What makes the fist respond so well to hybrid turbo

[Stkid93]

Title says it all,

What makes the fist gain so much power with a hybrid turbo?

the focus at gains about 20-30 wheel with a hybrid turbo

my srt4 had a hybrid turbo they called them a BWS (big wheel stocker) and that only gained maybe 30 wheel from it too. But for some reason the fists can gain as much as 100-150 wheel horsepower with a whoosh hybrid. I mean there’s only so much you can do with a hybrid turbo so why do we gain so much more than other platforms?

 

[akiraproject24]

Realistically you wont see 150 without fueling mods. Typically its 70 to 80 increase. Ford left quite a bit on the table from what I understand.

 

[Stkid93]

@akiraproject24

even if we go with 80 wheel horsepower that’s still nuts. That’s triple what most platforms see. I understand ford/manufacturers leaving room on the table in stock form. That’s why some platforms can gain tons of power with just a tune. My srt4 is a good example. On its stock turbo, it made 100 wheel horsepower and 150 wheel Torque over stock with a tune.

But leaving that much room on the table when talking about a hybrid turbo that’s where I get confused. A hybrid is just a ported stock turbo at the end of the day so that means ford intentionally used a turbo that is so small that it choked the living daylight out of the engine. And just some turbo porting completely changed the car. Why is the fist the only car to have this design? Why leave so much room on the table? I get not wanting to step on the focus sales, so they had to make it slower. But it just seems so crazy to me

 

[Alkoran]

Hybrids are not just ported turbos. They have different wheels hence different and enhanced air mass production capability. You could "port" your stock turbo all you want, it wouldn't flow any more than it is right now.

Also, Ford did not make this quicker for a good reason: There was also the FoST available. Wouldn't make any marketing sense to make the econo box faster than the "flagship" performance car.

 

[Stkid93]

Right but what makes the fiesta st hybrid turbo wheel so much more effective than others platforms? They all do the same thing, bore out the turbo and put a bigger wheel.

 

[Alkoran]

It's not because they all do the same thing that the characteristics are the same thus the end results. I can't tell because I have not the specs of everything but for the sake of an example, if FiST hybrid is given wheels that makes it flow 15% more vs an other hybrid from a different car that can only be enlarged by 5%, well the results will inevitably be better.

 

[Intuit]

Leaving more on the table addresses reliability, flexibility and safety concerns. Anytime you start adding power, you have to start building up everything around it. Many drivers can't drive well... and you have to consider that. Many people start with tires. Then intake. Then intercooler. More aggressive tune with alternative fueling. Then limited slip differential. More turbo. Oh sh*, it can't pass emissions. WTF do I do now? Let me back-track... F* it I'm selling...

 

[Dialcaliper]

The main reason is that the stock turbo is simply grossly undersized for the engine at higher RPM - it was designed to give a small engine enough low RPM grunt to move a much heavier Ford Escape/Fusion.

At higher rpm it can’t maintain boost because it’s choked *and* pushing out extremely hot air. Any larger turbo is operating closer to its efficiency range and putting out cooler, denser air, even at the same boost pressure

 

[Stkid93]

Yea I never understood that, I know putting an engine in multiple platforms saves money but ford had plenty of engines they could have put in the suvs.

If I remember correctly the escapes base engine was the 1.6 with an option to go to the 2.0 from the fost. Why wouldn’t they just make the 2.0 the base engine with an option for the 2.7 Ecoboost or the 3.3 NA v6?

I understood having the 2 liter as the base engine would have upped the price some. But last time I checked people who are buying an suv don’t want a 1.6 liter.. especially if they will be towing or using it to haul stuff for work.

honestly I judged the fist for a long time because of how small the engine is. And it’s a sub compact 2700 lb go cart,Not an suv. And I’m still not totally convinced that a 1.6 liter was the right choice for the us market. Sure. In the uk, they love their tiny engines cause of more expensive gas and taxes based on engine size. But in the us market a 1.6 liter gets laughed out of every car show and is considered somewhat of a joke especially for a performance car. Don’t get me wrong we have come a long way and a lot of company’s are going towards downsized 4 bangers and even 3 cylinders. But in a world with 6.4 liter supercharged hellcats and 7 liter ls7 corvettes and 8.4 liter v10 vipers. 1.6 starts to sound smaller and smaller. So I can’t imagine the 1.6 went over well/sold very well with the escape customer base.

just seems like a poor decision

 

[Dialcaliper]

Yea I never understood that, I know putting an engine in multiple platforms saves money but ford had plenty of engines they could have put in the suvs.

If I remember correctly the escapes base engine was the 1.6 with an option to go to the 2.0 from the fost. Why wouldn’t they just make the 2.0 the base engine with an option for the 2.7 Ecoboost or the 3.3 NA v6?

I understood having the 2 liter as the base engine would have upped the price some. But last time I checked people who are buying an suv don’t want a 1.6 liter.. especially if they will be towing or using it to haul stuff for work.

honestly I judged the fist for a long time because of how small the engine is. And it’s a sub compact 2700 lb go cart,Not an suv. And I’m still not totally convinced that a 1.6 liter was the right choice for the us market. Sure. In the uk, they love their tiny engines cause of more expensive gas and taxes based on engine size. But in the us market a 1.6 liter gets laughed out of every car show and is considered somewhat of a joke especially for a performance car. Don’t get me wrong we have come a long way and a lot of company’s are going towards downsized 4 bangers and even 3 cylinders. But in a world with 6.4 liter supercharged hellcats and 7 liter ls7 corvettes and 8.4 liter v10 vipers. 1.6 starts to sound smaller and smaller. So I can’t imagine the 1.6 went over well/sold very well with the escape customer base.

just seems like a poor decision

Automakers have been universally downsizing engines, replacing them with “equivalent” smaller turbocharged engines.

The kind of car that used to have a 2.0L or 2.4L N/A engine now uses a 1.5L-1.6L turbo with the same power. The turbo 2.0L-2.5L has replaced the V6, and larger engines drop cylinders.

Case in point the old SVT Focus with a tuned 170HP 2.0L is the equivalent of the FiST.

With tiny quick spooling turbos, I imagine there’s nothing wrong at all with the Escape. The 1.6T has more power and noticably more low end torque than the 2.5L cylinder it replaced.

Compare 171hp and 171ft-lb of the 2.5L Duratec previously in the escape. The 1.6L is an upgrade to 178hp with 184ft-lb of torque, and the little turbo hits peak torque at 2500 RPM with a broader torque curve instead of the N/A engine’s 4500RPM. I see nothing wrong with that, with better fuel economy to boot.

Small turbos are literally the “replacement for displacement” and do a better job at it. Don’t get hung up on “Liters” and cylinders.

The only downside to the engine is that for the ST, in order to keep the price down on a compact hot hatch, Ford decided to stick with the existing turbo on the engine instead of upgrading it to a larger unit.

 

[gtx3076]

The main reason is that the stock turbo is simply grossly undersized for the engine at higher RPM - it was designed to give a small engine enough low RPM grunt to move a much heavier Ford Escape/Fusion.

At higher rpm it can’t maintain boost because it’s choked *and* pushing out extremely hot air. Any larger turbo is operating closer to its efficiency range and putting out cooler, denser air, even at the same boost pressure

This is literally it. There's nothing remarkable about putting too restrictive an exhaust on a car. Upgrading the turbo is really more about removing a serious bottleneck on power.

 

[Alkoran]

Yea I never understood that, I know putting an engine in multiple platforms saves money but ford had plenty of engines they could have put in the suvs.

If I remember correctly the escapes base engine was the 1.6 with an option to go to the 2.0 from the fost. Why wouldn’t they just make the 2.0 the base engine with an option for the 2.7 Ecoboost or the 3.3 NA v6?

I understood having the 2 liter as the base engine would have upped the price some. But last time I checked people who are buying an suv don’t want a 1.6 liter.. especially if they will be towing or using it to haul stuff for work.

honestly I judged the fist for a long time because of how small the engine is. And it’s a sub compact 2700 lb go cart,Not an suv. And I’m still not totally convinced that a 1.6 liter was the right choice for the us market. Sure. In the uk, they love their tiny engines cause of more expensive gas and taxes based on engine size. But in the us market a 1.6 liter gets laughed out of every car show and is considered somewhat of a joke especially for a performance car. Don’t get me wrong we have come a long way and a lot of company’s are going towards downsized 4 bangers and even 3 cylinders. But in a world with 6.4 liter supercharged hellcats and 7 liter ls7 corvettes and 8.4 liter v10 vipers. 1.6 starts to sound smaller and smaller. So I can’t imagine the 1.6 went over well/sold very well with the escape customer base.

just seems like a poor decision

One word: CAFE

There's so much politics and compromises behind the scenes when designing a car not to mention federal regulations that are not even the same around the globe. Don't worry there's a reason for every bolts put on a car. And you always have at least 3 bean counters and 2 marketing guys that veto every choices a single engineer makes.

 

[Clint Beastwood]

Yea I never understood that, I know putting an engine in multiple platforms saves money but ford had plenty of engines they could have put in the suvs.

If I remember correctly the escapes base engine was the 1.6 with an option to go to the 2.0 from the fost. Why wouldn’t they just make the 2.0 the base engine with an option for the 2.7 Ecoboost or the 3.3 NA v6?

I understood having the 2 liter as the base engine would have upped the price some. But last time I checked people who are buying an suv don’t want a 1.6 liter.. especially if they will be towing or using it to haul stuff for work.

honestly I judged the fist for a long time because of how small the engine is. And it’s a sub compact 2700 lb go cart,Not an suv. And I’m still not totally convinced that a 1.6 liter was the right choice for the us market. Sure. In the uk, they love their tiny engines cause of more expensive gas and taxes based on engine size. But in the us market a 1.6 liter gets laughed out of every car show and is considered somewhat of a joke especially for a performance car. Don’t get me wrong we have come a long way and a lot of company’s are going towards downsized 4 bangers and even 3 cylinders. But in a world with 6.4 liter supercharged hellcats and 7 liter ls7 corvettes and 8.4 liter v10 vipers. 1.6 starts to sound smaller and smaller. So I can’t imagine the 1.6 went over well/sold very well with the escape customer base.

just seems like a poor decision

ooh an escape with the 2.7 ecoboost might have been kinda fun lol

 

[SteveS]

The largest engine the Fiesta ever had was a 1.6, since its inception in 1977 with the exception of a 1.8 diesel it had and a 2.0 naturally aspirated that was offered in 2002-2008. In Europe it comes with much smaller engines as well.

The power race that has happened in recent years is really quite absurd. And bigger engines, even if they could have fit the platform, would have totally defeated the point of a Fiesta. As it came stock, it was right at 200 HP. It has barely controlled torque steer and traction problems with the power at that level. More power causes more problems for really minimal gain. 0-60 times are not the be-all end-all of car performance, if you can even get the power on the road.

Just look at the arm-long list of things people change to be able to contain even the modest power increase of a hybrid turbo. But Ford knew one of the biggest limitations of the platform was the size of the tire. So they built the car to use available off-the-shelf parts and the size of tire that fit the platform.

 

[Stkid93]

I wonder what the biggest tire someone put on a fist is. Obviously there are slicks, and super sticky barely road legal tires like the R888 but there’s so much compromise with tires like that. If someone found a way to put a 255 tire on a fist, you could get away with a tire that is way less aggressive and way better in wet conditions.

I believe I have seen posts where people went to 225 or maybe even 235 tires with minimal changes to the body. I wonder if that’s true/how the car drove. In a perfect world, 225/235 is probably the minimum size I would want on my fist. If we could slap a 245 or so on them. I think it would make a hugeeeee difference.

I do understand the fiesta has always been given small engines. And it’s way cheaper for ford to put the same engine all around the world. But the easiest and cheapest option isn’t always best and it’s not always what customers want. ford could have broken the status quo if they wanted to

Even if they made a special edition fist, went all out on it. Put 245/255 tires. A 2.0/2.3 ecoboost with 300 horseower, all wheel drive, called it the Shelby fiesta or fiesta Ken block edition or something lol. Charge 30-35 grand and bam. People would buy it.

don’t get me wrong, I know the all wheel drive system and bigger motor would add some weight, but with the small dimensions of the fist I think they could have kept it right around 2900-3000 lbs. that’s a good 500-600 lbs lighter than the focus RS, maybe 10 grand cheaper or so, a little less power and less practical due to its size, so it didn’t step on the RS sales, with all wheel drive and 300 horsepower.

 

[Capri to ST]

The largest engine the Fiesta ever had was a 1.6, since its inception in 1977 with the exception of a 1.8 diesel it had and a 2.0 naturally aspirated that was offered in 2002-2008. In Europe it comes with much smaller engines as well.

The power race that has happened in recent years is really quite absurd. And bigger engines, even if they could have fit the platform, would have totally defeated the point of a Fiesta. As it came stock, it was right at 200 HP. It has barely controlled torque steer and traction problems with the power at that level. More power causes more problems for really minimal gain. 0-60 times are not the be-all end-all of car performance, if you can even get the power on the road.

Just look at the arm-long list of things people change to be able to contain even the modest power increase of a hybrid turbo. But Ford knew one of the biggest limitations of the platform was the size of the tire. So they built the car to use available off-the-shelf parts and the size of tire that fit the platform.

I agree with this. A bigger engine is also typically heavier of course, and then everything else has to be a little heavier to handle that extra weight. That would tend to defeat the car's best asset, its quick and agile handling.

 

[SteveS]

All you have to do is compare the Fiesta to the Focus to see that. The Focus has more power, and around the racetrack is faster. But it feels nowhere near as nimble and that is evident on the autocross course. The ST Octane Academy at Ford Performance racing school was the best way to experience the difference.

The other side of changing bodywork to accommodate wider tires and putting in a bigger engine with the requisite bigger brakes and so on is that it would no longer have been a $21,000 car.

 

[Intuit]

Lots of spot-on comments. As long as money is an object, any vehicle will rarely be everything we want it to be.
For the limited scope of this subject, I think they did a decent job with striking some sort of balance.

One word: CAFE ..........

Beat me to it.

 

[M-Sport fan]

The main reason is that the stock turbo is simply grossly undersized for the engine at higher RPM - it was designed to give a small engine enough low RPM grunt to move a much heavier Ford Escape/Fusion.

^^^THIS!!

 

[M-Sport fan]

Leaving more on the table addresses reliability, flexibility and safety concerns. Anytime you start adding power, you have to start building up everything around it. Many drivers can't drive well... and you have to consider that. Many people start with tires. Then intake. Then intercooler. More aggressive tune with alternative fueling. Then limited slip differential. More turbo. Oh sh*, it can't pass emissions. WTF do I do now? Let me back-track... F* it I'm selling...

The main reason why mine is remaining stock for now, power wise.

Moar powah, in tandem with very sticky tires also add much stress to the whole driveline (clutch, gearbox, ring and pinion, half shafts/CV joints, etc.) as well, especially with no weight reduction (or even weight additions in the form of bracing, audio upgrades, etc.).

(But I would like/appreciate that limited slip, even on factory power, regardless. )