Custom Uprights

[Kazmon]

Been doing a lot of research lately on M-Sport and the cars they create, and read that they machine their own uprights. My question now is, does anyone state-side fabricate similar or will I have to R&D my own? "Uprights" is a European term, translated to NA is the Spindle/Hub knuckle.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Did you inquire just how much they get for them (either directly, or from Team O'Neil, since the latter can sometimes save you a little of that stupidly exorbitant overseas shipping ridiculousness )?

ALL of their R2 and up builds also get the 5 lug hubs as well, as ONLY the R1 build retains the 4x108 setup.

I am still trying to find out IF they will even sell a non-competitor, someone who is NOT an R5 owner, the vented carbon/kevlar hood from the R5s, for any price, and more importantly IF that will even fit on a USDM/North American market FiST.
Anyone know for sure IF they use a different hood/'bonnet' than ours in England/Europe/R.O.W.??
(M-Sport won't answer the emails, and Team O'Neil will not get back to me on this.)

 

[jeffreylyon]

My guess is that the uprated uprights are also sitting on uprated LCA's with larger ball joints and different geometry. What are you trying to solve with different uprights?

 

[DAPR]

My guess is that the uprated uprights are also sitting on uprated LCA's with larger ball joints and different geometry. What are you trying to solve with different uprights?

This.

 

[Kazmon]

My guess is that the uprated uprights are also sitting on uprated LCA's with larger ball joints and different geometry. What are you trying to solve with different uprights?

I'm trying to use their geometry on my fiesta. The goal is uprated/custom control arms, suspension geometry, beefy things. Road warrior.

 

[jeffreylyon]

I'm trying to use their geometry on my fiesta. The goal is uprated/custom control arms, suspension geometry, beefy things. Road warrior.

I suspect that you be pretty unhappy with rally car geometry and bushing on a street car!

 

[Kazmon]

I suspect that you be pretty unhappy with rally car geometry and bushing on a street car!

Everything can be modified to one's preference. For now, I'm just looking at the general specs for this to happen.

 

[jeffreylyon]

Everything can be modified to one's preference. For now, I'm just looking at the general specs for this to happen.

Yep - good point. To reproduce a full R5 M-Sport car you're probably looking at least swapping out the K-member/subframe and everything attached. [MENTION=4438]M-Sport fan[/MENTION], are the > R1 cars using production chassis or are they silhouette cars?

I've wondered about weight savings with a K-member swap as the Fox body guys do (for cheap!).

 

[jeffreylyon]

Here's the R2 kit:

I see 5 lug hubs and brake caliper adapters but no uprights.

Here's a real R5 for sale: https://www.motorsportauctions.com/category/323/World-Rally-Cars/listings/36898/R5-Fiesta-Evo.html
Take a look at the pix - the rear suspension looks like a long-travel strut setup and the lower mount of the front struts are way different than the FiST's.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Yep - good point. To reproduce a full R5 M-Sport car you're probably looking at least swapping out the K-member/subframe and everything attached. [MENTION=4438]M-Sport fan[/MENTION], are the > R1 cars using production chassis or are they silhouette cars?

ALL of the world class rally cars, of ALL classes, MUST BE based on production unibody cars, NO; tubular 'space frames', carbon/kevlar 'monocoques', or the like.
(Even the World Rallycross cars, except for the "Lites" class (which ARE mid-engined, tubular space framed, spec cars with 'silhouette' Fiesta ST bodies on them), are based on production unibodies.)

Of course, they are FULLY seam welded, and have ALL of the unneeded brackets/accessories removed, and have VERY strong certified FULLY tied into the unibody, and triangulated cages in them (which also help to stiffen up the unibody to an exponential degree!).

The R1 class cars are basically showroom stock rally cars, with VERY limited mods allowed to keep costs down (NO; sequential gearboxes, carbon/kevlar body parts, engine mods, etc.), but multi-adjustable coil over/ remote reservoir suspension IS allowed, if one wants to. and can afford to 'swing' for that, and then just the required safety equipment (cage, seats, harnesses, extinguisher systems, etc.) to compete.

The R2 cars get many more allowed mods (sequentials, engine mods, etc., like the pic, but now they are using the 3 cylinder, 1.0 EcoBoost 'SFE' based Fiesta for that class instead of the pictured 1.6 NA engined car), and all of the safety equipment needed.

The R5 cars get MUCH more (obviously, since an AWD Fiesta does not exist in production), and can use carbon/kevlar body work, extensive engine/turbo mods are allowed, but there IS a required inlet restrictor on the turbo, so tuning is tricky.
They can also slightly change the suspension 'pickup points', and (I believe, as they ARE allowed this mod in the WRC class ) they can 'tilt' the whole engine back a given amount if they wish (I think it is 10 or 15 degrees?).

The WRC class is like R5 on STEROIDS, given the wild 'time attack'/DTM style aero packages they are allowed to run now, and I believe that ONLY the roof panel (as far as actual bodywork goes) has to be steel, the rest can be carbon fiber/kevlar/composite materials.
Active/electronic center diffs are now allowed once again, after having been banned many years ago in an effort to save coin for the teams.
They also must run an inlet restrictor, but they were reduced in size for the latest rules spec in '17, so they are now making an 'official' ("gentleman's agreement" LOL!) ~380 (AW?)HP, but you can bet that most are north of that figure, even with the restrictor in place, since they are NOT required to have the car dynoed to prove their lower power levels during the season.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I suspect that you be pretty unhappy with rally car geometry and bushing on a street car!

True, but it is not impossible to deal with (IF one can handle A LOT of discomfort/NVH, and does not require a cushy Town car like ride), since the rally crews must sometimes drive LONG 'transit' sections, on OPEN public roads, while obeying ALL traffic laws in order to get to the start of the next competitive special stage location.

Also, if it is set up for TARMAC rallies, it WILL handle very well on the street (or most race courses for that matter), and usually still have enough suspension travel to handle pretty bad roads (it is VERY rare for them to be even close to 'slammed', since most of the Brit/Euro tarmac rallies are NOT held on pool table smooth roads!).

 

[DAPR]

Unless you plan on a fully prepared rally car you shouldn't need custom made parts. Are you planning on doing full rod/ball linked set up. What about solid mounts.

You're gonna rattle your teeth out driving to and from the store.

Just use crash bolts for some extra camber and save your money?

 

[BRGT350]

rally car suspensions aren't meant for the street. The ST is already more capable in stock form that the operator behind the wheel. Yes, I realize that I will once again get flamed and called an elitist a-hole who should never conclude that every ST owner isn't able to drive better than Colin McRae, but it is true. The Fiesta ST is very well designed from the factory to be the best compromise between comfort, handling, cost, and durability. A rally car suspension throws cost and comfort out the window for handling and durability. To try and build a rally car that is a street car is a terrible way to go. There is too much compromise. A far better option, if you want to build a rally Fiesta is to go buy a used Fiesta R1 or R2 from MSport or TON. There is so much done to the cars to make them work that trying to duplicate the process on your own won't work. The cars are designed to do one thing and that is to compete and win at stage rally. They are very expensive and highly specialized. Bolting on a few MSport suspension parts on to a street car isn't going to make it a rally car. Even a tarmac setup on the street is way too much. The suspension is too stiff and there isn't any bushing compliance, so you will be subjected to a great deal of impact forces. Did you realize that the engine tuning on the rally cars is different so that the knock sensors can react to actual engine knock rather that inputs from the suspension? That gives you an idea of the types of impacts the chassis is subjected to. For durability to handle the increase load and impact, everything is seam welded and tied together with a roll cage.

As I have said a million times and nobody wants to hear it, you would be better off keeping the car close to stock and invest money into driver education. Take the full week competition driving course from TON. Go to Bondurant and learn how to drive on paved surfaces. Be able to master car control. After that, pick up a rule book and decide what class and what series you want to run. Buy a used car that is in the class you want to run. That is how you get into this. A good friend of mine started at Bondurant (at their drift school actually) then went to TON and then bought a rally car and then started to compete. It takes years and solid dedication to do it. Car control is where it starts. I have been down the road of trying to mask poor car control with parts and ended up way off base. Start with the basics and go from there.

 

[Kazmon]

rally car suspensions aren't meant for the street. The ST is already more capable in stock form that the operator behind the wheel. Yes, I realize that I will once again get flamed and called an elitist a-hole who should never conclude that every ST owner isn't able to drive better than Colin McRae, but it is true. The Fiesta ST is very well designed from the factory to be the best compromise between comfort, handling, cost, and durability. A rally car suspension throws cost and comfort out the window for handling and durability. To try and build a rally car that is a street car is a terrible way to go. There is too much compromise. A far better option, if you want to build a rally Fiesta is to go buy a used Fiesta R1 or R2 from MSport or TON. There is so much done to the cars to make them work that trying to duplicate the process on your own won't work. The cars are designed to do one thing and that is to compete and win at stage rally. They are very expensive and highly specialized. Bolting on a few MSport suspension parts on to a street car isn't going to make it a rally car. Even a tarmac setup on the street is way too much. The suspension is too stiff and there isn't any bushing compliance, so you will be subjected to a great deal of impact forces. Did you realize that the engine tuning on the rally cars is different so that the knock sensors can react to actual engine knock rather that inputs from the suspension? That gives you an idea of the types of impacts the chassis is subjected to. For durability to handle the increase load and impact, everything is seam welded and tied together with a roll cage.

As I have said a million times and nobody wants to hear it, you would be better off keeping the car close to stock and invest money into driver education. Take the full week competition driving course from TON. Go to Bondurant and learn how to drive on paved surfaces. Be able to master car control. After that, pick up a rule book and decide what class and what series you want to run. Buy a used car that is in the class you want to run. That is how you get into this. A good friend of mine started at Bondurant (at their drift school actually) then went to TON and then bought a rally car and then started to compete. It takes years and solid dedication to do it. Car control is where it starts. I have been down the road of trying to mask poor car control with parts and ended up way off base. Start with the basics and go from there.

I do wish to attend TON, haven't heard of Bondurant. I do appreciate all the information being given to me- This is shit I want to hear. The most knowledge I can consume, the more I can fully realize the vision of what I want. I'm building my ST not to take it to WRC, but to just push the envelope. I dont plan to street it forever, however I do plan on owning it forever. I want this perfectly capable street car to evolve (10+ years) in to my own hoon wagon for the rolling/winding streets and trails, wherever I end up living. WRC is the goal of mine, but not with *this* FiST.

 

[BRGT350]

The Bondurant School of High Performance Driving is one of the premier driving schools in the country. It is located in Phoenix. Trust me, the Fiesta ST as it is today can be pushed way beyond your abilities as a driver. There used to be a video from the Ford test track in Belgium in which the suspension engineer for the ST is driving the car in ways I have never seen a FWD car be driven. Lots of oversteer and slides. It was just insane to see how he could drive a stock ST. The TON school, even the 2-day school is a great way to see if you have what it takes to really drive a car in low grip conditions. The skills you learn there can be applied on the street. I use many of the lessons when driving in the winter. I rode in the co-driver seat of a 130hp Fiesta rally car and was blown away how fast it was in the hands of a professional driver. I spent time with a professional driving instructor in a Fiesta ST during product orientation and he was scary fast in the car. I was one of the fastest drivers besides the instructor and a rally driver and I still couldn't keep up with the professional when he turned it up. It always comes down the driver, not the sum of the parts. I wish people would have given me this advice 20 years ago when I was spending large sums of money on parts instead of driver education. I could have been vastly faster in the end.

 

[Kazmon]

I'd love to attend all of these programs, the only difficulty is timing. Soon I'll be in/out of the country for 4+ years. I hope it's understood that I don't believe money/parts=skill.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Did you realize that the engine tuning on the rally cars is different so that the knock sensors can react to actual engine knock rather that inputs from the suspension? That gives you an idea of the types of impacts the chassis is subjected to.

Just in case anyone questions the validity of the above, I have EXPERIENCED IT!!

On my last car (2000 Z28), about in the middle of my 16+ years of ownership, I installed a set of LGM G2 Bilstein/Hyperco coil overs at all four corners (yes, even the back ones on the solid axle were true coil overs!).
These had unlined, metal to metal, spherical bearing mounting points top and bottom, and they knocked/banged soooo loudly on the rough roads in Joyzee that they DID in fact set off the two knock sensors in the LS1's lifter valley cover, and actually PULLED timing!!

I then switched to a Koni/Ground Control coil over type conversion, using the Koni yellow double adjustables I had on the car from almost the beginning (with regular factory sized springs at that time), and the problem was GONE! (The Konis had hard durometer rubber bushings on the bottom mounts.)

I know that at times I am ridiculous for desiring a set of actual Reiger coil overs for this car (BESIDES the co$$T involved), when what I really want is just something that will handle the occasional UNseen HARD impact (due to dust/sun blinding) with a 'baby's head' BIG rock embedded into the gravel stage road's surface, while working rallies, without sending the damper's piston rod through the hood (and still being decent handling on the street).

I know you will say that the factory suspension is PERFECT for this purpose, and exactly what I want and need, but I cannot help thinking that there is something at least a little better.
(Are the R1 Bilsteins, in fact, valved WAY WAY out of range for ANY street use, or pavement use for that matter, by changing out springs to a different length at all, despite using the much softer factory top mounts and non-spherical bottom mounts?? )

 

[M-Sport fan]

I'd love to attend all of these programs, the only difficulty is timing. Soon I'll be in/out of the country for 4+ years. I hope it's understood that I don't believe money/parts=skill.

The full Team O'Neil School experience is not exactly cheap either, but YES, still well under the cost of a Reiger suspension for these cars (and A LOT of the other requisite rally car parts)!

 

[captainmorbid]

I’m slowly saving for Dirtfish in WA...

Though, I think that a regular Fiesta will be my weapon of choice..

The ONLY problem I had with the OEM suspension was the pogo action. On loose surfaces with undulating humps, I nearly had to pack spare undergarments...

Plus, I do like minimizing wheel gap for looks.

Also, modern water based automotive paint really chips easy...

Aaaaand, BRGT offers sage advice.


Sent from my iPhone using Glue and macaroni

 

[M-Sport fan]

I’m slowly saving for Dirtfish in WA...

I never looked at their fees, in comparison to Timo's school. What do they get for a 2/4/5 day course, and is it dependent on which cars you want to drive there, like O'Neil's??

The ONLY problem I had with the OEM suspension was the pogo action. On loose surfaces with undulating humps, I nearly had to pack spare undergarments...

I did not notice this AT ALL while working the stages at NEFR (but I was using 195/60-15 XL rated, winter tires).

I WAS worried about blowing out a factory damper, bottoming out on the high ROUGH/ROCKY center ridges (but did have a Skid Plate Guy, bash plate in case this happened to the front sump/transaxle area of the car), or having a MAJOR impact send the factory damper's piston rod right through the hood (like what happened to the ONE Limited 2 Wheel Drive class ST competing in the event, and he was using the supposedly bombproof, R1 M-Spot/Bilstein 'motorsport spec' piston sized coil over (but fixed/no adjustment for compression/rebound, dampers).

Aaaaand, BRGT offers sage advice.

ABSOLUTELY, as usual!