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Is Cobb selling us out?
- Thread starter Old Mike Emerson
- Start date
OP
Thread Starter
#24
Thread Starter
#24
I posted this thread because I only have a basic knowledge of tuning and am sitting on about 3 grand in parts that will require a tune to be able to use. I need to know if I have a bunch of expensive paper weights or if I'm going to be able to use them.
I've been following the EPA bullcrap for years, this round of crack downs started with the Rolling Coal crap, that gave them the open door the EPA needed to screw with all of us. We as car people are a very small part of the world, we will never have the voice needed to have things go our way. SEMA has done a lot to help but can only do so much. If these changes only effects not being able to run a catless down pipe great, I was not going that rout anyway.
I've been following the EPA bullcrap for years, this round of crack downs started with the Rolling Coal crap, that gave them the open door the EPA needed to screw with all of us. We as car people are a very small part of the world, we will never have the voice needed to have things go our way. SEMA has done a lot to help but can only do so much. If these changes only effects not being able to run a catless down pipe great, I was not going that rout anyway.
It seems like we as a group got lucky this time. the Subie guys, not so much (man it's like a double whammy with them discontinuing the STI as well recently)
Unfortunately, I have a feeling this won't be the last time we will be affected.
Enjoy your ICE engines while you can everyone, they won't get any more fun I'm afraid.
Unfortunately, I have a feeling this won't be the last time we will be affected.
Enjoy your ICE engines while you can everyone, they won't get any more fun I'm afraid.
Subie and GTR guys are kinda screwed. If anybody wonders why COBB did this it was for survival as a business. The EPA and CARB pretty much had a gun to Cobb’s head to make a metaphor. It was follow these rules or we will shut you down.
This did all get started by the dumb ass coal rollers. Unfortunately in typical fashion it’s always a few bad actors that wreck it for everyone.
This did all get started by the dumb ass coal rollers. Unfortunately in typical fashion it’s always a few bad actors that wreck it for everyone.
Beca
Because those tunes will not be available any longer..........so a car in good shape, not run into the dirt with quality work and a well known reliable tune will sell for more money to those is search for more than about 220 Hp. All tuners other than garage shop tunes will follow suit to try to dodge the EPA fines coming. Cobb did not have a sudden green streak.....they had lawyers, LOL! I believe the reason Ford backed off from Mountune was their decision to sell illegal tunes after working with Ford to EPA certify the MP-215. Ford also has lawyers, floors of them. Doing a search of the Ford Performance site the word "Mountune" no longer exists to Ford whereas they once sold the entire Mountune lineup, tough divorce. I see another big fine enforcement action and lots of news coverage of how the EPA is working to keep clean air by fining and/or putting tuners out of business. "The game is afoot", Sherlock Holmes. Poppin' popcorn for the main event, this should be interesting!
Because those tunes will not be available any longer..........so a car in good shape, not run into the dirt with quality work and a well known reliable tune will sell for more money to those is search for more than about 220 Hp. All tuners other than garage shop tunes will follow suit to try to dodge the EPA fines coming. Cobb did not have a sudden green streak.....they had lawyers, LOL! I believe the reason Ford backed off from Mountune was their decision to sell illegal tunes after working with Ford to EPA certify the MP-215. Ford also has lawyers, floors of them. Doing a search of the Ford Performance site the word "Mountune" no longer exists to Ford whereas they once sold the entire Mountune lineup, tough divorce. I see another big fine enforcement action and lots of news coverage of how the EPA is working to keep clean air by fining and/or putting tuners out of business. "The game is afoot", Sherlock Holmes. Poppin' popcorn for the main event, this should be interesting!
OP
Thread Starter
#28
Thread Starter
#28
In the same vain, we used to hang out at Arlington Plaza on Friday and Saturday night, I went to Boot Camp, was gone a couple of months, come back on leave and Arlington was shut down due to some dumbass ricer bikers doing burnouts on the sidewalk. I heard it was only 3 guys, they ruined it for 15/20 guys.
This is not about a "catless" pipe. The EPA made a public announcement they would crack down on illegal tunes starting with the diesel guys about 3 years ago. Last year they announced they were now going after the gas tuners and illegal parts suppliers. Nothing new in the laws.......just the EPA finally enforcing them. This is not a surprise thing, it is their announced plan to go after the polluters. The "open door" was opened many years ago with the welcomed Clean Air Act (CAA) of 1970 that formed the EPA so we did not have to breath the brown air any longer. Now they are enforcing violations as it was out of control. Be thankful they said they would no go after the consumer, just the suppliers. Take a look at the Mountune site and get a vision of their future. A total of 3 legal Mountune tunes now. They sell Ford Performance tunes for trucks. All illegal for the street parts are now in the performance/racing section and major bold print warnings on installation on street cars. No more "off road only" statements, the EPA nixed that silliness and will hold the makers responsible. So this will seriously affect modders. Forums like this one has provided the EPA with a long list of violating companies. The EPA started this investigation years ago, now some of those that were investigated are making changes, I'm sure both Cobb and Mountune were investigated and these changes are part of a plea bargain. Some may find folks to customize their tunes "under the table" but piss off one person and the dime will drop on them. Risky business for the next few years.
Yes this all started with some high volume diesel tuners in Florida selling poorly timed tunes so your pickem-ups tail pipe output can match your chinstrap beard. The epa went after the big ones that could afford big fines. Now I guess they realised the hardware and software providers for tunes can definitely afford to pay big fines as well.
Thankfully, most of the good efi system companies are located and manufactureed outside of America. So you're haltechs, wolf3d, life, syvecs, Bosch motorsports, will all be around for max effort and amateur built race cars. Even if the ones with American based distributors close up local operations, you can still import systems and spares. For a long time, you had to Deal with Australia for a wolf and haltech anyways. American operations are a newer thing....
Thankfully, most of the good efi system companies are located and manufactureed outside of America. So you're haltechs, wolf3d, life, syvecs, Bosch motorsports, will all be around for max effort and amateur built race cars. Even if the ones with American based distributors close up local operations, you can still import systems and spares. For a long time, you had to Deal with Australia for a wolf and haltech anyways. American operations are a newer thing....
For a tune to be "legal" it must be locked to the data as certified and cannot be changed by the user or maker without re-certification. The MP215 is married to the car to prevent it being resold for another vehicle or modified. Cobb must do the same things to become legal. They will it appears update your Stage one to legal by new software locking out changes. They said they will no longer support older tunes.
FYI, here is EPA court document showing the Cobb access ports were illegal in 2018. Why do folks think this is something new? The laws have not changed but enforcement has. Settlement with a gas tuner located in PA in 2018 charged for selling Cobb access ports and other illegal parts, good read if you skip to the last section that defines what the tuner must do for the settlement. Funny.....the same things Cobb said they were going to do. Stop selling illegal parts and tunes, I would think most access ports used are Cobb so new tunes from independent tuners will not be able to use the new AP's.
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2018-05/documents/evanstuningllc.pdf
https://www.epa.gov/sites/default/files/2018-05/documents/evanstuningllc.pdf
That lawsuit is from 2018 and Cobb has since redone their stage I and II tunes on the AP and have full EPA and CARB certification which overrides that lawsuit. In 2018 and until COBB got their recertification you would have a case for your argument you do not know. They effectively cannot sell anything that is not CARB certified in California or EPA certified in the 49 states hence why they have temporarily pulled their GESI 400 cell cat for our cars till they can achieve full certification. Sorry but your argument about COBB now selling illegal stuff right now is just wrong.
As far as tuners go it is not illegal to use the tuners and tunes on race cars so COBB can sell to that community and tuners can legally tune for that community provided the stuff stays on a track. That is the law in California currently and across the country. Though the EPA is trying hard to make it illegal for people to turn street cars into tracks cars and ya that is real and it is going on .
As far as tuners go it is not illegal to use the tuners and tunes on race cars so COBB can sell to that community and tuners can legally tune for that community provided the stuff stays on a track. That is the law in California currently and across the country. Though the EPA is trying hard to make it illegal for people to turn street cars into tracks cars and ya that is real and it is going on .
What do you think this means for the aftermarket tuners (Dizzy, Stratified etc...) are they out of business?? From what I read it specifically targets the tuners ability to turn off or bypass codes that may pop up due to the addition of certain aftermarket parts. I see nothing about tuning in general but I no nothing about parameters that are altered in the vehicle to lets say, add a new turbo. As long as nothing is bypassed or "cheated" in order to pass emissions restrictions is it really that big of a deal? Not trying to argue with anyone here, I'm just curious. For the record, I was literally ready to pull the trigger on a hybrid turbo and sport catted DP last week Tuesday when I saw the press release, needless to say I am waiting until I get some solid facts. I almost purchased 2 weeks ago but held off for some reason (money)....maybe I was lucky!!
Jason’s (Dizzy) response was in the original post. Tuners won’t be able to tune out codes, the biggest one that affects our platform specifically is the P0420 for catless downpipes. Don’t even get me started on catless street cars... Tuning isn’t really the issue being pushed at the moment. The reason Subbie guys are screwed is because they delete air pumps, TGV, cats etc.
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