"LSD" option I can make happen and soon, read full post before commenting please:)

[RAAMaudio]

I have some strong points in this thread for good reason so please read it through with the understanding I am working to help us all out and want to keep this on the right note and move forward as soon as possible

"LSD" why written this way?

Because many naysayers about what it can, can't, won't, last, work, etc...........I have heard it all.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING NEGATIVE TO SAY, back it up with FACTS or please do not post unless you can substantiate what you have to say

If you do have Facts to back up what you wish to post then by all means I really want to hear them, of course

Phantom Grip

I have had great personal experience with boosted FWD cars using them. I have sent them a diff from a brand new car and had a working unit sent back to me within a week, back in 2002. I built a super fast, Street Mod class, the first turbo charged 1ZZ Matrix, anywhere, and needed an LSD but none were available so I gave it a try and it simple WORKED, amazingly well.

That is my ex red Matrix on their home page by the way

I have owned many LSD units and the PG was the smoothest, most linear and easy to drive and it worked exceptionally well on all types of surfaces, hot asphalt, concrete, cold and sandy, wet, snow, packed dirt, gravel.....The only other diff I know that works as smoothly, meaning you can drive faster into and out of corners, is the big bucks OS Giken and I bought one of those before as well.

I have had three custom built BMW diffs, one race and one street custom Vette, full JDM STI drivetrain under a Forester XT, several Miata race and street cars, Scion and the Matrix with PG, and more, gear driven, disk, etc.....so a bit of experience with LSDs though of course as always there are those that know more, have had more, etc....that is part of life......

I have no vested interest in this other than I want an "LSD" and have used several of these since and always loved the results.

Thousands of units have been installed in cars all over and thousands have been totally satisfied with the results.

I have only had one person ever even come close to convincing me they had a problem caused by one of these units, it was a very high powered RWD car with slicks and an old diff so what really caused it is impossible to really determine.

Every other internet gossip story I chased down ended up in he said, she said, rumors, period.

AGAIN, if you have something negative to say then post facts to back it up, please, I am working to help everyone get something that works, does not need the diff setup but a specialty tech, and costs around $350, not start a thread filled with nonsense.

I have been trying to get the exact model number of the transaxle in this car to see if they could match up anything they have done for another car but no luck yet so I might pull my diff out and send it off to them.

Once done then it does not take long before they are in stock.

If you are interested in getting a great working "LSD" for a great price, easiest to install(taking apart a transaxle is not for the faint of heart but once to the diff the unit is a simple install) then this is the only option there is and it can happen rather quickly.

I am retired, I have several parts I could make happen under my brand name and start an ST business easily but I am only doing this to help others and myself get great parts for our particular needs, any vendors want to step in and take over I am more than happy to offer advice, contact info, or just stand back and let it roll......

Let's hear what you have to say, thanks
Rick

 

[Sekred]

A LSD for around $350 would be great, what negativity are you talking about, have I missed something here?. Past history?, got a link?, how does it work? (your LSD).

 

[RAAMaudio]

1) yes, $350, not a true LSD in the normal sense why I type it "LSD" but they worked great for my needs and the company that is working on the 11.75" BBK to fit 15" wheels has had many years of good use from them, swears by them in fact.

2) Over the years I have heard many things about them saying they do not work, broke the diff, etc.....I figured the naysayers are still around somewhere so posted this up front for all to see, if you hear bad things, ask them to prove it, none ever have to me and the many many racers that have used them, none I know of had any problems, only praise.

3) http://www.phantomgrip.com/ (my old red Matrix is on their front page, did not know that until just the other day

4) Two proprietary alloy blocks pushed apart by high grade springs with the proper tension for race or street as chosen, adds pressure to the spider gears to keep them ingaged but does so very linear, very smooth operation.

 

[Sekred]

Ok, I did a bit of google research and now I understand the history and some of the negativity behind the concept.
Your post makes sense now.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Thanks for digging in and taking a look, if you ever find anything substantial showing why we should not use this unit please let me know as I have found nothing but also have not looked in quite some time. All my experiences and every single person I know that has used them has been incredibly positive and I am going to do it again as well as selling my house and will not have a place to work if there were to be a problem but I trust it enough to take the time to install it

 

[the duke]

Ok, I did a bit of google research and now I understand the history and some of the negativity behind the concept.
Your post makes sense now.

You're inducing bind by pressing the spider gears against the box plates. I'm not sure I like the way that loads on the gears...


<---Engineer

 

[RAAMaudio]

Not everything is explainable by traditional thought. I too was very concerned with them back in 2002 when needed an LSD and none available but made a deal to send mine in and they used it to prototype one for that particular transaxle and it worked incredibly well. The brake company I am working with has a really long history with them and a bit list of clients that have been 100% satisfied with the results.

I have had many LSD units, street, race, big bucks, several diffs built for $3-4k....and the PG was the smoothest one of all and it simply did the job, very well.

If not for being retired and on a budget now, still getting used to that, I might consider an OS Giken for $1800 but would have to find a way to have one machined to fit this car so more money on top of that and I have high end stuff built, I would easily be into it for at least $2500 but could be $3k.

For $350 I can give the PG a try, even if the very worst happened I can replace the transaxle for less than the cost of the OS Giken....and believe me that unit is far superior to the others because of how it engages and dis-engauges, more like a PG actually

As soon as I finish up the downpipe and 3" exhaust build I will pull the diff to send it in, I am doing this for me and for you

Rick

 

[the duke]

Not everything is explainable by traditional thought. I too was very concerned with them back in 2002 when needed an LSD and none available but made a deal to send mine in and they used it to prototype one for that particular transaxle and it worked incredibly well. The brake company I am working with has a really long history with them and a bit list of clients that have been 100% satisfied with the results.

I have had many LSD units, street, race, big bucks, several diffs built for $3-4k....and the PG was the smoothest one of all and it simply did the job, very well.

If not for being retired and on a budget now, still getting used to that, I might consider an OS Giken for $1800 but would have to find a way to have one machined to fit this car so more money on top of that and I have high end stuff built, I would easily be into it for at least $2500 but could be $3k.

For $350 I can give the PG a try, even if the very worst happened I can replace the transaxle for less than the cost of the OS Giken....and believe me that unit is far superior to the others because of how it engages and dis-engauges, more like a PG actually

As soon as I finish up the downpipe and 3" exhaust build I will pull the diff to send it in, I am doing this for me and for you

Rick

Well, an open diff essentially works by planetary gearsets. That's why it the power gets sent to one wheel only (in most cases), it simply locks one of the rings/gears and rotation changes and power is "sent" to the other wheel. At least that's how it was on my previous diffs. LSDs either use a bind-inducing gear-set (basically they intentionally bind against itself/housing to induce a locking state), or you do something like a viscous diff which uses shear forces in the fluid to control movement or a clutch-type which just uses a traditional friction plate assemblies to lock like a clutch in a transmission. The whole point of the "torque vectoring" on the ST siblings is that it applies a load to induce one of the gearsets in the open diff to "lock" and shift power to the opposite wheel, which is generally the outside wheel to push the grip to the outer wheel that is driving the rotation of the car (going around a corner). The inner wheel is loaded with the brake being applied, thus "shifting" the power to the outer wheel. It's a neat trick that is pretty effective, however I still prefer a mechanical locking diff (personal preference).


I'm not saying it won't work, but I question it's durability. Admittedly I haven't really looked into it, I'm just going by thier website. I also don't know what the design of the ST open diff is, maybe it just locks a gearset, but generally gears are designed with a specific loading and cut for specific loads. If you start adding loading in areas not intended, undo stress on bearings, flex of materials, accelerated wear can occur. At face value I sorta see this as someone welding spider gears together for to permanently lock the diff.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Engineers are the hardest to please with the simple answers some of the none engineers come up with and I highly respect and understand your position on this.

I would have to look some of this up as a refresher to my memory, experiences, studies, etc but there are differences in how each type of LSD works, one will stop acting as one if you lift a wheel, clutch types need to be altered for heavier use and then you have far more of an on and off switch that can upset the car considerable when driven at speed. A modified ramp angle can hugely improve that type but it takes hand machining and great experience to know how to do it right. The OS Giken uses up to 20 disks and is tunable to your liking, very linear from unlocked to full lock is possible making it a much faster diff, fluid is specific and expensive for it.

Personally I do not have long term results to post with the PG as I usually kept my project cars a year or two and moved on but I did get to run the turbo Matris in many higher speed autocrosses and it was incredibly fast for a top heavy FWD car, superb in gravel at 100+ MPH, climbing up and over a seldom used paved mountain pass with some dampness, sand washed over the surface just around a bend....at rally pace speeds.

Others have had units installed for a great deal of time without issue, it was the spec part for a Mini race series at one point.

I have to admit that I do not buy cars and expect them to last forever as I mod them and drive them hard and sometimes I wear them out, the keepers that is which has been only a few out of dozens or cars and trucks.

I really like how this unit works on track, mountains, autocross, etc....it just does and I have never felt it lock, unlock, etc, just there as needed meaning I am not spending part of my experience working around a changing variable when at speed which can only be made better with a clutch LSD with custom ramps or the OS Giken that I know of.

I can replace a transaxle for less than the cost of those options so the PG is what I intend to go with.

A true test would be two identically prepared cars, or make that several cars, with differnt LSD units, tested by either one very competent driver, or several drivers trading off, data log and compare the results, lap times, sector times, how deep one can brake, how soon one can get on the throttle, etc.......

Not likely to happen so I will just have to see what I feel when I do this.

-----------------------

I was thinking over if I have ever had a viscous unit, it might of been the center unit if the Forester XT that I had a JDM drivetrain in, it was one fast Forester but simply to easy to go fast thus a bit boring so I parted it out and traded it on a street Vette which I modded to the point it was pointless as a street car, simply to fast to be safe on public roads because on the edge is what is fun, not going fast but well under the capabilities of a given vehicle. The single most important part of that car was the custom diff I had built for it, somewhere over $3k, gearing made a huge impact on the car and cost just 1MPG which is not big deal as it still got 27 when cruising.

 

[the duke]

Give it a shot and see how it goes. If you've had good results in the past, try it out. The diff in the ST is a simple open differential, and the torque vectoring should be unaffected by the binding with the plates.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Thanks, I need to call them and make arrangements to send my diff to them.

I figured the TV would not be an issue though under some conditions might kick in a bit and that might be a good thing, will find out before to long I hope

 

[iso100]

I've had great results in the past autocrossing on a Quaife torque-biasing (not limited-slip if we're being pedantic) differential in an 81 VW Scirocco I was campaigning in F Street Prepared. Took 1st place in my region the three years I ran it.

If you lift one wheel in a Quaife or Peloquin, you have an open diff. You must have "some" grip on both wheels for it to bias the torque to the better-gripped one.

Locking differentials and those with clutches don't have this issue but aren't as smooth in their power redistribution (the worst being differentials like the "Detroit Locker" that audibly clicked and banged when engaging).

If I recall correctly the Quaife was around $750.

 

[rodmoe]

I've had great results in the past autocrossing on a Quaife torque-biasing (not limited-slip if we're being pedantic) differential in an 81 VW Scirocco I was campaigning in F Street Prepared. Took 1st place in my region the three years I ran it.

If you lift one wheel in a Quaife or Peloquin, you have an open diff. You must have "some" grip on both wheels for it to bias the torque to the better-gripped one.

Locking differentials and those with clutches don't have this issue but aren't as smooth in their power redistribution (the worst being differentials like the "Detroit Locker" that audibly clicked and banged when engaging).

If I recall correctly the Quaife was around $750.

Not to steel this thread but the Quiafe for our FiST is closer to 1100 after shipping..

 

[iso100]

Wow, quite a bit more expensive. Must be because the ST is new over here?

 

[RAAMaudio]

I am dropping the transaxle in a day or so, taking some measurements, they might have one that fits right in so I would have the car back together in just a few days. I have a great deal of it apart already as installing a bigger IC, working on the DP and final exhaust build, battery is in the rear now, no intake on just yet as building one.....I am going to port the stock turbo manifold and maybe the teeny turbo to run while waiting to get an ATP.

I did not know when I bought the car I was going to end up making most of the parts for it I want, or deeply involved with manufactures to develop parts, fun stuff though!

 

[rodmoe]

I am dropping the transaxle in a day or so, taking some measurements, they might have one that fits right in so I would have the car back together in just a few days. I have a great deal of it apart already as installing a bigger IC, working on the DP and final exhaust build, battery is in the rear now, no intake on just yet as building one.....I am going to port the stock turbo manifold and maybe the teeny turbo to run while waiting to get an ATP.

I did not know when I bought the car I was going to end up making most of the parts for it I want, or deeply involved with manufactures to develop parts, fun stuff though!

I will be taking mine out too so we can compare notes, Should Be fun..

 

[RAAMaudio]

Do you have a manual on taking it apart and putting it back together? The dealer printed it out for me but there is not much text and some of the putting it back seems rather odd compared to others I have done. It is probably pretty easy though.

What are you doing to yours?

 

[rodmoe]

Yes I have a Helms CD or DVD whichever the PC reads it.. And yes this manual is mostly pictures and a bit of verbage now and then...
Yes it looks somewhat like the Honda Trans I have had open though it looks like this one has only one big gear set as opposed to the two in the others i have worked in if I recall correctly..
I am going to install the Quaife that has been sitting in my basement for a few months waiting to warm weather and the parts to be all gathered up to make it a quick swap and not have to wait on parts. Diff bearings are the worst as I had to wait for FORD and gave up on that so I sourced them from the UK. and will see if the number of the bearings match what I take out LOL live and learn ya know .. Oh and finding the right Factory oil is kinda fun too LOL Fun thing about this is what i have read is the ESC works well with loading the zero traction wheel so I am hoping I get little to none of the faults of the Torque biasing LSD if a wheel should have zero traction.. may have to run in sport mode a few time then in full off to see how well it works.. It is a rather spendy mod compared to your route but I have wanted a this LSD since i first read about the ST lol I know kinda snobby but this is my project and I never had a Quaife yet so we will see if it lives up to the Hype..
I will start my own thread when i do so i don't sidetrack your work.. Also I will be putting my Levels FMIC on when i assemble the car so I will have the front bumber off first thing tomorrow for more room to work
Good Luck and safe wrenching ..

 

[RAAMaudio]

Sounds like fun and you are very well prepared, I have never swap bearings on an "LSD" install as they were always brand new transaxles so hopefully I do not have on this one. Since it has 293 miles on it I plan to drain and run the lube through a coffee filter and reuse it also.

I hope I am not going to have to get parts but if I do I do.

I had the diff built for my M3 LS powered monster so know what things can cost, REM polished, all new bearings, seals, etc...the LSD was $1800, total was over $3k and that was less than the one I had built for my Vette race car, that one was around $4k!

Now I am retired and learning to have less fun money but then again, I do not have to work any longer so get to play all day

I have the engine hanger tool that sits over and on the tops of the upper frame rails, am going to use that and try to just lower the engine enough to get the transaxle off so I do not have to undue much, not sure it will work but will not take long to try.

I will be watching your thread

Have fun!
Rick

 

[Sekred]

Can't wait to see how this Quaife preforms Rod. Also, I thought I recall reading somewhere that if switch off the traction control and ESC, the torque vectoring still operates?