brake system re-plumbing

[alexinvancouver]

I'm building 2015 Fiesta ST rally car. it's currently stripped completely.
fuel line brake lines will be inside of the vehicle of course.
brake lines will be re-plumbed using a single line to rear with adjustable brake bias and hydraulic e-brake in-between.
My previous build was Mini Cooper S which uses ABS sensors for running that car
and i cut all the wires and got rid of ABS unit completely without knowing it
had to solder them together and put the module back after i found out lol.
Mini runs fine after tuning and such and removing the pump but keeping ABS module
didn't affect braking performance at all
now: i built a few stage rally cars and never had any issues with brakes but wondering if any one had re-plumbed
brake system in their new generation Fiesta with all the fancy crap speed sensors and ABS related?
Thanks

 

[M-Sport fan]

Someone on here has mentioned in the past that it is all but impossible to install a bias controller valve on the factory FiST due to the deep encryption of the ASC/ABS/TC algorithms/programs, etc. in whichever on board computer(s) controls those systems.

IF you are doing a FULL standalone ECM setup, and doing away with any other factory computers, it should not be a problem.
But IF you want to retain any of the factory 'brains', you will have to find a way to re-write out those nanny programs.

I would suggest contacting Team O'Neil Motorsports in New Hampshire for advice, since they are the most prolific rally prep shop as concerns our cars in (probably) all of North America.

(They are even supporting an M-Sport prepped, R5 Fiesta for the upcoming season for Dave Wallingford, which I hope to see, and cheer for, on the stages at STPR, and possibly New England Forest Rally in 2018. )

 

[alexinvancouver]

Someone on here has mentioned in the past that it is all but impossible to install a bias controller valve on the factory FiST due to the deep encryption of the ASC/ABS/TC algorithms/programs, etc. in whichever on board computer(s) controls those systems.

IF you are doing a FULL standalone ECM setup, and doing away with any other factory computers, it should not be a problem.
But IF you want to retain any of the factory 'brains', you will have to find a way to re-write out those nanny programs.

I would suggest contacting Team O'Neil Motorsports in New Hampshire for advice, since they are the most prolific rally prep shop as concerns our cars in (probably) all of North America.

(They are even supporting an M-Sport prepped, R5 Fiesta for the upcoming season for Dave Wallingford, which I hope to see, and cheer for, on the stages at STPR, and possibly New England Forest Rally in 2018. )

there were two Fiestas just last weekend at PFR rally here and they both run stand-alones
and one of them was Dave's. he took first in 2WD when the other Fiesta steering failed.
and yes, stand alone is the option i'm considering too but it all comes down to cost
for now cheaper option is Cobb tuning but i'm not sure it can disable all the unwanted crap.
PS. Team O'Nei guys are great sports but they never returned my calls though i left two messages
and took forever to reply e-mails when i needed suspension for it so by the time they replied i already got it from a different supplier.
also I contacted M-Sport in regards of BR22160016A R1 ECU RE-PROGRAMME 1 £ 350.00 (yes i know it's for R! but needed some info)
but though it's on the price list they said they don't provide it?
thanks

 

[M-Sport fan]

Did you ask Dave, or the other FiST running for any suggestions on how to do this while retaining the factory ECM/BCM, etc.??
I am wondering if it can even be done with an official Ford service device or not. [MENTION=1313]BRGT350[/MENTION]?

I'd like to have seen Dave's R2 running down the stages! (Jelly!)

 

[alexinvancouver]

those guys don't do nothing themselves and wouldn't be able to change oil even under a gun point.
they have a crew of mechanics!...rich bastards! LOL
....which reminds me i have to buy a lottery ticket....
...again LOL

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^Yup, same here, I must start playing that again, as it is the only gambling/gaming I've ever done, and at least the profits go towards good causes (HOPEFULLY!) instead of into Tony Soprano's (or Donald Scump's) pocket. LOL

 

[scotman]

Alex. Dont just tear shit apart. Those R5 cars bear little resemblance to wbat we are driving. I wish i could offer you advice or a direction to go. But, the stability and traction controls in a production fiesta ST and whats designed into a professionally engineered and built race car bear little resemblance to each other. The old tricks of cut and gut builds aint gonna work anymore.

 

[alexinvancouver]

Alex. Dont just tear shit apart. Those R5 cars bear little resemblance to wbat we are driving. I wish i could offer you advice or a direction to go. But, the stability and traction controls in a production fiesta ST and whats designed into a professionally engineered and built race car bear little resemblance to each other. The old tricks of cut and gut builds aint gonna work anymore.

R5 has nothing to do with because mine will be somewhat close to R2 it but anyway, standalone it is =o)

 

[BRGT350]

From what I recall, the TON Fiesta rally cars did not run ABS or vacuum assisted brakes. I think most of the school cars were also changed over to manual brakes without ABS since left foot braking while on the throttle depletes the vacuum available for braking assist. I know the Fiesta school cars did not have ABS active anymore, or stability/traction control. The dash was a Christmas tree of warning lights.

 

[alexinvancouver]

i have a a Christmas tree of warning lights on my current stage rally car but i just covered them with adhesive tape lol
also i'm going to re-plumb the system to bypass the ABS anyway and see what happens
surely ABS will try to act but since there will be no tubes connected to it won't interfere
will try to custom tune the ECU for 32 mm restrictor with Cobb first and wondering if it would allow to eliminate ABS part
also had this idea last night to position all the sensors in one wheel so the car brain will think they all do rotate or brake simultaneously

 

[BRGT350]

Can't you just bypass and remove the ABS pump and remove the wheel speed sensors? You don't want to provide the ESC/TC system with wheel speed data since that is what it uses to control the car. Removing the wheel speed sensors will put the ABS and ESC/TC system into fault. During the original Fiesta Movement (which the cars now live at TON), some people disconnected the wheel speed sensors in order to disable the TC and ESC systems. Some regular Fiesta owners install a switch on the speed sensor, at least one of them, to kill the sensor so the ESC/TC system can be turned off. On early Fiestas, the ESC/TC system could not be turned off and the car would get stuck. Later models gave you an option in the menu to turn off the TC. Ford may have had an ABS removal kit that was used on the B-Spec road racers, but I don't remember the details.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Ford may have had an ABS removal kit that was used on the B-Spec road racers, but I don't remember the details.

Some on here who have investigated this option have said that it was not a possibility for the ST (forgot the reason WHY), even if it were still available, which they claimed it was not.

 

[M-Sport fan]

will try to custom tune the ECU for 32 mm restrictor with Cobb first

CARS requires an intake inlet restrictor for your class, or is it only for the boosted cars??

 

[jeffreylyon]

If you're going to run adjustable brake bias, a second rear master, and a single line to the rear I wouldn't think that there's any chance in hell that you'll be able to coax TV and ABS to work. As long as there isn't some magic embedded in ECU that affects vacuum assist then just plumb old school style, MC -> SC. I do wonder if the MC is a traditional dual piston redundant.

 

[alexinvancouver]

ABS pump will definitely be removed but module itself will stay connected.
on my previous car i removed everything and cut all the wires and then had to solder everything back
because the damn thing runs on speed sensors which i found out the hard way.
the good thing i didn't put wires into garbage and they were color coded.
without them sensors ECU will think car is sitting still and the owner must be crazy just revving it up for no reason lol
and surely will give me some crap by adjusting fuel/ignition because it will think there's no actual load.
and yes, restrictors required bor turbo or supercharged cars. 32 or 34 mm depending on class and such.

 

[alexinvancouver]

Came across my own tread while looking for camber shims. go figure lol
decided to update while here anyway.
car run a few rallies. rolled once and doing body work involving roof replacement on it right now =o)
anyway,
ABS pump is still there and i never cut any wires.
Pump itself is completely bypassed with lines running directly to the calipers front/rear separately,
rear via brake bias and hydraulic e-brake
and i run stock ECU with custom tune.
was tuned @Rocket Rally by Pat Richard, Canadian and North American rally champion back in 2000th
and he did a terrific job pushing 240 lb of torque to the wheels with 32 mm turbo restrictor.
interestingly when we put it on dyno (4x4) engine refused to rev up because rear wheels were not moving
but after disconnecting one of the rear speed sensors were able to run it the way it should.
started looking for rear camber shims because rear beam is surely bent and can't find anything made out of metal.
plastic crap surely won't be able to withstand the abuse =o(
PS. have yet to see a Fiesta rally car with good camber
oh well, maybe only before the first stage of the very first rally lol

 

[jeffreylyon]

Here ya go: https://www.dna-racing.it/en/ford-f...40-dna-racing-negative-camber-plates-kit.html

 

[alexinvancouver]

i have about 2 degrees already and toe is screwed as well
so ideally it'd be camber/toe plate which changes everything (something like ez-shims) but they're all made of plastic.
....sent an email to Eibach asking what are theirs made of and waiting for reply

 

[M-Sport fan]

What did you end up using for suspension?
Did you go all-out and get the $8K+ R2 Reiger gravel setup, or settle on something else??

I am now hearing (from O.D.D. Racing in Colorado, the new M-Sport dealer in the U.S., now that TON is out of the game) that one MUST replace the ST front uprights/knuckles in order to use the M-Sport/Bilstein R1/R2 'National' level suspension kit, making me think twice about that setup.

 

[jeffreylyon]

replace the ST front uprights/knuckles in order to use the M-Sport/Bilstein R1/R2 'National' level suspension kit, making me think twice about that setup.

Wait..., uprated uprights? Do you have a link so that I can drool?