New Injectors, Plus 30% Flow.

[TyphoonFiST]

Thought results would've been posted by now......I guess Ill just keep waiting like I do for Santa Claus!

 

[EnthusiaST]

Have any tuners been working on this? Is this an option still in the US.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Yes....some have.. but none have come baring any fruit.

 

[MagnetiseST]

I've been told that these require an upgraded HPFP / the Pumaspeed camshaft that allows more flow from the HPFP to be functional or worthwhile. Once you do all of that you may as well have gotten aux fuel.

 

[Fusion Works]

Its on my list tomorrow to call about an upgraded DI pump for our cars and not just the other Ford products. The injectors aren't the hold up right now, its the HPFP. If we had an option like the Focus and 3.5 trucks we wouldn't need secrets and lies boxes.

Apparently Cobb has pump scalability, just no real data on who has tuned them yet in other Ford Applications.

 

[MagnetiseST]

Its on my list tomorrow to call about an upgraded DI pump for our cars and not just the other Ford products. The injectors aren't the hold up right now, its the HPFP. If we had an option like the Focus and 3.5 trucks we wouldn't need secrets and lies boxes.

Apparently Cobb has pump scalability, just no real data on who has tuned them yet in other Ford Applications.

ExtremeDI has made one. Its $1600 for the pump alone, then $750 for the injectors.

Until the cost is the same or less than aux, there is no reason NOT to go aux fuel.

 

[Fusion Works]

Except the DI pump will run the engine as designed from Ford without any hacked up wiring and anything hacked into the factory electronics.

 

[Dpro]

Except the DI pump will run the engine as designed from Ford without any hacked up wiring and anything hacked into the factory electronics.

Except aux fuel port injection is that needed that Ford brought it out on the RS engines Current MK8 european FiST’s and current european FoST’s. In a sense they realized the engines benefit from port injection. Hell they are getting upwards of 275HP out of stock turbo MK8’s with tunes because of them coming stock with port and DI injection.

 

[TyphoonFiST]

FML....stupid ferd!

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[MagnetiseST]

Except the DI pump will run the engine as designed from Ford without any hacked up wiring and anything hacked into the factory electronics.

Thats an awful silly reason IMO. But you do you.

 

[ron@whoosh]

I know progress is slow on this for the US market
Tune Plus and now Dizzy are making sure the tuning side is safe and reliable
The are truly 30% "more flow" than stock which means the most we will see from a set is 10 to 12% more power at the wheels from adding them. The new limitation being the HPFP. Without getting into a long conversation about uprated HPFP's which is happening as well but there is testing needed (2 different companies are working on this)
So essentially, if today Tune Plus and Dizzy state we are all set and ready to go, the 30% injectors will take you from 300whp to just over 330whp based on simple math. UK shops have seen 350whp but that's with some really high octane fuel. I believe we can replicate that as well since we made 314whp with our hybrid using some 100 octane fuel in Wesley's car. Add the 10-12% and there's your 350whp. I've also secured a new source for the injectors which means the price is about to plummet so stay tuned. Sorry for lack of updates but there really wasn't much to say up until now

 

[Fusion Works]

Yeah, the "big injectors" really couldn't carry the power level that much higher because of the high pressure pump.

I like the idea of the cleaning aspect of the port injection, obviously it makes sense. Just spoiled from the other cars I build the easy ECU/Injector/pump options. Don't have to go to a separate box that operates remotely from the main ECU.

Once the pump options are sorted then we will probably start to see stupid power on these cars. The Audis with upgraded pumps are making ridiculous power levels now with upgraded pumps.

 

[JDG]

Except the DI pump will run the engine as designed from Ford without any hacked up wiring and anything hacked into the factory electronics.

The problem with moving from the OEM injectors and DI pump is that you fail to factor in all the time Ford spent in R&D getting that spray pattern perfect. The engineering that goes into getting the spray pattern, flow, and pressure on a direct injector optimized for efficiency is incredible. A colleague of mine worked on this project back in the late 90's, nearly 8 years before the first ecoboost engine hit the market. I am skeptical that Bosch and other injector manufacturers are going to put the same amount of R&D into optimizing an injector for our application and I highly doubt that a company like Pumaspeed has the resources to do it. Each injector has to be appropriately sized for a whole host of factors not just displacement. It would not be economical to do this for every single engine.

We should be thankful that we have supplemental port injection as an option in the USA. It is actually a way to modernize our engine since most manufacturers are going to DI with MPI in their new offerings to reduce carbon buildup.

I can understand the hesitance to want to use the split second controller, but once you come to terms with that, the system works quite well for our cars.

 

[theblue]

what makes you think ford put any time at all into spray patterns? I would have thought that both factory and aftermarket companies are using off the shelf from bosch who are the experts. plus it's not really that big of a deal, people decap injectors and throw aux fuel systems on cars all the time and there are not massive losses.

 

[JDG]

what makes you think ford put any time at all into spray patterns? I would have thought that both factory and aftermarket companies are using off the shelf from bosch who are the experts. plus it's not really that big of a deal, people decap injectors and throw aux fuel systems on cars all the time and there are not massive losses.

Did you even read what I posted? I literally work with an engineer that spent 4 years on the preliminary design work and testing of the injectors. Jesus Christ.


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[Ford ST]

What are your concerns over the spray pattern? These engines down the road are going to have aftermarket injectors put in them at some point. Like replacement parts at a auto repair shop type of deal.
I understand your point but what is your concern engine reliability, or is it with engine efficiency and emissions?
Also don't direct injectors get dirty like regular fuel injectors? And if they do get gunked up wouldn't that change the spray pattern anyway. I'm not dissing anybody's time in research and development.

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[Fusion Works]

I don't think we need to change injectors yet, its more the pump that doesn't keep up at the high end of power levels. If you can't maintain the fuel pressure at WOT then its not an injector issue. Ask any Mazdaspeed 3/6 owner. If we can get a pump that can keep up with pressure requirements then you can figure out if the OE injectors are maxed out.
Anyone know what the duty cycle on the injectors does when you max out the pump, HPwise?

I suspect Bosch and Ford worked together closely to figure out many of the finer details of injector design. On DI cars spray pattern, atomization, etc all play heavily into emissions, drivability, and durability on an OE level. Everyone has done a lot of research before implementing DI in their product lines. Yes there is a concern that just "slapping" some injectors into the car from "Autozone". Obviously the testing needs to be done which is why Extreme DI seems to be ahead of the curve on that as they are working directly with Bosch on DI components. Even still the aftermarket performance stuff is so small for Bosch it will be hard to get them all that interested.

 

[EnthusiaST]

Any updates? My quarantine curiosity is much higher than normal

 

[AZSP33D]

Any updates? My quarantine curiosity is much higher than normal

I have the 30% injectors with Whoosh Hybrid, and in summary running E50 is fine whereas stock injectors you have to start expanding injector timing and pushing Lambda past E30 or so... in other words, it can provide for an extra 20% total ethanol no problem, for the Whoosh Turbo perhaps up to E70. Possibly less for the stock turbo though, read my thoughts on that below.

With the E50 tune, raised the content near E85 to test the response, the issue is with pump duty cycle 2500 RPM area especially when at E70 ish... load around 2.3 but up above 3,200RPM no issues when load is closer to 2.2 or less, but tuned around the limitation a little bit to get up to E70. Tuning details: Lambda equivalent AFR (not real AFR but wideband reading so think lambda) ~12.2:1 with E50+ and for reference (didn’t tune past E50 but experimented to find a limitation)... E10 ~11.4:1 AFR injector start timing 340 or less max under highest load so not overly aggressive,
more room there but didn’t push it as I didn’t need to... and within the Whoosh Hybrid recommended 26.5 PSI limit. Increasing boost means increasing fuel means increasing heat means need to add more fuel for cooling so the formula pushes capabilities to the left, but this should help understand my experience. For the stock turbo, you may run out of fuel pump at the 2500-3000 RPM range (HP Pump is cam/RPM driven)

No LP pump pressure drops or issues, needs a bigger turbo to max it out it seems.

No issues running the higher output injectors, starts and runs smoother than the stock Fiesta ST (I have one to compare and help with any behavior I need to improve). I did remap the injector timing maps as they were very rough from the OEM, didn’t test with the 5 gas analyzer but the limitations and optimization of direct port injection Is well documented. Opening up the timing window can help

 

[Jason@dizzytuning]

I have the 30% injectors with Whoosh Hybrid, and in summary running E50 is fine whereas stock injectors you have to start expanding injector timing and pushing Lambda past E30 or so... in other words, it can provide for an extra 20% total ethanol no problem, for the Whoosh Turbo perhaps up to E70. Possibly less for the stock turbo though, read my thoughts on that below.

With the E50 tune, raised the content near E85 to test the response, the issue is with pump duty cycle 2500 RPM area especially when at E70 ish... load around 2.3 but up above 3,200RPM no issues when load is closer to 2.2 or less, but tuned around the limitation a little bit to get up to E70. Tuning details: Lambda equivalent AFR (not real AFR but wideband reading so think lambda) ~12.2:1 with E50+ and for reference (didn’t tune past E50 but experimented to find a limitation)... E10 ~11.4:1 AFR injector start timing 340 or less max under highest load so not overly aggressive,
more room there but didn’t push it as I didn’t need to... and within the Whoosh Hybrid recommended 26.5 PSI limit. Increasing boost means increasing fuel means increasing heat means need to add more fuel for cooling so the formula pushes capabilities to the left, but this should help understand my experience. For the stock turbo, you may run out of fuel pump at the 2500-3000 RPM range (HP Pump is cam/RPM driven)

No LP pump pressure drops or issues, needs a bigger turbo to max it out it seems.

No issues running the higher output injectors, starts and runs smoother than the stock Fiesta ST (I have one to compare and help with any behavior I need to improve). I did remap the injector timing maps as they were very rough from the OEM, didn’t test with the 5 gas analyzer but the limitations and optimization of direct port injection Is well documented. Opening up the timing window can help

What?