Cat delete, and intercooler change

[MeeLee]

Hello all,

Keeping the ST mostly stock,

I want to know how much HP I'd gain from a CAT delete (either catless or a high-flow cat).
And if the car would run lean this way, or run into any kind of issues?

And I'd like to know if a larger intercooler would make any difference to a stock ST, or should I just leave the stock intercooler in place?

 

[THE COOP]

Hello MeeLee, I can tell you as a relatively new member and I've read every thread on this subject so I can't tell you for sure about the down down pipe but pretty much the ST comes with a good intake and exhaust you you wont gain much or no HP/TORQ with these mods so buy a Cobb AP put in a stage 1 OTS tune and a panel air filter and you have more torq with just those mods.

I would also suggest a RMM with any mods also. This is where my car is at now, next for me will be a larger FMIC "intercooler" and a custom tune. Hope this helps. COOP

 

[FiSTicuffs]

Cat delete won't get you anywhere unless youre going for stage three tune or big turbo. In order to do this, you will require a bigger intercooler. Heat soak is devastating to these engines. Woosh has some cost effective catted and catless pipes as well as intercoolers available that I have heard great things about. You could pick up both for the cost of a Cobb or Mountune intercooler.

 

[Quisp]

Mishimoto tested a high flow cat and got nothing on stock turbo. It's a lot of work and possibly heartbreak with possibilities of broken seized bolts. Intercooler by all means yes.

 

[A7xogg]

You probably get a different spool from a DP, which could make a good difference or not a good difference. Though I do like having my stock dp(emissions +2 year old) and knowing it's not a restriction(400 cell I think) is quite nice

 

[MeeLee]

Thanks guys!
So your recommendation is to just swap out the intercooler.
Does $500 for the IC with a $250 install estimate sound like a good deal?

And what hp will I gain on average?

 

[TyphoonFiST]

Thanks guys!
So your recommendation is to just swap out the intercooler.
Does $500 for the IC with a $250 install estimate sound like a good deal?

And what hp will I gain on average?

Its not so much a huge HP gain but a Consistent charge air temp and less heat soak from the turbo and on the intercooler itself with a Intercooler change. The DP may free up some HP and TQ... but again your limited by the size of the stock Turbo for a huge gain unlike a Hybrid and Big Turbo such as Garrett or Borg/warner. What type of intercooler is $500? A vendor had a very nice intercooler up for sale for $280 including shipping this past week! PWnallperformance....god man was it a steal! Don't get me Wrong...Everything is just as good or better than stock/OE. Make a plan...Write it down and stick to it!

 

[MeeLee]

I could get a mountune Intercooler for $500, but there are plenty of options if I want to go cheaper.
Not sure if the price is worth the gains. But once my stock intercooler is in need of replacement, I might as well get a good one.

 

[Dpro]

I could get a mountune Intercooler for $500, but there are plenty of options if I want to go cheaper.
Not sure if the price is worth the gains. But once my stock intercooler is in need of replacement, I might as well get a good one.

My opinion on the Mountune intercooler is if you are not planning on going bigger Turbo its not a bad idea except if you do buy it get it in a package.


Mountune has a VB3 package that gives you their RMM, a Cobb AP with Mountune user specified custom tunes, a Mountune intake ( which is pretty much a metal version of the ST200 airbox intake) along with a drop in panel filter and pf course their intercooler .

With a discount code you could buy all of this for $1079 which significantly reduces the prices overall of everything bringing down the price of their intercooler.

The cool thing about this is all of this was tested by Ford and approved as warranty friendly equipement. So you will most likely not have your dealer crying foul if you show up for warranty work.

Outside of the AP which you might have to unmarry and remove tunes.

caveat being if you dedicde to big Turbo later you will need a larger intercooler.

 

[redmoe]

My opinion on the Mountune intercooler is if you are not planning on going bigger Turbo its not a bad idea except if you do buy it get it in a package.


Mountune has a VB3 package that gives you their RMM, a Cobb AP with Mountune user specified custom tunes, a Mountune intake ( which is pretty much a metal version of the ST200 airbox intake) along with a drop in panel filter and pf course their intercooler .

With a discount code you could buy all of this for $1079 which significantly reduces the prices overall of everything bringing down the price of their intercooler.

The cool thing about this is all of this was tested by Ford and approved as warranty friendly equipement. So you will most likely not have your dealer crying foul if you show up for warranty work.

Outside of the AP which you might have to unmarry and remove tunes.

caveat being if you dedicde to big Turbo later you will need a larger intercooler.

Just to clarify Mountune products that are “warranty” friendly are not actually warranted by Ford. When you have the product installed by Ford, Mountune or an ASE certified technician Mountune will provide a warranty for their product and damage caused by their product. This is only good for the remaining 3/36 and does not extend through the factory powertrain warranty. So if there is a failure after the 3/36 you may be in own. Also they only offer this warranty for certain products.

For reference here is the policy: https://performanceparts.ford.com/warranty/include/pdf/Select_Parts_Warranty_Statement_2017v2.pdf

Only products with the green check mark qualify for this warranty. The mp215 qualifies but the fb3 (with intercooler) does not.

 

[Dpro]

Just to clarify Mountune products that are “warranty” friendly are not actually warranted by Ford. When you have the product installed by Ford, Mountune or an ASE certified technician Mountune will provide a warranty for their product and damage caused by their product. This is only good for the remaining 3/36 and does not extend through the factory powertrain warranty. So if there is a failure after the 3/36 you may be in own. Also they only offer this warranty for certain products.

For reference here is the policy: https://performanceparts.ford.com/warranty/include/pdf/Select_Parts_Warranty_Statement_2017v2.pdf

Only products with the green check mark quality for this warranty. The mp215 qualifies but the fb3 (with intercooler) does not.

Yes I was speaking of warranty friendly, but several of the pieces in the FB3 package are green checked . Including the Intercooler , Intake and RMM. So while the package itself is not some parts are. Which is why I made my comment the way I did about the AP.

The MP215 is also only certified in California for 2014-2016 . Mountune did not recertify the E..O code for 2017-2018.
Which is another reasom I am thinking of getting the FB3 package as whatever I do AP wise its all non CARB. Though the other parts are green checked warranty friendly with Ford.

 

[redmoe]

Yes I was speaking of warranty friendly, but several of the pieces in the FB3 package are green checked . Including the Intercooler , Intake and RMM. So while the package itself is not some parts are. Which is why I made my comment the way I did about the AP.

The MP215 is also only certified in California for 2014-2016 . Mountune did not recertify the E..O code for 2017-2018.
Which is another reasom I am thinking of getting the FB3 package as whatever I do AP wise its all non CARB. Though the other parts are green checked warranty friendly with Ford.

They must have changed their policy/coverage since the last time you looked at their site. The intercooler and RMM are no longer green checked for the warranty coverage. Also the intercooler is tagged for offroad use only.

In regard to the MP215 being covered I believe it is for two reasons: 1. As you mentioned it is CARB certified. 2. The AP in the MP215 kit is locked and no other tunes can be installed which gives mountune some comfort in not having a custom tune that they cannot verify causing an issue. I believe they further control this by having the installation requirement allowing them to better track the flash counts.

At the end of the day you may have a better chance with Mountune products at you dealer than another brand but on paper Ford has no different obligation to Mountune that any other brand. A good relationship with your service manager is key to getting warranty items on a tuned car covered.

Edit: The mountune page does not show the check for the IC but the warranty document shows it. Making it more confusing the warranty document limits the warranty to 2014-2015 models. regardless to get the warranty you need to meet the installation and registration requirements.

Putting the warranty aside the FB3 is still a pretty good deal especially with the discount they are running. The only item I would drop from the kit is the intake and replace it with a crossover pipe/cone filter intake. With a good IC the charge air temps are not impacted much by the open element filter option that allows for more flow.

 

[Dpro]

They must have changed their policy/coverage since the last time you looked at their site. The intercooler and RMM are no longer green checked for the warranty coverage. Also the intercooler is tagged for offroad use only.

In regard to the MP215 being covered I believe it is for two reasons: 1. As you mentioned it is CARB certified. 2. The AP in the MP215 kit is locked and no other tunes can be installed which gives mountune some comfort in not having a custom tune that they cannot verify causing an issue. I believe they further control this by having the installation requirement allowing them to better track the flash counts.

At the end of the day you may have a better chance with Mountune products at you dealer than another brand but on paper Ford has no different obligation to Mountune that any other brand. A good relationship with your service manager is key to getting warranty items on a tuned car covered.

Ya of course, but like I said with a 2017 or 2018 you are out the door at this point even with the MP215 as even Mountune is not endorsing it for 2017 or 2018 install.

I am already aware of all this. I already have decided on the dealer I will use for service as they are already a Performance dealer and less likely to blink at this stuff. They are also another 15 miles closer to me than the dealer I bought my car from.

I do have a few more reasons for recommending the Mountune intercooler though and BRGT350 was the one that brought one of them to my attention. While the Intercooler is no longer green checked it was designed for the car with comsiderable thouht on keeping it out of the airflow to the radiator unlike a lot of the aftermarket ones. That actually was done in conjunction with Ford .

IMO...

I would bet its no longer green checked because when Mountune upgraded the endtamks to cast vs welded they did not advise Ford of it and would not be surprised of Ford required them to pay a fee for Ford approval much like CARB does with their E.O.’s.

Now the other reason is I am a proponent of Tube and Fin intercoolers vs Bar and Plate.
I feel Tube amd Fin are superior air flow wise. The only other Intercooler I would comsider running is the Pumaspeed Pro sport R3 which is also Tube fin. Its the newest Pumapeed Intercooler and says a lot that figured out it was the way to go IMO.

I have played with Turbo cars for years and have always preferred Tube and Fin to Bar and Plate.

As far as Tunes go pretty much anything for a 2017, 2018is technically a no go. Though like you probably know one can umarry and flash their car back to stock before taking it to the dealer amd while they can telll your ecu nas been reset they can’t tell much beyond that and can be explained away as I left my lights on and drained the battey and had to recharge which involved disconnecting which will reset the ecu

 

[redmoe]

Ya of course, but like I said with a 2017 or 2018 you are out the door at this point even with the MP215 as even Mountune is not endorsing it for 2017 or 2018 install.

I am already aware of all this. I already have decided on the dealer I will use for service as they are already a Performance dealer and less likely to blink at this stuff. They are also another 15 miles closer to me than the dealer I bought my car from.

I do have a few more reasons for recommending the Mountune intercooler though and BRGT350 was the one that brought one of them to my attention. While the Intercooler is no longer green checked it was designed for the car with comsiderable thouht on keeping it out of the airflow to the radiator unlike a lot of the aftermarket ones. That actually was done in conjunction with Ford .

IMO...

I would bet its no longer green checked because when Mountune upgraded the endtamks to cast vs welded they did not advise Ford of it and would not be surprised of Ford required them to pay a fee for Ford approval much like CARB does with their E.O.’s.

Now the other reason is I am a proponent of Tube and Fin intercoolers vs Bar and Plate.
I feel Tube amd Fin are superior air flow wise. The only other Intercooler I would comsider running is the Pumaspeed Pro sport R3 which is also Tube fin. Its the newest Pumapeed Intercooler and says a lot that figured out it was the way to go IMO.

I have played with Turbo cars for years and have always preferred Tube and Fin to Bar and Plate.

Also Mountune makes great quality stuff This is my 5th turbo car (previously had an EVO 8, WRX, SRT4 and M235i) and is the first one that I have seen a noticeable coolant temp increase when upgrading the intercooler. I ended up putting in a Mountune radiator to combat it. I hope running the tube and fin helps reduce the airflow restriction that the upgraded FMIC cause. I have a feeling I would have gone with the upgraded radiator anyway as the temps here in AZ were pushing the system higher than I liked. Now with a Whoosh IC and the Mountune radiator I barely ever break 200 F even in 110+ degree days.

 

[Dpro]

Also Mountune makes great quality stuff This is my 5th turbo car (previously had an EVO 8, WRX, SRT4 and M235i) and is the first one that I have seen a noticeable coolant temp increase when upgrading the intercooler. I ended up putting in a Mountune radiator to combat it. I hope running the tube and fin helps reduce the airflow restriction that the upgraded FMIC cause. I have a feeling I would have gone with the upgraded radiator anyway as the temps here in AZ were pushing the system higher than I liked. Now with a Whoosh IC and the Mountune radiator I barely ever break 200 F even in 110+ degree days.

Ya quite honestly coming from the BMW plastic radiator world amd having a factory one literally detonate on the freeway at 75 mph in my old Black M3, pretty much leads me to plan on getting a Mountune radiator as well.
As the FiST’s radiator is plastic too and is already known foe being a weak link in warmer climate areas.

Oh and ya after that it was automatic upgraded on my next M3 , Aluminum radiator..check!

 

[redmoe]

Here’s an informative read on bar and plate vs tube and fin:
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/

They are definitely plus and minuses to each design.

 

[Dpro]

Here’s an informative read on bar and plate vs tube and fin:
http://www.superstreetonline.com/how-to/engine/0304-turp-intercooler/

They are definitely plus and minuses to each design.

Ya I have read that article before and there are couple of issues with it. 1. It was written in 2003 and Tube and Fin intercooler tech has not stood still. They make Tube and Fin different today and a great example of this is the Pumaspeed R Sport Pro 300.

http://www.pumaspeed.co.uk/product-R-Sport-PRO-300-Intercooler-Fiesta-ST180_17244.jsp



The second is the guy they interview works at Spearco who pioneered Bar and Plate and are big proponents of Bar and Plate as thats what they sell mainly lol.

It’s like asking a Cigarette maker about the dangers of Tobacco lol.
Can we say biased?

I should add Tube and fin is no longer constructed the way he describes again the article is 15 years old.


P.S. Bar and Plate was never designed for the kind of airflow needed for automotive applications. It was adapted to it. Unlike Tube and Fin which was designed with Automotive applications from the get go.

To each is own personally from my own research I have found Tube and fin superior for flow through which helps charge temps . The original arguments against it were that it heat soaks faster. Yet it cools down faster.
Though with the new moderen Tube and Fin designs thats pretty much a thing of the past. It flows through better and now gains the features that Bar and Plate fanatics champion as being being superior. I.E. taking longer to heat soak.
The contruction is also more refined as well.

 

[redmoe]

It would be interesting to see actual test data from an “independent” source using the same test vehicle, same physical volume ICs in the same test conditions to really get a feeling for which design is better for different applications. I have yet to see conclusive data to put one design above the other in all categories. The tube/fin vs bar/plate argument seems to be similar to the intake debate with little actual data and mostly opinion.

I have always looked at tube/fin as the option for lighter weight and less air flow restriction and bar/plate as better heat exchange (assumes the same physical size) and cheaper. But again that is just an opinion with no empirical data to back it up.

Here’s a more recent comparison (of course from a manufacturer so has to be taken with a grain of salt):
https://www.mishimoto.com/engineeri...ler-selection/#Tube-and-Fin vs. Bar-and-Plate

 

[M-Sport fan]

Our cars only have ONE catcon in the downpipe, there are not multiple catcons in sequence, like on some of the domestic musclecar V-8s (as well as some of the Nippon and Euro V-6es and V-8s, I am guessing).

A 'longtube' style header does not exist for our application, as there would be NO room for the turbo to go on the end of it, and it would lose spool anyway on a small 4 cylinder engine even if there were.

There ARE aftermarket, welded, tubular (stainless) steel 'shortie' style headers (most on here call them "manifolds") to which the turbo attaches, and then the downpipe, whether catless or catcon.

These are mainly built for only larger hybrid, intermediate sized, or big turbo setups though since there are no gains to be made with these on the tiny factory snail.

In fact, most on here will tell you that an aftermarket catcon downpipe, or even a catless downpipe will show NO gains at all on a factory turbo, and they are a lot of work to change, and not cheap, depending on which brand chosen.

 

[Clint Beastwood]

Hello.
Does anyone make a 2nd cat pipe delete kit. That way main cats stay on and dont get 02 codes??

IM not set on headers because on a c7 z06 cutting off main cats and doing a x pipe cat delete kit gets 18 at wheels where as headers made 21 at wheels and cost 1k more.

Id rather just elimante the 2 rear cats and if possible front cat delete option also because that the killer in the newer gm cars.

All you'll accomplish deleting cats on the FiST is your car will smell and sound bad.