Best Turbos

[ronmcdon]

based on what specific factors are you saying above 280whp is useless on the street?

not trying to be confrontational just genuinely curious. hope one of the reasons arent horrid torque steer and poor traction.

 

[JDG]

based on what specific factors are you saying above 280whp is useless on the street?

not trying to be confrontational just genuinely curious. hope one of the reasons arent horrid torque steer and poor traction.

While I disagree with @jeff 's broad point. I do agree that more than 280WHP is useless in first and second gear and therefore accelerating from a dig. In third gear though, on a good back road, I think 350WHP is perfect and way more exhilarating. Torque steer is definitely present, but can be managed with other modifications and is not horrendous by any means.

And then obviously for highway pulls, more power is always going to be better, but I agree with Jeff that at that point, we are talking triple digit speeds (4th gear+) and likely dangerous speeds which I don't think is worth debating in a thread like this as we all live in different parts of the country/world and have different opinions on.

It's clear based on your other vehicles that 350WHP will be more than manageable, just understand that it will likely be more lively than an evo with similar power levels because of the FWD.

As someone who has used four different turbos on this platform (includes stock unit), my current setup with the S280 is the perfect balance of low end torque (quick spool) and top end power for highway fun.

 

[Intuit]

I'm looking at getting what Pumaspeed "claim" to offer (without actually using them due to their reputation), between 300 and 380bhp without serious loss of reliability and economy. I'd be happy getting what I used to get in mpg from my FoST. I'm not too bothered about the car becoming a bit of a beast handling and performance wise because I used to ride high performance motorcycles.

Goals are incompatible.

First, I'd forget about chasing mc performance. Just forget it. You already know that >99% of cages have nothing for a stock 599cc high performance m'cycle. Off the line, you will inevitably start breaking stuff and not even begin sniffing the tailpipe.

Second, you'll need to decide on committing to *serious* modification ($,$$$) -or- significantly reigning in those numbers. Make that decision now and stick with it. You're talking a 50 to 90% increase in power (on a FWD, open differential) without affecting reliability and economy. Economy is mostly about weight, displacement and accelerator so that's attainable. But you'll definitely be cutting into the life of the engine (and potentially clutch) as you push higher RPM/HP numbers.

 

[jeff]

based on what specific factors are you saying above 280whp is useless on the street?

not trying to be confrontational just genuinely curious. hope one of the reasons arent horrid torque steer and poor traction.

Torque steer, traction, practical usability, and overall balance in the car's performance.

While I disagree with @jeff 's broad point. I do agree that more than 280WHP is useless in first and second gear and therefore accelerating from a dig. In third gear though, on a good back road, I think 350WHP is perfect and way more exhilarating. Torque steer is definitely present, but can be managed with other modifications and is not horrendous by any means.

I respect your build and appreciate the comments. However if the only time I could use all my power was in third gear on a good back road, I don't know that I'd say it was worth having the power and investing the money in the car, but we disagree and that's fine.

To restate what I alluded to above, and @JDG mentioned this as well, >280whp is useless until about 50mph. At that point you (a) break speed laws (b) put yourself and others in danger doing 80mph anywhere outside of the interstate and track.

***
If I were doing it all over again I'd change nothing. I'm just saying this stuff lately here and there because I read about so many who want to get xxx power and don't realize they'll never be able to use it. Imho think a bit and build the car in a way that's reasonable for the amount of traction we get, no matter the tires, and for what the suspension/tranny can handle. Turnaround is out of control. In my time here I've seen a dozen cars blow up because the owner wanted xxx power and three dozen other builds achieve xxx power, realize it's unusable, and sell the car a few months later. It's like a broken record and I'm trying to save people from repeating the pattern.

Here's a video I made on the subject that might help:

View: https://youtu.be/4xEaTZpqKUw

 

[Taz]

Whilst I totally agree with not being able to use the power in built up areas, we are not only forgetting about major out of town roads but also multi lane motorways/freeways, where I can quite easily see that power being used, especially on our relatively unpatrolled motorways. I mean, it's rare that I even see speed cameras on our motorways, let alone the fuzz! There's only one set of motorway speed cameras that I know of in Devon and that's going into and out of Plymouth.

 

[Taz]

Goals are incompatible.

First, I'd forget about chasing mc performance. Just forget it. You already know that >99% of cages have nothing for a stock 599cc high performance m'cycle. Off the line, you will inevitably start breaking stuff and not even begin sniffing the tailpipe.

Second, you'll need to decide on committing to *serious* modification ($,$$$) -or- significantly reigning in those numbers. Make that decision now and stick with it. You're talking a 50 to 90% increase in power (on a FWD, open differential) without affecting reliability and economy. Economy is mostly about weight, displacement and accelerator so that's attainable. But you'll definitely be cutting into the life of the engine (and potentially clutch) as you push higher RPM/HP numbers.

Oh yes, I understand that about cars v motorcycles. I was just pointing out that I can handle anything a tuned FiST can throw at me. I've seen a 300bhp FiST being test driven and its tendency to be somewhat "twitchy" on acceleration due to the power to weight, and it just looked exhilarating to me, a bit like being back on the ol' motorcycle again! I just thought I could push it a bit further power wise and get a bit more fun out of it. But again, I understand about the life of the engine. I'll have a further think about it and examine some other tuned FiSTs, and try to make a balance between life of the engine and fun I can get out of it. I might even end up going with the 300bhp yet in order to save on stress on the engine.

P.S. I'm beginning to think Pumaspeed are being extremely over confident with their claims about being able to boost the hp to 380 whilst retaining reliability and economy.

 

[The_Ryan]

Torque steer, traction, practical usability, and overall balance in the car's performance.



I respect your build and appreciate the comments. However if the only time I could use all my power was in third gear on a good back road, I don't know that I'd say it was worth having the power and investing the money in the car, but we disagree and that's fine.

To restate what I alluded to above, and @JDG mentioned this as well, >280whp is useless until about 50mph. At that point you (a) break speed laws (b) put yourself and others in danger doing 80mph anywhere outside of the interstate and track.

***
If I were doing it all over again I'd change nothing. I'm just saying this stuff lately here and there because I read about so many who want to get xxx power and don't realize they'll never be able to use it. Imho think a bit and build the car in a way that's reasonable for the amount of traction we get, no matter the tires, and for what the suspension/tranny can handle. Turnaround is out of control. In my time here I've seen a dozen cars blow up because the owner wanted xxx power and three dozen other builds achieve xxx power, realize it's unusable, and sell the car a few months later. It's like a broken record and I'm trying to save people from repeating the pattern.

Here's a video I made on the subject that might help:

View: https://youtu.be/4xEaTZpqKUw

Don’t worry @jeff . You’re advice isn’t totally falling on deaf ears! I’m listening to you!

 

[akiraproject24]

Still on the fence whether to jump to a hybrid. Have yet to fully experience the Dizzy stg 2 and even load the E30. This spring the traction bar and wheels and tires go on. After playing with the cobb tc will then look into the hybrid turbo. For me this also means finding someone I can trust to install the hybrid in my neck of the woods.

 

[M-Sport fan]

For me this also means finding someone I can trust to install the hybrid in my neck of the woods.

Sadly, I am getting more and more convinced that this will involve a road trip, and a hotel stayover for a few nights somewhere (if it is one's only car), since our area is not exactly SoCal/etc. as far as great installers/tuner shops go.

 

[CSM]

I tend to agree with @jeff comments regarding usable power and the Fiesta platform. I am at about 280whp on my E30 tune, and I love to autocross both of my cars. Last season, even with wide sticky 200TW tires, traction was a nightmare in my Fiesta. The car was quite a handful and I ended up enjoying autocrossing my FRS more due to it being way more balanced. I am hoping that my LSD and even stickier RT660s will cure those woes, but for what I like to do in my cars, I can't imagine putting more than 300whp through the Fiesta especially with the wheel and tire size limitation

 

[Dpro]

I tend to agree with @jeff comments regarding usable power and the Fiesta platform. I am at about 280whp on my E30 tune, and I love to autocross both of my cars. Last season, even with wide sticky 200TW tires, traction was a nightmare in my Fiesta. The car was quite a handful and I ended up enjoying autocrossing my FRS more due to it being way more balanced. I am hoping that my LSD and even stickier RT660s will cure those woes, but for what I like to do in my cars, I can't imagine putting more than 300whp through the Fiesta especially with the wheel and tire size limitation

Ya Jeff is pretty on point except he is running a X47which is a Hybrid and Hybrid’s are known for unruly TQ on the bottom end. He also focus‘s on HP rather than the TQ yet the TQ is the stuff that spins wheels and people get lost on that. They shoot for HP without thinking about the TQ. TQ is a big factor.

I test drove a car locally with a Whoosh Hybrid and it was just silly in the bottom end. Thats part of why I picked the S280. It tends to have less TQ in the low rpm ranges than a Hybrid does..

I can honestly say I am very happy with the S280 for that reason. I can still launch with it and I am not overly smoking my tires. In fact right after it came back from the dyno with the previous tune I took a friend who happens to own a 500HP fully built RB25DET sporting a T4 240Z . I hit 50 just going down the block and he was like oh shit it hooks up.
I was a bit surprised that it impressed so much and happy.

Do I need to do that all the time no do people tend to drive fast around here? Ya so while that was a little nutty as its a side street,on the main drags you can get away with it. lol
Oh anything under 80 on the freeways here does not get looked at by the CHP, so ya I can use the power and I do.

It really is down to a few factors and what your area is like. At the same time I do not disagree 280-300HP on the street for our cars is absolutely perfect. Once one goes over it turns into exactly what Jeff talks about in the vid.

Though picking your Turbo also affects the situation as well its not quite as cut and dried IMO as Jeff thinks it is.
I appreciate the fact that Jeff took the time to make a video like above as it creates more discussion of the fact.

 

[Taz]

Just been having a look for those speed cameras near Plymouth I mentioned. They were digital "average speed cameras" stretched right across the road, but I think they might have taken them down because there were extensive road works going on at the time. THESE are what we mostly get in the UK, especially in the towns and cities. They're BIG and easy to see, and the old ones are rarely functional because I believe the film was too expensive; that and the police had to keep refilling the cameras. It was more the threat of them functioning that keeps people slowing down. Even the digital ones aren't a problem if you know the area, hence where they are. It's the mobile camera vans that are the tricksy ones.

 

[jeff]

Ya Jeff is pretty on point except he is running a X47R...

Though picking your Turbo also affects the situation as well its not quite as cut and dried IMO as Jeff thinks it is.
I appreciate the fact that Jeff took the time to make a video like above as it creates more discussion of the fact.

For reference I have X47. And even if I take it easy and don't give it the beans until 4000 rpms, I still spin tires. Today (it was about 40 degrees outside) I floored it in 3rd on the interstate ramp merging and the tires broke loose. So I agree that picking a turbo with a power band moved the the right (later spool) does affect things but not as much as you might suggest, spinning will still happen.

If you guys want to really see what I'm talking about, visit my channel and find my video on traction control, I do a good bit more real life explaining and demonstrating on how it works and why it's needed, there's some good stuff there about how easily tires break loose.

Truth be told I stopped shopping for turbos 3 years ago when I found my holy grail and don't know as much about the newer offerings. I lurk in the threads on the ones mentioned here but don't know enough to really comment on them aside from what I have. I will say I have compared power graphs between the S280 and Whoosh turbos and my car and power levels are about identical, within about 1%, when comparing tuning on the same fuel.

 

[ronmcdon]

While I disagree with @jeff 's broad point. I do agree that more than 280WHP is useless in first and second gear and therefore accelerating from a dig. In third gear though, on a good back road, I think 350WHP is perfect and way more exhilarating. Torque steer is definitely present, but can be managed with other modifications and is not horrendous by any means.

And then obviously for highway pulls, more power is always going to be better, but I agree with Jeff that at that point, we are talking triple digit speeds (4th gear+) and likely dangerous speeds which I don't think is worth debating in a thread like this as we all live in different parts of the country/world and have different opinions on.

It's clear based on your other vehicles that 350WHP will be more than manageable, just understand that it will likely be more lively than an evo with similar power levels because of the FWD.

As someone who has used four different turbos on this platform (includes stock unit), my current setup with the S280 is the perfect balance of low end torque (quick spool) and top end power for highway fun.

yeah I'm genuinely curious with the fiesta what the sweet spot is in terms of power levels.

really want to have the power be usable in the way it's fun for street and canyon driving, as well as have reliability in mind. would imagine at a certain level too much power is not optimal for track driving either. It's good to know what the sweet spot is. I also get the sense a lot of this has to do with the way the power is delivered and not just peak power/torque figures.

280whp being optimal is actually kinda optimistic to me. with wavetrack lsd, 16x8 wheels, 205 dunlop z3 tires, polyu lca bushings, upgraded rmm, trans and pass mts, still getting a bit more torque steer and would like more traction and want to find ways to improve that further. my evo and camaro got more traction, but being much larger and heavier cars they're not as nimble and fun street cars imo. don't think I can realistically get the traction of an evo in the fiesta, but want to try to improve it as much as I can, but sadly other than getting wider wheels and rubber, not sure theres anything more one can do.

 

[TemecFist]

Ya Jeff is pretty on point except he is running a X47R which is a Hybrid and Hybrid’s are known for unruly TQ on the bottom end. He also focus‘s on HP rather than the TQ yet the TQ is the stuff that spins wheels and people get lost on that. They shoot for HP without thinking about the TQ. TQ is a big factor.

I test drove a car locally with a Whoosh Hybrid and it was just silly in the bottom end. Thats part of why I picked the S280. It tends to have less TQ in the low rpm ranges than a Hybrid does..

I can honestly say I am very happy with the S280 for that reason. I can still launch with it and I am not overly smoking my tires. In fact right after it came back from the dyno with the previous tune I took a friend who happens to own a 500HP fully built RB25DET sporting a T4 240Z . I hit 50 just going down the block and he was like oh shit it hooks up.
I was a bit surprised that it impressed so much and happy.

Do I need to do that all the time no do people tend to drive fast around here? Ya so while that was a little nutty as its a side street on the main drags you can get away with it. lol
Oh anything under 80 on the freeways here does not get looked at by the CHP so ya I can use the power and I do.

It really is down to a few factors and what your area is like at the same time I do not disagree 280-300HP on the street for ours is absolutely perfect. One one goes over it turns into exactly what Jeff talks about in the vid.

Though picking your Turbo also affects the situation as well its not quite as cut and dried IMO as Jeff thinks it is.
I appreciate the fact that Jeff took the time to make a video like above as it creates more discussion of the fact.

Have you had to smog your car here in Cali with the S280 yet?

 

[jeff]

Interestingly C&D just published this article today. The Kia K5 GT has less power than we're discussing but the same issues we are discussing. Reading this you might replace "Kia K5 GT" with "280whp Fiesta ST" and much of what is said would apply. To quote:

"Kia's handsome new front-drive K5 GT family sedan makes a healthy 290 horsepower. Now it just needs to be able to apply it to the road better...Conventional wisdom says that 300 horsepower is about the practical limit for a front-wheel-drive car. It's all about basic physics: When a car accelerates, its weight shifts to the rear, and that's not ideal when the front tires are trying to drag the car around (and even less so if those tormented contact patches are also trying to cope with steering inputs). Certain front-drive cars manage to breach the 300-hp threshold and acceptably get away with it, and by "certain" we mean the Honda Civic Type R. Which brings us to the second part of the K5 GT conundrum, which is that Kia hasn't done anything in particular to help the car deploy its furious power. If the equation is 290 horsepower plus X equals forward progress, the K5 is chewing on its pencil, stumped. How about stickier tires? Or all-wheel drive? The K5 GT is a well-designed package, handsome inside and out. But it's not quite finished. Whether Kia gives it all-wheel drive or better tires, the GT needs more traction. Until then, roast 'em if you got 'em...."

Tested: 2021 Kia K5 GT Has Unfinished Business (caranddriver.com)

 

[XR650R]

Yup. Making power isn't the problem, is it? Converting it to forward motion is a little trickier. I'm on a "stage 2" with stock turbo, and the first 2 gears are useless. Still spins in 3rd.

 

[Ford ST]

If you watch the reviews on the Kia and Hyundai products that is the problem they are having great power numbers but just a tire spinning mess.
Honda put a tremendous amount of engineering into the Civic type r to produce the power that it does and actually get it down on the road. Of course you pay for it as well it's quite expensive for just a Honda Civic.



Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[Lays]

Yup. Making power isn't the problem, is it? Converting it to forward motion is a little trickier. I'm on a "stage 2" with stock turbo, and the first 2 gears are useless. Still spins in 3rd.

If you're spinning 3rd on stock turbo you need better tires and suspension work, I barely spin in 3rd with ~370 whp on S280 lol

 

[XR650R]

If you're spinning 3rd on stock turbo you need better tires and suspension work, I barely spin in 3rd with ~370 whp on S280 lol

I know, but I don't really drive it that hard. I just like to know it'll giddy-up when I want it to.