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car feels slower after whoosh v3 install

Stkid93

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#1
Hey guys,

installed whoosh v3 intercooler this weekend and I'm pretty sure my car feels slower. There are a couple things to note. The whoosh v3 has given me about a 1 psi pressure drop, and the mass airflow has dropped about a lb/min as well going from 22.5 to 21.3, Is that whats making the car feel slower? I talked to dizzy and he said a retune is not needed despite these changes to boost and mass airflow.

I did a v dyno comparison but its hard to get an accurate gauge because my most recent virtual dyno before the intercooler was done at 30 degrees. and now with the intercooler its about 65 degrees. Im thinking Its enough of a temp change to see a slight drop in power, but not enough where the v3 will start to make a big difference. i will say the charge air temps are much more steady, before they would rise from 40 degrees to 75 after a single 4th gear pull and now they remain about 3-5 degrees above ambient no matter what.

Before in 30 degree weather I read 225 wheel horsepower consistently in colder weather with 290-310 torque depending on where the datalog/vdyno starts logging. Now I'm reading 217 wheel and 280-295 torque. Both the v dynos were started late, I have never been able to get data logging down, no matter how early I start the data and how late I end the datalog it always seems to cut off a good portion of the log. so on the vdyno, my runs didn't start until about 3500 rpm and ended about 5800. Before when logging horsepower and torque on the accessport i would get 217 horsepower and 295 torque, by 3500-4000 torque would drop to about 280. Now after the v3 I'm getting 205 horsepower and 290 torque but the torque drops to 260 by 4000. I know everyone says its not accurate but its always been extremely accurate for me.

I will say i think areas under the curve are much better. Before after hitting peak torque and power, the torque and horsepower would drop off very quickly. Now its holding much better, and there was an area after peak numbers where I made 20-30 more horsepower and torque on the vdyno. Again the accessport says something different now. So I thought I would be able to feel this power gain, but it doesn't feel any different, in fact it sometimes feels slower like I said because the turbo now has to fill a much bigger intercooler causing torque to come on later and slower. While I'm sure the v3 will make more consistent power in heat, it does appear that in colder weather the power did drop a little.

Anyone have any comments about this?
 


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#2
There is a possibility that you have a leak somewhere. Check all of the hoses and the hose clamps. Did you upgrade all of the hoses associated with the intercooler? If not, it’s definitely a must.
 


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#4
There is a possibility that you have a leak somewhere. Check all of the hoses and the hose clamps. Did you upgrade all of the hoses associated with the intercooler? If not, it’s definitely a must.

I don't know that I would call replacing boost hoses a "must" unless the existing hoses were compromised in some way. Surface prep and clamping are paramount regardless of hose construction.
 


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Stkid93

Stkid93

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Thread Starter #5
they were installed by max morin of RST speed haus. I am very confident there are no boost leaks. The boost is still hitting 25 ish psi. pressure drop with a larger intercooler is expected. Im not too worried about having 1 psi less boost. maybe i was just expecting the intercooler to give me a bigger gain, and when it didn't i was disappointed. I saw dizzys dyno where he gained 20 horsepower and 20 torque after adding an intercooler and was expecting that. the car does not feel substantially slower, just in certain parts of the rpm band i think maybe its not as strong? I'm going to take some more datalogs today to throw into v dyno, and tonight I will update the thread and post the v dynos. that should help.
 


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#6
I don't know that I would call replacing boost hoses a "must" unless the existing hoses were compromised in some way. Surface prep and clamping are paramount regardless of hose construction.
Not swapping hoses can cause airflow restrictions. You’re right, I shouldn’t have said it’s a must but it’s highly recommended. Especially on the V3.
 


Jabbit

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#7
Look at psi and rpm on a datalog on datazap.me

There is no way just an intercooler would add 20hp. I suspect it doesn't add any if that's the only modification.
 


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Stkid93

Stkid93

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Thread Starter #8
@Wolfsbora @oldedub @dhminer @Jabbit

alright so hoses are probably something i should consider, i did find it very weird that most intercooler kits for the fists only came with the core. never seen that before. So I figured upgrading hoses didn't really do much for ya.

jabbit- I brought up boost vs rpm on virtual dyno, there's a button where you can plot "other data" in a dyno like fashion. you can click on as many "other data points" as you want and it plots it like a dyno graph. and when you move your mouse over a certain part of the graph it tells you the exact number for each data point. just like datazap. i will post some data logs and v dynos later for you guys.

when doing boost, I found that the stock intercooler would hit 26.5 peak boost, I am now hitting about 25.5 peak psi. when doing further up the rpm range I found that the stock intercooler would consistently hold about 1 psi more than the v3 would due to pressure drop. the v3 would also consistently make about 1 lb/min less on the airflow. the OAR, ignition corrections and ignition timing were all the same with both intercoolers.

the charge air temp would raise up to 45 degrees sometimes on a single 4th gear pull with the stock intercooler in cold weather. the v3 now holds charge air right at ambient or maybe a few degrees above.
 


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Ford ST

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#9
In all of the years I have been on a site, and the thousands of post I have read. The stock turbo in my opinion does not need upgraded hoses. The only hose I would recommend is the hot side charge pipe, because there is a baffle in it to help with noise. It could reduce air flow. @jeff Had one of the best builds on this site in my opinion he has a youtube channel that covers a lot. He no longer has the car he did a hose upgrade, and in his opinion it doesn't do a whole lot. He did get some power Increase but he did a few other things at the same time. He didn't even have his hot side charge pipe upgraded. He also has an upgraded turbo. https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/review-whoosh-intercooler-charge-pipe-kit.19343/

These cars in the American market are tuned off the MAP sensor. Not the MAF.
I have the mountune intercooler and I did notice a increase in performance even the wife noticed in the passenger seat, but I live in a hot climate.
 


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Stkid93

Stkid93

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Thread Starter #10
@Ford ST how much of a pressure drop did you see with the mountune unit? i had a cobb intercooler on my speed 3 and they claimed a .5 psi pressure drop max. but i was also tuned after getting the intercooler with that car. With my fist i was tuned and then added the intercooler, so i noticed the pressure drop a lot more because i had a before and after. I'm thinking by going with the whoosh v3, I probably went way bigger than I needed to with the stock turbo and that is contributing to the pressure drop.
 


Ford ST

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#11
@Ford ST how much of a pressure drop did you see with the mountune unit? i had a cobb intercooler on my speed 3 and they claimed a .5 psi pressure drop max. but i was also tuned after getting the intercooler with that car. With my fist i was tuned and then added the intercooler, so i noticed the pressure drop a lot more because i had a before and after. I'm thinking by going with the whoosh v3, I probably went way bigger than I needed to with the stock turbo and that is contributing to the pressure drop.
I don't have a tune, so I have no idea. Plan on doing one later this year.
 


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#12
It is weird that your airflow has gone down. I sort of expect maybe a slightly reduced peak boost pressure because you are fighting against the extra volume of the intercooler, but with the extra parallel paths for the charge to go through you should have more volume due to less restriction. I wish I could find my spreadsheet to give you solid numbers and calculations. Having 30*F warmer ambient temperatures is a fairly significant change in air density though. Off the top of my head that could be enough to justify the mass flow difference. The benefits of this intercooler will be blunted by the stock turbo, especially in cool weather. Once you are in proper summer time conditions, or doing more than ocassional pulls the intercooler will shine.
 


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#13
In all of the years I have been on a site, and the thousands of post I have read. The stock turbo in my opinion does not need upgraded hoses. The only hose I would recommend is the hot side charge pipe, because there is a baffle in it to help with noise. It could reduce air flow. @jeff Had one of the best builds on this site in my opinion he has a youtube channel that covers a lot. He no longer has the car he did a hose upgrade, and in his opinion it doesn't do a whole lot. He did get some power Increase but he did a few other things at the same time. He didn't even have his hot side charge pipe upgraded. He also has an upgraded turbo. https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/review-whoosh-intercooler-charge-pipe-kit.19343/

These cars in the American market are tuned off the MAP sensor. Not the MAF.
I have the mountune intercooler and I did notice a increase in performance even the wife noticed in the passenger seat, but I live in a hot climate.
Disagreement is what forums are for, right? 😁 Upgraded hoses were recommended to me by multiple professionals as a way to get more airflow especially if you’re aiming for a stage 2 tune on a stock turbo with a big intercooler. Besides, it doesn’t hurt anything, provides piece of mind that the hoses aren’t a bottleneck, and is a cheap upgrade. Future proof, as well.
 


gtx3076

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#14
I lost torque and response going from stock to the V3. I still believe the V3 is too big for the stock turbo. Tune+ acknowledged this and said some people lose power upsizing piping on the stock turbo.

I used to hit 300wtq pretty easily in the winter in the stock intercooler, now I rarely get over 280wtq.
 


slopoke

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#15
Gains from an intercooler is to just not lose power, by keeping the compresser discharge air temps low, so the peak power does not drop off. It does NOT add horsepower from what your car makes peak

Doing a very long pull or back to back pulls with more PSI will heat soak the stock intercooler and cause IAT to rise and make your engine lose power. An aftermarket intercooler is to not heat soak as quickly and keep your power consistent.
 


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dhminer

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#16
@Wolfsbora @oldedub @dhminer @Jabbit

alright so hoses are probably something i should consider, i did find it very weird that most intercooler kits for the fists only came with the core. never seen that before. So I figured upgrading hoses didn't really do much for ya.

jabbit- I brought up boost vs rpm on virtual dyno, there's a button where you can plot "other data" in a dyno like fashion. you can click on as many "other data points" as you want and it plots it like a dyno graph. and when you move your mouse over a certain part of the graph it tells you the exact number for each data point. just like datazap. i will post some data logs and v dynos later for you guys.

when doing boost, I found that the stock intercooler would hit 26.5 peak boost, I am now hitting about 25.5 peak psi. when doing further up the rpm range I found that the stock intercooler would consistently hold about 1 psi more than the v3 would due to pressure drop. the v3 would also consistently make about 1 lb/min less on the airflow. the OAR, ignition corrections and ignition timing were all the same with both intercoolers.

the charge air temp would raise up to 45 degrees sometimes on a single 4th gear pull with the stock intercooler in cold weather. the v3 now holds charge air right at ambient or maybe a few degrees above.
I ran E30 with an upgraded intercooler without upgrading any charge pipes and it was totally fine, FWIW.

On the power loss, it’s possible the core is too large and has a pressure drop. Would need to measure boost at the turbo and at the intake manifold to confirm.
 


rallytaff

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#17
Disagreement is what forums are for, right? 😁 Upgraded hoses were recommended to me by multiple professionals as a way to get more airflow especially if you’re aiming for a stage 2 tune on a stock turbo with a big intercooler. Besides, it doesn’t hurt anything, provides piece of mind that the hoses aren’t a bottleneck, and is a cheap upgrade. Future proof, as well.
I don't have upgraded hoses and kept the stock turbo with a larger intercooler. I have no problem with acceleration or torque and no other issues anywhere.
 


Dialcaliper

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#18
Just reiterating what other people have said. A small pressure drop might be normal, but a mass airflow reduction is not. The V3 core is large enough to introduce some slight noticable lag on the stock turbo as it tries to fill the volume and build boost.

Maybe measurement error, different weather conditions (colder outside temp), or a very mild boost leak. Even highly reputable mechanics aren’t infallibile and make small mistakes sometimes, which doesn’t mean they aren’t highly trained professionals or that they deserve a bad rap. Where good shops shine is how they respond when you bring it back to the shop because something doesn’t seem right.

Keep in mind also the ECU uses mapping of throttle based on desired torque. If the intake charge is cooler, you *might* see a reduction in mass flow, but that seems like a lot. A little lag from the big core, but you should not be losing power.
 


gtx3076

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#19
I'm using power and torque interchangeably. My car actually makes good power, the most it ever has coupled with the upgraded IWG. But I definitely lost some torque. It's really not a big deal, but as I've said in another thread, I would be willing to trade my V3 for a V1 if it didn't cost me anything.
 


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Stkid93

Stkid93

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Thread Starter #20
@Dialcaliper

remember that the 22.5 lb/min airflow was in 30 degree weather while the 21.5 was in 65-70 degree weather. This could cause the drop in mass airflow no ?
 


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