Modified engine block options and discussion

[thecman02]

Would there be any market for a billet block? After the problems I have had so far I am getting closer to developing one to be honest...

I'm curious if it will ever come to that. If one is only going for drag racing bragging rights, I've seen people have good luck doing block fill/half fills with products such as HardBlok. Actually I've seen engines for Open Class Time Attack here in the states actually getting away with half fills too. As long as you put in an insanely aggressive oil cooler in the car.

Note: Those time attack cars also had Darton Sleeves as well.

 

[eq5]

From what I understand, the bearings are more of an issue rather than the strength of the block.

Would you have any more information, what are the exact problems with bearings?

Compared to lots of other popular aluminium blocks out there, the 1.6 Ecoboost block material is a low budget aluminium- threads do not hold, distortions in every corner of the block etc. If they only would have used a little higher quality aluminium, that would already be much better.

 

[Rocketst]

Hey guys I said I'd update this when I got the engine. Here's what the block looked like after I uncrated and unwrapped it. Everything was meticulously cleaned and it looked solid. For anyone who forgot my last post it's mountunes new longblock.

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[Rocketst]

Also, since mountune has to order full kits anyways, they included the rest of the gaskets I need to install everything else. You just have to transfer everything it doesn't come with like sensors and everything. It also came with assembly lube in it so that's gonna come in handy for cranking it the first time.

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[TyphoonFiST]

Always need good lube!

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[Thatwuzeasy]

Hey guys I said I'd update this when I got the engine. Here's what the block looked like after I uncrated and unwrapped it. Everything was meticulously cleaned and it looked solid. For anyone who forgot my last post it's mountunes new longblock.

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That's really pretty!

 

[JDG]

What did that engine run you if you don't mind me asking..?

 

[slopoke]

What did that engine run you if you don't mind me asking..?

$7982.00 is whats listed on Mountunes website.

https://www.mountuneusa.com/mountune-High-Performance-1-6L-Long-Block-p/6064-lb-160s2.htm

 

[JDG]

$7982.00 is whats listed on Mountunes website.

https://www.mountuneusa.com/mountune-High-Performance-1-6L-Long-Block-p/6064-lb-160s2.htm

Understood, curious what he paid since there are a lot of deals going on through Mountune and I bet they were trying to get a few sold for publicity.


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[Dcs_grey_shoe09]

I'm following as I wanna see the limits of these blocks.

 

[Rocketst]

Understood, curious what he paid since there are a lot of deals going on through Mountune and I bet they were trying to get a few sold for publicity.


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I paid $7500 for it because I bought all piec seperate. Since I'm military I would have gotten a 750 dollar discount which is why they just agreed to give me the first one they made instead of giving me the discount. Technically I saved about a grand because their MSRP is 8700 I believe.

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[Fusion Works]

Would you have any more information, what are the exact problems with bearings?

Compared to lots of other popular aluminium blocks out there, the 1.6 Ecoboost block material is a low budget aluminium- threads do not hold, distortions in every corner of the block etc. If they only would have used a little higher quality aluminium, that would already be much better.

What testing have you done that shows these blocks are made of shitty material? What material is the block made of specifically? I haven't had any thread problems yet and don't hear stories of tons of blocks failing in these cars.

Just wondering why you call these block inferior and what you consider "higher quality" blocks out there.

Keep in mind the intended goals of most Fiesta drivers.

 

[eq5]

What testing have you done that shows these blocks are made of shitty material? What material is the block made of specifically? I haven't had any thread problems yet and don't hear stories of tons of blocks failing in these cars.

Just wondering why you call these block inferior and what you consider "higher quality" blocks out there.

Keep in mind the intended goals of most Fiesta drivers.

1. Machinists, who work with blocks daily. Sleeving a block means removing material- during that process, guys who have experience machining different grades of metal get a good idea of the quality by the way the material behaves during the process.
2. For higher power levels we want higher clamping forces for head and main cradle. We use ARP style bolt+nut combination for that. As soon as sleeving and proper measuring is necessary, you need to tighten them a number of times. The original thread in the block starts to stretch due to extra force pulling it out and due to poor quality aluminium introduced for the block.
3. Distortion in the main crandle. Though I admit, this is also known to happen on other blocks. As you tighten the head with ARP bolts, the mains cradle is also affected. You may choose your color coded main bearings during assembly according to Ford's service manual, but as soon as you clamp down the head, the clearances will change- usual rule of thumb is that 1st and 5th will get tighter. If you are lucky, you will still have enough clearance to get away with this. If not, you will destroy the bearings/crank sooner or later and will start a painful process of diagnosing the reason. To do it correctly, main line boring/honing is necessary here.
4. Distortions in the cylinders. Same story, cylinders distort, when we clamp down the head. Different Ecoboost blocks have different results, but overall behaviour is still the same- 1st and 4th cylinder turn oval when clamping down the head. I have done testing and measuring only with dry ductile sleeves, but ductile is stronger and should even distort less than original. Again, if you are lucky, you will get away with this. What is more likely though, you will develop blow-by from the rings and this will develop into a long time problem. Going by the numbers, I measured 1,5 - 2 thou ovalness in 1st and 4th, this was enough to develop poor ring seal and develop blow-by.

Both last issues should be addressed by the machinist using correct procedures with torque plate. I will soon make an additional post to my build thread and cover this more thourougly.

As for which blocks to compare to- Subaru, Mitsubishi(4B11) and Honda for example. Blocks that engine machinists/builders work on daily and can give a good comparison against.

 

[Fusion Works]

Since I haven't measured a 1.6 Ford, I'll make my notes based on the Honda B series which I have measured.

The blocks are 90% the same. There is a fairly limited number of casting alloys the OEs use for aluminum blocks. Usually this is some variant of A356. It will be have some variation from manufacture to manufacture. Heat treat will help tremendously, how the block behaves under heavy load conditions. The nice thing with the Ecoboost line, they were designed from the factory with boost in mind and with a warranty. So they will have built them much stronger than in the past and they are definitely not built like a Honda NA B, D, H, etc.

The cylinders themselves will be a generic grey cast iron, however it is possible Ford chose ductile iron sleeves for the Ecoboost series. They are however free standing like the Honda B-series. So at some point detonation and cylinder pressures will flex them. An intermediate step before sleeves would be posts to the exterior surface of the block. You will tie the sleeve into the outside of the block at several points and stop the cylinder from flexing. Thus keeping the head gasket in good shape. Once you go past that point (no idea what that is on the Ecoboost because it hasn't really been done yet) a Darton type sleeve will be necessary. Lets face it, we aren't going to be making 1000hp on these blocks.

On a Honda B series if you use ARP main studs and torque to their required torque of 80lbft the main bores will distort. Once you loosen the studs they will relax. Tighten them again and they move in a different direction. There is an unrepeatable pattern to which the block moves as you torque those studs. The threads don't pull out. Head stud torque doesn't seem to change main bore shape in a meaningful fashion.

When honing any block for use with head studs requiring more clamping force than stock, a deck plate and careful attention to bore distortion and cylinder head distortion is required. If you torque a B-series head to the 80lbft that ARP recommends for their studs you will get distortion in the valve seats. You won't hurt the threads on the block. This is the reason you use studs so you don't load the threads in a multiple directions.

There is no reason with ductile iron sleeves you can't reach 600+, but expect other possible problems areas to show up. At this point in development of the 1.6 Ecoboost motor, the limits of the stock block haven't been reached. If you want stupid power, sleeve, don't over torque the mains, deck plate it and let her rip. I don't think we are at the point where you need to be considering alternative blocks even if you could get a manufacture to make them at a reasonable price.

 

[eq5]

Thats good info, pretty much answers the question that 1.6 Ecoboost block material is inferior to Honda B-series where threads are concerned. Starting with an unopened block I could tighten the head studs @70 lbft and mains @55 lbft for about 3-4 times before threads start to pull out.

When we start to compare exact design of both blocks, there could be some significant differences in the amount of material used. Ecoboost mains distort up to 2 thou when head studs are torqued.

Can I reduce those tightening torque numbers for head and mains when aiming for 380 lbft of torque from the engine? Currently I install Helicoil threads for both to hold it.

 

[Fusion Works]

I wouldn't have helicoiled any threads. If you are concerned going to a Threadsert is a much better plan. Have no idea if there is enough material to support that though.

What is the factory torque spec on the head and mains? Are you using bolts or studs?

 

[thecman02]

I need to keep an eye open in my local junk yards for wrecked fists. I'd love to have an engine in front of me to tinker with my machinists/friends.

EQ5, is there enough material in the block to go up in stud size? It also sounds like their may be a market for aftermarket girdle or crandle as you say.

Hey guys I said I'd update this when I got the engine. Here's what the block looked like after I uncrated and unwrapped it. Everything was meticulously cleaned and it looked solid. For anyone who forgot my last post it's mountunes new longblock.

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What camshafts did you go with?

 

[eq5]

I wouldn't have helicoiled any threads. If you are concerned going to a Threadsert is a much better plan. Have no idea if there is enough material to support that though.

What is the factory torque spec on the head and mains? Are you using bolts or studs?

Helicoils have held well so far, also there is not enough sidewall for Sert installation on mains.

I am using studs. Factory uses torque-to-yield bolts that you can only use once, finishing up with the angle gauge. Unfortunately I do not have a live-measure torque-wrench to find out the exact number of original torque-to-yield bolts.

thecman02: I would think original girdle will be fine as long as we do not go for billet crank. I do not have that much experience yet as to how much flex there will be with original crank and how it will affect the life of bearings, but I know there is a billet crank available on the market- I guess the manufacturer of that crank could tell us what was the reason for a creating a billet version.

 

[Rocketst]

I need to keep an eye open in my local junk yards for wrecked fists. I'd love to have an engine in front of me to tinker with my machinists/friends.

EQ5, is there enough material in the block to go up in stud size? It also sounds like their may be a market for aftermarket girdle or crandle as you say.



What camshafts did you go with?

Piper stage 2 cams. Stage 3 and 4 require more extensive shaving of the inside of the head for clearance. It's something I'd consider changing out at a later date to probably a stage 4 but for now I just wanted a bigger than stock cam.

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[antarctica24]

Piper stage 2 cams. Stage 3 and 4 require more extensive shaving of the inside of the head for clearance. It's something I'd consider changing out at a later date to probably a stage 4 but for now I just wanted a bigger than stock cam.

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How is your progress? Have you started it up yet?