Transmission Blow'd Up on Track

[Fusion Works]

How about pulling the current trans and lets see what went.

 

[Fusion Works]

BTW, pull a fluid sample before you drain it and send it to Blackstone. Lets see if its cooked or not.

 

[ronmcdon]

I think the price Clarke quotes seems reasonable to me. was under the impression shot peening (or WPC as Clarke calls it) seems like a reasonable way to strengthen the gears in a transmission. maybe one can find a more local shop to avoid the shipping expenses back and forth. I'm not sure if there is another solution to build our transmissions. maybe cryo treating the gears. a shame there's not a more affordable straight cut gearset for our cars.

I'm about to build up a transmission for my fc civic si with know weak 3rd and 4th gears. I'm lucky I can get a beefier 3rd and 4th gearset and will also go with shot peening all the gears. 3.2k would really not be a bad amount to get the tranny rebuilt with full shot peening.

but yeah in some ways it is a gamble. maybe find a shop you trust with a reputation for track cars and go with their recommendation. if the transmission can be rebuilt, you might as well explore some shot peening, cryo treatment and maybe the carbon syncromesh options.

 

[cidsamuth]

Okay, after analyzing my options to death, here is what I come up with. To be clear, I will pull and install the trans, but I don't have the expertise to crack it open for repair. I also want that 4.3 final drive while it's open.

Option #1: Buy a used 60k mile transmission for $1200ish (including shipping), pay for the LSD swap and install of the 4.3 final drive. All said and done, I'd have about $2500 into it. This unit might last forever or might not, as condition will be somewhat "unknown."

Option #2: Clarke. Their unit would be $3200 + shipping + $2400 core + return of core +optional $1k WDC treatment. I assume the 4.3 install would cost extra labor, even during regular assembly (plus parts). In theory, I could sell my Wavetrac LSD ($600ish). While this might be the "best" option, there are questions about how much better for a track exclusive car. The polishing and deburring undoubtedly reduces heat and friction, but the longevity benefits are not measurable. The WDC treatment appears to be the same, promising less friction and heat, and with some vague references to increasing strength. The inclusion of the carbon fiber syncros is nice, but also not necessarily something that has measurable longevity improvements on track. Lastly, it appears they repurpose used internals, albeit after careful inspection and the polishing; I get it's debatable on whether that matters. But, almost certainly the enormous $2400 core charge would indicate they need 100% working internals to be reused . . . and I almost certainly won't get all of that back since my transmission went boom. All in all, I'm sure going this way would result in the "best" transmission, but I'd probably be into it for at least $5500 plus whatever part of my core they don't return. How much better is where I'm sure opinions abound.

Option #3: I can get a brand new transmission from Ford for $2400 and no shipping (local dealer). The core is only $600, and almost certainly NOT dependent on my trans being in working order, so I would expect it back. The 4.3 parts will be $600 (I have an OEM turbo credit coming from Whoosh), and my local speed shop will do the LSD swap and 4.3 upgrade for $600. All in all, I'd be into this option for about $3600. Would be a new transmission with new internals, albeit not polished and/or treated.

Option #4: Let someone crack open mine and only fix what's broken. Obviously, total cost to do this depends on the extent of the broken parts, and there may or may not be a backorder on whatever broke. What's not broken is reused. Note, my car has 113k miles on it. My guess is that I'd be into this option for $2500-$3000 by the time I buy parts, pay for labor, get the 4.3, etc. And, most of the parts would be 10 years old and have 113k miles on them.

I think Option #3 is the winner. @kevinatfms

 

[Fusion Works]

I like option 3 as well. The OE transmission has a carbon lined syncro. Yes REM finishing will help cut temperature and potential stress cracks, but its not going to add more than a few percent on strength. Cryo the same way. Transmissions gain strength by physically changing the size of the internal components.

Would like to see what failed inside you trans though.

 

[cidsamuth]

Would like to see what failed inside you trans though.

I meant to respond to this. Yea, I'll definitely ask for pictures when it it cracked open for the LSD swap. But, I honestly don't see me getting the fluid analyzed absent additional info making it the right move.

FYI, when the Wavetrac LSD was installed a couple years ago, I started using Motul 300, as this was what Ron listed as recommended by Wavetrac. Later, the 300 series got harder to find, and Ron reached out to the Wavetrac rep, who said Redline 75W-90NS was fine. So, I've been running that since. Note, Ron's site now says Motul DTCF . . . not sure if that was done when availability became an issue, or because of complaints on tough shifting when cold . . . or for another reason.

 

[Fusion Works]

I wonder how heat is affecting our transmissions on track. Hence my question to oil testing. I am wondering if we need to start looking at oil cooling for our transmission when on track.

 

[cidsamuth]

I wonder how heat is affecting our transmissions on track. Hence my question to oil testing. I am wondering if we need to start looking at oil cooling for our transmission when on track.

It's a fair question. Wouldn't have been the direct cause for me this time, as I was less than 2 laps in on a 50F degree day. But, to your point, high heat over the last few years of track time could have taken a toll.

 

[Fusion Works]

How often do you change the transfluid based on event usage?

 

[cidsamuth]

How often do you change the transfluid based on event usage?

I'm less militant about it than engine oil . . . by design, I would choose to do it a couple times per season (which would amount to every 8ish track days). But, it never got that far, as there was always an unrelated reason that I had to drop the fluid, or it made sense to change it while there, e.g. leaking axle seal, engine change, etc.

 

[ronmcdon]

2400 is not a bad price at all. If clarke is also having a 2400 core charge, hopefully they are using new oem transmissions

 

[cidsamuth]

2400 is not a bad price at all. If clarke is also having a 2400 core charge, hopefully they are using new oem transmissions

They'd only charge $600 for the core, if they were using new transmissions for their builds . . . as that's all Ford charges for the core. The fact they charge $2400 for your core tells me they need your transmission to be repurposed. That theory is strengthened by the fact they note the $2400 won't be returned until they inspect your trans. I might be wrong.

 

[thecman02]

Everything you guys said seem reasonable. I also only want to elaborate on probably the most important thing Clarke and any other worthwhile performance transmission shop does IMO. That is Gear Detailing/Inspection! It won't make your gearsets stronger per say, but you'll raise the odds of getting the most life out of them. Their are lots of little defects, burrs, and stress risers to be found on a gear set. These defects can be eliminated with WPC/shot peening, or by rejecting the part for another. I'm not usually one to come off as argumentative, but wpc and especially inspection by a pro can be the difference between happiness and sadness. We know these transmissions are fairly robust and infant failures are fairly rare though. There is something to be said about knowing the history/life of the transmission. Their won't be any shock events that you won't know about. That's going to be the biggest issue most of the time. Getting a new transmission makes sense.

No matter what I don't think option 4 makes any sense on its own. Maybe do option 4 in addition to the other options so you have a spare transmission down the road. Option 2 in my opinion is definitely the safest sure thing. Seems like like 50%+ costs are not worth the peace of mind in this circumstance.

 

[Ford SVT & ST]

I'm new here and to Turbo 3 and 4 cyl. motors. Ask Mr. Clarke what internal guts makes their transmission so much superior to the FORD OEM with a LSD. Is it the Metallurgy they use in the gears? is it the clutch material? the # of splines on the output shaft? Helical cut gears? Magnesium for lighter weight and stronger gears? COOLING?

Since you are running a track car HARD EVERY DAY that you are on the track, I don't think u are what FORD Engineers had in mind with the BEAN COUNTERS controlling cost on an Entry Level Street/Sport Tuned car.

Please let us know what Colby Clarke has to say. We are all living vicariously through ur track adventures.

 

[Sam4]

Okay, after analyzing my options to death, here is what I come up with. To be clear, I will pull and install the trans, but I don't have the expertise to crack it open for repair. I also want that 4.3 final drive while it's open.

Option #1: Buy a used 60k mile transmission for $1200ish (including shipping), pay for the LSD swap and install of the 4.3 final drive. All said and done, I'd have about $2500 into it. This unit might last forever or might not, as condition will be somewhat "unknown."

Option #2: Clarke. Their unit would be $3200 + shipping + $2400 core + return of core +optional $1k WDC treatment. I assume the 4.3 install would cost extra labor, even during regular assembly (plus parts). In theory, I could sell my Wavetrac LSD ($600ish). While this might be the "best" option, there are questions about how much better for a track exclusive car. The polishing and deburring undoubtedly reduces heat and friction, but the longevity benefits are not measurable. The WDC treatment appears to be the same, promising less friction and heat, and with some vague references to increasing strength. The inclusion of the carbon fiber syncros is nice, but also not necessarily something that has measurable longevity improvements on track. Lastly, it appears they repurpose used internals, albeit after careful inspection and the polishing; I get it's debatable on whether that matters. But, almost certainly the enormous $2400 core charge would indicate they need 100% working internals to be reused . . . and I almost certainly won't get all of that back since my transmission went boom. All in all, I'm sure going this way would result in the "best" transmission, but I'd probably be into it for at least $5500 plus whatever part of my core they don't return. How much better is where I'm sure opinions abound.

Option #3: I can get a brand new transmission from Ford for $2400 and no shipping (local dealer). The core is only $600, and almost certainly NOT dependent on my trans being in working order, so I would expect it back. The 4.3 parts will be $600 (I have an OEM turbo credit coming from Whoosh), and my local speed shop will do the LSD swap and 4.3 upgrade for $600. All in all, I'd be into this option for about $3600. Would be a new transmission with new internals, albeit not polished and/or treated.

Option #4: Let someone crack open mine and only fix what's broken. Obviously, total cost to do this depends on the extent of the broken parts, and there may or may not be a backorder on whatever broke. What's not broken is reused. Note, my car has 113k miles on it. My guess is that I'd be into this option for $2500-$3000 by the time I buy parts, pay for labor, get the 4.3, etc. And, most of the parts would be 10 years old and have 113k miles on them.

I think Option #3 is the winner. @kevinatfms

It's a core charge, and they certainly will inspect it. And you are right to worry about back orders - mine sat for 13 weeks (at Ford) waiting for bearings.

 

[cidsamuth]

It's a core charge, and they certainly will inspect it.

I think you might have missed the bigger point, as it relates to expected costs and materials used for their units. But, not worth arguing over -- I have ordered a new unit from Ford, which hopefully arrives within a week.

 

[ronmcdon]

No matter what I don't think option 4 makes any sense on its own. Maybe do option 4 in addition to the other options so you have a spare transmission down the road. Option 2 in my opinion is definitely the safest sure thing. Seems like like 50%+ costs are not worth the peace of mind in this circumstance.

I agree with option 4 and another option, given IF there's no convincing way to beef up the fiesta transmission in any way AND the car is tracked frequently, that would be just added insurance.
I guess transmissions just might be another thing along the list of 'consumables' with the fiesta. its something I've always been a bit paranoid about on here.

 

[Sam4]

I'm new here and to Turbo 3 and 4 cyl. motors. Ask Mr. Clarke what internal guts makes their transmission so much superior to the FORD OEM with a LSD. Is it the Metallurgy they use in the gears? is it the clutch material? the # of splines on the output shaft? Helical cut gears? Magnesium for lighter weight and stronger gears? COOLING?

Since you are running a track car HARD EVERY DAY that you are on the track, I don't think u are what FORD Engineers had in mind with the BEAN COUNTERS controlling cost on an Entry Level Street/Sport Tuned car.

Please let us know what Colby Clarke has to say. We are all living vicariously through ur track adventures.

Clarke doesn't supply the clutch, just the R&R'd tranny

I think you might have missed the bigger point, as it relates to expected costs and materials used for their units. But, not worth arguing over -- I have ordered a new unit from Ford, which hopefully arrives within a week.

I was in the same conundrum - I had the work done at Ford, because no independent shop would let me bring a Clarke, or Pumaspeed. I saw pricing benefits with the oem, but my input shat left the world before 60K, so once bitten, I clarked! Good luck!

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^Maybe Ford SVT & ST was referring to the strength/quality of the carbon lining on the blocker rings??

 

[CSM]

This sounds a lot like what happened to my FiST at 110k miles. X37 car on E30, making about 330 torque. Second gear sheared during a pull and grenaded. Basically ruined everything inside the transmission. Ended up getting a new unit from Ford for ~$1700 IIRC.

I would not go with a used transmission personally.

I've also long suspected the 2014 + 2015 transmissions may be weaked than the newer ones, but this is only a suspicion
https://www.fiestastforum.com/threa...uild-thread.26062/#lg=attachment50596&slide=0