. There are major variances across the whole RPM range that should be smoothed out with such a high smoothing factor. This is indicative of a ragged tune, issue with the rollers, or wheel-slip. I can't imagine there would be wheel-slip with a Fiesta as there is simply no where near enough torque, I'm hopeful a shop the size of Livernois doesn't have issues with their dynomometer, so I'm left with one alternative. Please, everyone, do yourself a favor and look for Dynojet graphs on the internet. A solid tune should *not* look like this:

Wow, appreciate your attention to detail in looking at the graph! I never noticed that myself!

That might explain why all the other dynos I've seen (there have only been maybe 2 others?) have all shown gains quite a bit lower than this (at least, to me).

In 2 years and 50 pages, you're the first to notice this, or at least mention it.

 

[OffTheWall503]

My dyno curves look significantly smoother than that, so what does that tell you?

 

[fST]

My dyno curves look significantly smoother than that, so what does that tell you?

Well, one thing that is a little different is the scale of your graph. I noticed that before but it wasn't quite a big deal enough to mention it. It would be nice to zoom in on the graph a bit though, instead of the graph going from -200 - 500 (and also up to 9k RPMs). If the scale was closer, we would probably see more of the variations (at least I think?).

 

[stormcrow]

My dyno curves look significantly smoother than that, so what does that tell you?

I can't tell what correction or smoothing factor was used during those pulls. Nor even really what type of dyno that was done on. But, I can tell you that you've some issues at the 3k range with torque and HP dipping as they are. Just as in the Livernois dyno graph above. Are you running the Livernois tune? It would seem as if you are given the two graphs nearly match.

Edit - I see it's a Dynocom dynomometer. I'm not familiar with this device. So I can't tell you what correction or smoothing factor were employed. That should be on the graph. You could ask whatever shop did the dyno pulls for you.

 

[OffTheWall503]

I will be at the same shop again today for a second round of dyno pulls. Will post results in a few hours.

 

[stormcrow]

Here are two graphs (before and after) of a 2010 Nissan 370Z Nismo that I had twin-turboed. They are done with STD correction and a high smoothing factor. This is more indicative of the curves we should be seeing out of a solid tune on the Fiesta.

Stock tune

Modified/turbo tune

 

[fST]

I will be at the same shop again today for a second round of dyno pulls. Will post results in a few hours.

Nice!! Find out if you can have them scale the graph down a bit...make the graph fill the entire area. The graph only needs to go from 0-300 vertically, and up to 7k RPMs horizontally.

 

[OffTheWall503]

I will make sure the graph is closer in, thank you!

 

[OffTheWall503]

Here are two graphs (before and after) of a 2010 Nissan 370Z Nismo that I had twin-turboed. They are done with STD correction and a high smoothing factor. This is more indicative of the curves we should be seeing out of a solid tune on the Fiesta.

Stock tune

Modified/turbo tune

So in light of what you were saying, can you state what's wrong with my graph?

My lines from today are almost identical in linear motion to that of my stock pulls. So if you could explain more of what I'm supposed to be looking for it would be most appreciated.