2 liter isntead of 1.6

[Jabbit]

I don't know if it is just a visual 'optical illusion' or not, but every Mazda 2 I ever see looks/'appears to be' quite a bit smaller/more compact than our rides.

Are they different dimensionally?

It's within 2" in all directions. Engine bay is essentially identical from what I can tell.

 

[Schwebel]

Mazdaspeed shoehorned a 2.3 from the MS3 in the Mazda 2 for a one off show car. Anything is possible with enough $$. Wife owned a 2 when they were brand new when she was in college, 5speed. They are great cars, the shifter is so smooth and the materials a step above the fiesta inside, but just a little smaller.

Going back to the original question though, in my job I get a new car every month as a perk. I can literally pick any car as a demo. This month I have a Porsche Macan, but have literally driven about every non exotic sports car imaginable in the past 4 years. I bought my FiST because after I drove one I fell in love and had to have it. It is so balanced and fun. The steering is amazing, it’s playful. I think the extra weight and size of the 2.0 would have ruined it. Realize the weight of the engine isn’t the only thing you need to consider when dropping in a bigger engine. Better cooling, stronger trans and axles, suspension, weight distribution….etc. I think the 1.6 made the most sense and made the car as successful as it is. All the new sports cars are so digital and lifeless. Yes they go fast in a straight line, but you dont get the same sense of speed and accomplishment of rowing it there. Why do think 911R prices are insane, it’s not much faster than a Carrera but N/A, 6 speed only, lightweight, and no stupid nany’s.

Had a MK8 GTI last month and talk about a disappointment., couldn’t wait to get back in my FiST. I think the FiST will go down as the last great analog affordable hatchback of a soon to be bygone era, and just like the Integra Type-r’s of the 90s, appreciate and eventually be icons.

 

[Dpro]

well that’s why I was talking about a de tuned 2 liter making maybe 220/250or even a little less. Plus not everyone wants such a small car. Even if the fist and focus had equal power a lot of people would still buy the focus just for the size of it. I don’t think it would have necessarily invaded on the focus’s market. I do understand the uk thing but they could have done different motors like they do now. The uk fiesta st gets a 1.5 3 banger. So they could have done the 2 liter for us (where we like bigger engines) and the 1.6 for uk( where they like smaller engines). Idk if it would ever be possible and yes the car probably would have been more money if they did it like that. But I think it would have been worth the extra money.
Really interesting discussion all around regardless

Fiesta has been a popular small car for a very long time outside the U.S. The ST models started in the mid 2000’s and sold well. Oh and ya I actually owned a MKI Fiesta which was built in 1979!
Like has been said it was and always has been marketed as a world car.

So ya it’s always had a 1.6 liter engine. There were 1.0 liter Fiestas here and in the UK that were 3 bangers as well before the MK8 you are mentioning. Previous to the MK8 was the MK7.5 ST180 amd ST200 which were basically the exact same car we got here . Ford just dropped the Fiesta all together for the U.S. after the MK8 versions started being made.

When you say not everyone wants a small car it sounds so U.S. centric . In Europe and the UK the majority of the people own and drive small cars. Big cars are a very U.S. centric thing. Oh and the FoST is not really that much larger like has been pointed out as well

In the end it does seem like in wanting your idea you still miss the fact that it would affect Focus sales much like the Nissan S13 180sx did in Japan to the NA Z32 300zx . It wiped the floor with the NA in sales and was one of Japans most popular home country sports cars. Ya they built and sold the 180sx in Zenki versions, Chouki Versions and Kouki versions for ten years.
It also why Nissan North America did not try to import the CA18DET Zenki version engine or the SRDET engine for the 240sx ( S13 240sx Fastback is a 180sx in Japan) because of the very reason they feared it would eat into NA 300zx sales. and guess what? They were right as it did in Japan.
So there are rules of thumb car manufacturers try to follow to avoid cannibilizing model sales.

 

[Dialcaliper]

It’s also worth pointing out that in addition to the history of small Ford hot hatches in the UK, the 1.6L Ecoboost engine exists because of WRC, which shifted from 2.0L turbo engines to 1.6L turbo engines since 2011, when the Fiesta WRC was spawned.

So the 1.6L block with all its strengths and shortcomings has direct WRC motorsports DNA. The 2.0L and even 2.3L Focus engines, while great engines, are ultimately purely street car engines, and little stuff gets redesigned and compromises are made for cost reasons.

The main advantage of larger displacement is torque, but modern turbo engines already have low end torque in gobs and given a light hot hatch that can already induce wheel spin in second gear, there’s really no gain to making things even heavier and taller under the hood.

The only real shortcoming in the 1.6L is not the block but that the factory turbo is too small. A number of similar 1.6T engines were fitted with the BW K03 that Ford attached to the 2.0L Focus ST engine (Mini Cooper S, Veloster, etc). It’s also worth noting the Fiesta RS WRC used a larger Garrett turbo (Motorsport homologated GTR2560R)

Unfortunately Ford chose the much smaller KP39 to give the road going engine enough low end torque to also use in the Fusion and Escape, and for the Fiesta ST, instead of upgrading to a reasonably sized hot hatch turbo they chose to wring its neck well past the efficiency range, which is why we have a hot running engine with boost taper and cooling issues.

So the engine is fine, but tiny turbo. Stupid SUVs

 

[Stkid93]

loving this thread guys, so many amazing opinions. Absolutely agree about the turbo being too small. I would have loved to see a k03 or even k04 turbo on the fists. Only problem with that becomes low end torque and spool time. Which brings us right back to the engine size. With a turbo, you need exhaust gases to spool. And a 1.6 liter can only make so much exhaust gases especially at lower rpm/engine speeds. Even the stock turbo has shocking amounts of turbo lag considering how small it is. This is because I believe the little 1.6 doesnt create enough gases to spool the turbo, so going bigger will give us plenty of top end power. But then we lose the low end torque that makes these cars so much fun. You may think “how much of a difference will .4 liters make” but you would be surprised. Like I mentioned earlier, a turbo 2.0/2.3 feels like a large v6/v8 motor. While my e30 tuned 1.6 feels like a stock 2.0/2.3 liter.

There’s only so much you can do with tiny displacement. The engine is already completely boost dependent as is. You throw a bigger turbo on it, and you won’t get any power until 4500 rpm. Then you are at 6500 rpm before you know it. The power band is so small and quick. The fist engine with the stock turbo is surprisingly peaky, I get peak torque at 3000 rpm and by 3500 rpm I’ve already lost 30-35 ft lbs. you have maybe 200 rpms where you make peak torque. I’ve seen small turbo engines hold peak torque from 1500 rpm to 5000 rpm.

Back to the stock turbo size, The turbo being too small is outlined by the fact that you only gain 5-10 horsepower or so going from 93 to e30. Once you put a 93 tune on the car, the turbo is basically already maxed out. E30 really only gains power from ignition timing and cooling from the ethanol. You can gain plenty of midrange torque, but The most horsepower you can gain is maybe 20-30 from stock to full bolt on e30. Which tells me the turbo is already overworked up top from factory.

 

[Dpro]

well if you want the K04 then you should get yourself a Turbo Technics S280 because it’s basically a K04 Hybrid as it’s based on the K04 frrame. You keep on trying to compare your stock Turbo it’s a freaking KP39 i.e. small. Plus you keep on comment on how the engine can’t feel like something with a bigger turbo when you have even experienced it. You also seem to be hung up on HP like a lot of other people . Like Carroll Shelby used to say Torque wins races HP sells cars. TQ is what makes your street car feel fast and our little 1.6 with a Turbo puts out a shit ton of TQ for its size and with a hybrid it’s freaking ridiculous on the bottom and with the S280 the car pulls like a freight train. Oh and ya the S280 has a pretty broad and flat TQ band as well.

P.S. if you think there is only so much you can do with small displacement you are not very experienced with Turbo cars Nissan CA18DETs have been tuned to 400-500HP in Japan.
People have been pulling 400HP and more out of our engines as well. Seriously I am not sure if you have ever experienced those kind of numbers in a 2750lb car. Its seriously fast to the point of you changing the way you drive to take into account people not realizing how fast you are.

 

[dhminer]

or....

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCPZhfcYf30

I was going to post this too lol. If I swap anything it’s this. Otherwise, the 1.6 is the best 4 cyl we’ve got from ford IMO. Only downside is that our 1.6 isn’t closed deck, but that’s relatively cheap to solve.

 

[Stkid93]

You are correct I have never experienced a hybrid turbo fist. I am making assumptions based on other big turbo cars. Typically the bigger the turbo, the more low end torque you lose. Torque is what makes the car fun and pushes you into your seat. That’s why Hondas don’t feel very fast. They have no torque.


Personally i would love to see these cars at 280-300 wheel with 360-400 wheel torque. I think that would be the most fun car you can have short of a super car

 

[RubenZZZ]

The only way the Fiesta ST would have seen a 2.0 engine would have been via a naturally aspirated, high-rpm engine.

That doesn't sound bad at all, actually. LOL

 

[vivix]

2L would have been cool but id settle for a stock turbo with a bit more overhead if we're making reasonable wishes.

 

[Stkid93]

yea a high revving 2 liter does sound cool. but they arent very tuneable either. the nice things about turbo cars are
1) they are so tuneable. just a tune on the fist and you are seeing + 20 horsepower and + 60 wheel torque, an e30 tune on the fist and you are seeing 100+ wheel torque and 30+ horsepower.
2) all the stuff is already there to put a turbo on. with an NA car tunes don't really give you anything, neither do intakes, exhausts etc. and if you wanted to put a turbo on, you gotta add all that stuff aftermarket.

In my perfect world, I think the fist should have come with an LSD, both port and direct injection mixture from the factory (a lot of companies are moving this way for valve cleaning) and they should either come with the 1.6 with a bigger turbo or a detuned 2 liter from the focus st. I think the way the engine is set up now, the turbo is working too hard even stock. That's a lot of boost for a little turbo, which makes a lot of heat. When you combined that with our undersized intercoolers, no wonder we have overheating issues.

In my opinion, the turbo and intercooler choice was a huge design flaw. If they wanted to go with the KP39, they should have at least given us a better radiator and intercooler. and maybe a small hood scoop or vents for cooling. These shortcomings are extremely apparent even if you dont track or auto-cross. On a decent length pull, our charge air temps can reach 170 degrees, at that temp the car is pulling so much boost and timing due to the heat to try to save the motor. its just not healthy. However, these changes would have driven the price up, although I think a ton of people would have been willing to pay an extra $1,000 or so for a better factory intercooler at the very least. But while I think the extra money is worth it for those changes. I can see how a lot of people cannot wrap their heads around a $24000-$28,000 fiesta.

 

[Zormecteon]

What no one seems to mention is the weight difference. The greatest thing about this car is the handling, and added weight would destroy the delicate balanced handling that the car has.

M2 2¢

 

[M-Sport fan]

The only way the Fiesta ST would have seen a 2.0 engine would have been via a naturally aspirated, high-rpm engine.

That doesn't sound bad at all, actually. LOL

NOT 'street legal', but;

https://www.mountunestore.com/produ...prod_strat=use_description&pr_rec_id=264b7e03

Then there was also an even less street legal, 2.4 liter, 300+HP, NA, ITB injected Global Rallycross Lights Duratec built by Mountune, but I cannot find a good pic/link to that one anywhere.

Then if you want to go absolutely bonkers NA, there are the custom built, 330+HP Millingtons as used in many updated Mk1 and Mk2 Escorts for Irish/Brit tarmac rallying.
But now we are talking ~3 to 4 times the co$t of what any of our cars are worth, just for the engine, before any machining, adapters, or ancillaries to make that beast work in our rides. LOL

BTW; I would have ecstatically paid OVER $1K more for this car to have a factory installed Quaife limited slip, as an option, or otherwise.

 

[Dpro]

What no one seems to mention is the weight difference. The greatest thing about this car is the handling, and added weight would destroy the delicate balanced handling that the car has.

M2 2¢

Excuse me I have mentioned the weight difference in at least one of my replies truth is op keeps on coming back to his original idea, barely acknowledging the points made by most of us. It‘s pretty much getting useless to respond at this point due to his own admitted fact he really does not have much if limited real experience with this stuff and is purely speculating untested ideas . Which is great unless a bunch of people explains that the ideas are flawed but he insists on carrying on about them.

 

[esp_martin]

yea a high revving 2 liter does sound cool. but they arent very tuneable either. the nice things about turbo cars are
1) they are so tuneable. just a tune on the fist and you are seeing + 20 horsepower and + 60 wheel torque, an e30 tune on the fist and you are seeing 100+ wheel torque and 30+ horsepower.
2) all the stuff is already there to put a turbo on. with an NA car tunes don't really give you anything, neither do intakes, exhausts etc. and if you wanted to put a turbo on, you gotta add all that stuff aftermarket.

In my perfect world, I think the fist should have come with an LSD, both port and direct injection mixture from the factory (a lot of companies are moving this way for valve cleaning) and they should either come with the 1.6 with a bigger turbo or a detuned 2 liter from the focus st. I think the way the engine is set up now, the turbo is working too hard even stock. That's a lot of boost for a little turbo, which makes a lot of heat. When you combined that with our undersized intercoolers, no wonder we have overheating issues.

In my opinion, the turbo and intercooler choice was a huge design flaw. If they wanted to go with the KP39, they should have at least given us a better radiator and intercooler. and maybe a small hood scoop or vents for cooling. These shortcomings are extremely apparent even if you dont track or auto-cross. On a decent length pull, our charge air temps can reach 170 degrees, at that temp the car is pulling so much boost and timing due to the heat to try to save the motor. its just not healthy. However, these changes would have driven the price up, although I think a ton of people would have been willing to pay an extra $1,000 or so for a better factory intercooler at the very least. But while I think the extra money is worth it for those changes. I can see how a lot of people cannot wrap their heads around a $24000-$28,000 fiesta.

I get this is a mental exercise and it's sparked a lot discussion. Which I can appreciate for sure.

We all have our "I wish" list for this car. For me, it would be an AWD system (or at the very least an independent rear suspension). For others, the ability to fit 10" wide tires with no bodywork alterations.

But all of those are as completely unrealistic as your 2.0L displacement wishes.

Could FoMoCo engineers have done any of the things we wanted? Probably. At least one of them anyway. Should they have? I think you're getting a definitive "no" from this group.

As surprisingly strong as the aftermarket is for the FiestaST, I don't think it was ever built for everyday modding in mind. In fact, I think it was actively discouraged. (edit: "actively discouraged" as in swapping engines/drivetrains from other vehicles that share the same platform like you see with Honda/Nissan types. something an every day mechanically inclined tuner can try over a few months; i don't mean the mods like what we do here which from a hardcore tuner isn't that hardcore...) The car executes what it was designed to do with a budget-friendly maintenance schedule (something that separates it from the Mini). the FWD spiritual sibling to the Miata as some like to say.

with the exception of an LSD, i really do think everything was taken into account in this build. and everything that was left out i believe was done on purpose. especially not putting a bigger displacement engine because a lot of other things would need to change in order to keep the Fiesta's same personality.

my guess is when you write "i wish this could have come with a 2.0L engine" a lot of people here read it as "i wish my Fiesta was completely different" so it makes people scratch their heads.

especially since slapping an S280 OR GTX2860R solves all but the low end torque issues you say you have (which i also don't get. unless you're coming from a diesel motor, "missing low end torque" is *not* something i would ever use to describe this car)

 

[SteveS]

People talking about LSD need to remember that Ford did add it as an option to the Mk 8 Fiesta ST, which we didn't get in the US because the Fiesta had already been discontinued here.

 

[Stkid93]

I guess what I’m trying to say is I love torque, it’s what makes the car feel fast. It’s what pushes you into your seat. It’s what makes the car enjoyable at regular rpm’s. Cars aren’t fun on the street if you have to be at 7k rpm to get any power.

never drove diesel motors. My srt4 had 389 wheel torque on 93, and 450 whee torque on e85. (Srt4 weights about 2800-2900 lbs so not much more than the fist) While my speed 3 made right around 400 wheel torque on e30. And because of the increased displacement you didn’t need to rev the motor as much to get the turbo to spool, throttle response on both was amazing. And there was still torque before the turbo fully spooled on both cars . So if I’m making around 300 wheel torque right now, I’m missing between 100-150 wheel torque from my previous cars (granted the speed 3 was 3300 lbs

now obviously the fists are not made for straight line speed. And the fist will out corner either of those cars any day and hold more speed on turns. The fist has strengths neither of my other cars did. But with that being said, that is my explanation for why I am missing the torque.

All that said, I love the fist. Not saying I would trade it for either of my previous cars. But, if There was a way to get 280 wheel hp and 360-400 wheel torque out of these things without having to go big turbo. Sign me up!

.
So I’m left at going hybrid turbo to get to my goal. But even the hybrid turbos move the powerband up some. so I’m afraid it will lose some of that City driving torque.

 

[Stkid93]

Also guys I’m sorry if it sounds like I’m ignoring what you say. I am reading everyone’s replies. But the point of the thread was to discuss putting a 2 liter in the fiesta. So I’m trying to keep things from getting too off topic. You are right, I have very limited experience.

 

[Stkid93]

just to add one more thing to my apology, I know my idea isn’t super realistic. I know the flaws. This thread was to simply day dream about our idea of a perfect fist. And share our dreams with others. Nothing about this thread was meant to be super realistic

 

[Geebs]

I like this thread....it's something different for sure. Only thing I would say is my FiST makes me think of the saying "lightening in a bottle". Not that it is perfect by any means, not that it is a racecar by any means, but somehow ford paired the right components together to make a really special little car. Almost everyone who drives it is impressed and the overall unanimous statement is "it makes me smile" or it "feels faster than it is" If they would have changed ANYTHING who knows what we would have gotten? Or maybe to put it differently....none of us would have gotten it it at all!