Faust's H Street Flailings

[faust]

Just had a full autox weekend, with a practice on Saturday, and event on Sunday.

Saturday was hot for here (mid 90s in the afternoon & very humid). My biggest takeaway had to do with tire pressures.

Last season (my first) I got a set of 16" sparcos with a pretty fresh set of Conti ECSes, and drove on them at a couple events. Was running in the high 30s PSI and they seemed good. At my first event this year, a month ago, the tires were not working well at all. We only got 3 runs before lightning closed us down, so I didn't figure out what was up.

On Saturday I took the time to chalk up the tires and check pressure after each lap, and realized I needed to be running way more pressure up front. Had to go up to 44.5 to keep them from rolling. The rear seemed happy at 36. Wish I'd taken the time to experiment with how higher pressure in the back affected handling, but I was overheated & wanted to save something for Sunday.

Sunday started out much better than the previous event, now that the tire pressures were more appropriate. Got a little faster in each of my first 3 runs, though I hit a cone on the 3rd & fastest. Never matched that 3rd lap in the second session, though at least I got a faster clean lap.

Part of the course on Sunday had been set up at practice Saturday, so I was able to compare video, and I realized that I ran the faster of the slaloms about 6mph slower in my later laps Sunday! Not sure why, maybe since that's where I hit a cone on my best lap. Here's that clean lap, happy for any other pointers on where to pick up time.

 

[faust]

Had a warm-for-here event this weekend (upper 80's and very humid).

The driving was fun. I blew the second corner on my second run, and that got me out of the overly conservative mindset I've been in this year. Hadn't realized it but I just hadn't been pushing the car very hard, which would explain why my times haven't been good.

Fiddled with tire pressure a little more, and was still seeing a little roll over onto the front sidewalls with hot temps as high as 49psi. Wondering if that's just how it is with ECSs on a 0 camber car. Only have a few more events this year, leaning towards RE-71s next spring.

Had a couple heat related issue in the last few runs: the CEL turned on, which appears to be due to the issue from https://www.fiestastforum.com/threads/cel-light-on-this-morning-on-way-to-work-p26b7.8086/. Haven't had a chance to fiddle with the connection yet, hope it's just that. While looking around under the hood, I also noticed that the brake fluid had boiled over a bit. It's still running whatever was in the car when I bought it last year, so this is probably a sign to flush the system. Are people using any brake fluid in particular for autox?

Here's my best run:

 

[Rexracer]

Hey I missed your first post. I was going to comment that it looks like you are being overly cautious (in July video), but it sounds like you figure that out.

Your August video looks a lot better, but still seems a bit cautious. There are a few points where you are not aggressively back siding the cones in the slaloms, and your not pushing to put the car in a better spot to take the next element. Around the 0:33 mark you are getting behind in the slalom because you you didn't get turned in early enough (back side).

This could all be partially due to not having the right tires, you will be stunned how much better the RE-71 are compared to the Conti's. The A052 maybe a better tire, but at ~double the cost the RE-71 will get you 95% of the way there.

Great progress from event to event!

 

[M-Sport fan]

Yok does not make the A052 in the standard, 'go-to' 205/45-16 size everyone and their great grand auntie uses for H/Street, only a 205/50 and a 225/45.

 

[faust]

There are a few points where you are not aggressively back siding the cones in the slaloms, and your not pushing to put the car in a better spot to take the next element. Around the 0:33 mark you are getting behind in the slalom because you you didn't get turned in early enough (back side).

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't seen many slaloms with the walls of cones before, and did not figure this one out in time. That's a weird part of the track too, it's concrete and doesn't grip the same as the rest. Something to work on in the future for sure.

 

[Rexracer]

Yok does not make the A052 in the standard, 'go-to' 205/45-16 size everyone and their great grand auntie uses for H/Street, only a 205/50 and a 225/45.

I run the 205/50R16 RE-71s because they are cheaper, and I will gladly take a little more gear.

Also the 225/45R16 is the same height as the 205/50R16, so no gear change there, but I want to try the 245/40R17 yoks... those could be interesting.

 

[Rexracer]

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't seen many slaloms with the walls of cones before, and did not figure this one out in time. That's a weird part of the track too, it's concrete and doesn't grip the same as the rest. Something to work on in the future for sure.

Its really interesting how elements can play mind games with you. First time I encountered an eyebrow slalom, I was like "how am i going to avoid all these cones?". Until the guy who designed the course pointed out that only the tip cone matters, the rest of the cones are just decoration, if you drive like the other cones are not there, you wont hit them. Unless you really screw up, but whats the difference between +1 or +5.

Another important thing to realize, as you have, is that while the cones may set the course, your driving the conditions of the track, changes in textures, undulations in the surface, off camber, etc, they all add up to how you run the course.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Also the 225/45R16 is the same height as the 205/50R16, so no gear change there, but I want to try the 245/40R17 yoks... those could be interesting.

HOW could the 245/40s possibly work on a 7" wide wheel though (for H/Street purposes), unless you mean regardless of class, and putting them on an 8" or 9" wheel in STX, or /Prepared?

That is all besides how could they ever fit in the wheel wells without either flares, or 4*+ of negative camber (or BOTH!)?

 

[Rexracer]

HOW could the 245/40s possibly work on a 7" wide wheel though (for H/Street purposes), unless you mean regardless of class, and putting them on an 8" or 9" wheel in STX, or /Prepared?

That is all besides how could they ever fit in the wheel wells without either flares, or 4*+ of negative camber (or BOTH!)?

I cant find the picture, but a local guy is doing it with "minor rubbing". Remember this is for AX only (not rally/not street), so put them on for event, then take them off. I still have my doubts, but thats why I want to TRY it out.

 

[AspenForester]

Thanks for the feedback. I haven't seen many slaloms with the walls of cones before, and did not figure this one out in time. That's a weird part of the track too, it's concrete and doesn't grip the same as the rest. Something to work on in the future for sure.

That's that long stretch that connects the "front" arcs to the back-side neighborhood blocks section, right? (@DCTC)

 

[faust]

That's that long stretch that connects the "front" arcs to the back-side neighborhood blocks section, right? (@DCTC)

yep.

 

[AspenForester]

I brought my Fiesta out to an event a few years ago. I don't really love DCTC as a venue, so I haven't been motivated to do any more. I'm also more involved in the performance rally circles, so I usually don't keep close enough tabs on the autoX schedule.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I brought my Fiesta out to an event a few years ago. I don't really love DCTC as a venue, so I haven't been motivated to do any more. I'm also more involved in the performance rally circles, so I usually don't keep close enough tabs on the autoX schedule.

Were you at Ojibwe last weekend?

 

[rhennin]

I cant find the picture, but a local guy is doing it with "minor rubbing". Remember this is for AX only (not rally/not street), so put them on for event, then take them off. I still have my doubts, but thats why I want to TRY it out.

I can tell you, I tried 245/40/17 RE71Rs on stock wheels and they started rubbing almost immediately. Definitely will rub thru fender liners in several spots. Biggest issue is the overall height of the tire and less the width. So if somehow you could find a smaller overall diameter at 225/235. That’s my best guess.

 

[CSM]

I can tell you, I tried 245/40/17 RE71Rs on stock wheels and they started rubbing almost immediately. Definitely will rub thru fender liners in several spots. Biggest issue is the overall height of the tire and less the width. So if somehow you could find a smaller overall diameter at 225/235. That’s my best guess.

On these cars in 17", anything bigger than a 215/40/17 is gonna require some fender rolling/pulling and heavy camber to work properly without rub. Even some 215/45/17 tires will rub on stock suspension during hard cornering

If I was OP I'd keep his 16x7s and not even bother with 17" wheels. There's a reason all the national HS folks run the smaller size

 

[Rexracer]

here is the picture of the guy running 245/45R16s, this is 24.7" tall. This is an R888 tire, Tirerack says this tire is 24.6", so maybe its a little small for its size. Tread width 8.5", sect. width 9.6".

Owner says he has been running this tire for about a year with minimal rubbing. Stock suspension, typical offset 7" wheels (43mm is my guess).

I can tell you, I tried 245/40/17 RE71Rs on stock wheels and they started rubbing almost immediately. Definitely will rub thru fender liners in several spots. Biggest issue is the overall height of the tire and less the width. So if somehow you could find a smaller overall diameter at 225/235. That’s my best guess.

So once through the fender liners, your good to go!

Racers are always looking for an edge, what is everyone else doing, how can I get an advantage over them...

 

[M-Sport fan]

There also comes a point where you are going backwards in performance by putting a much too wide tire on a way too narrow wheel (as much as I HATE excessive stretch, way too little is even worse for performance ).
More tire pressure will only make up for so much in this case.

One may even run into the scenario where installers (unless you 'know the owner', or DIY) will REFUSE to put a 245 section tire onto an H/Street legal 7" wide wheel (whether 16" or 17" diameter), like I encountered trying to put a 205/50 onto an 8' wide wheel.

That all being said, the only competitive H/Street legal by tread wear tire I've seen in a 245/45-16 (you originally were saying a 245/40-17) is the Yok A052, which many claim needs ridiculous, totally not obtainable in H/Street trim, high negative camber levels to work properly on this car.

 

[CSM]

There also comes a point where you are going backwards in performance by putting a much too wide tire on a way too narrow wheel

This X 1000. Grassroots motorsports has shown this a few times in some of their tests

 

[Rexracer]

There also comes a point where you are going backwards in performance by putting a much too wide tire on a way too narrow wheel (as much as I HATE excessive stretch, way too little is even worse for performance ).
More tire pressure will only make up for so much in this case.

One may even run into the scenario where installers (unless you 'know the owner', or DIY) will REFUSE to put a 245 section tire onto an H/Street legal 7" wide wheel (whether 16" or 17" diameter), like I encountered trying to put a 205/50 onto an 8' wide wheel.

That all being said, the only competitive H/Street legal by tread wear tire I've seen in a 245/45-16 (you originally were saying a 245/40-17) is the Yok A052, which many claim needs ridiculous, totally not obtainable in H/Street trim, high negative camber levels to work properly on this car.

I agree, its a terrible idea, nobody should ever try something unless everyone else has proven it already works.
Mark Skroggs definitely didn't pinch a 275 on an 8.5" rim and win nationals with it, nope definitely a loosing idea.

Definitely don't try this out, and I will see you all at nationals next year... ;-)

 

[M-Sport fan]

Did NOT say that it absolutely could not/would not 'work', just far from ideal.

Yes, one must try everything they can to get even the slightest advantage given the effing SCCA's totally absurd and draconian /Street rules!

Hell, I remember back when Mark Daddio was running a fox body 'stang with 245/50-16 (or maybe they were /45s?) BFG whatevers on the factory 16x7s way back in the day, and winning F/Stock on that setup.

But then, just like the person you mentioned above, he was a NATIONAL CLASS DRIVER as well, and could adapt quickly to even the most 'unlikely' setup imaginable.

BTW; I would LOVE to put a set of A052s in 245/45-16 on my Dekas, or 245/40-17 on my 17x8 1.2s, if for no other reason than for how outright mean/wicked they would look, until they got gouged/cut by the fender lips/liners/bolts/etc. sooo badly that they blew out on the roads, even at factory ride height. LOL