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Springs, braces or swaybars? Which is best?

BRGT350

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Thanks [MENTION=9582]dailybean[/MENTION] and I have enjoyed sharing the information with you. There are a lot of really great members here who want to learn and have important lessons and feedback to share as well. We all learn together.

Take a look at the interviews with Tim Smith for some good insight into the development of the ST https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLppv0DR03yjV40sIPmcD_bGbLjrHQMlGL We had a lot of off camera discussion on the development as well, most of which I have helped share over the years. There are also some Ford of Europe videos somewhere out in YouTube land in which each area of vehicle development for the Fiesta ST is discussed with the engineers. I only had interaction with the engineers in the US, which is safe to say, far and above what most people had access to. It would have been great to meet the team in Europe as they owned the majority of development. Working with the marketing teams, I had limited technical contacts, so they put me in contact with the US engineers. Being part of the Fiesta and Fiesta ST launch programs was fascinating and really taught me a great deal about the cars.
 


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Thanks [MENTION=9582]dailybean[/MENTION] and I have enjoyed sharing the information with you. There are a lot of really great members here who want to learn and have important lessons and feedback to share as well. We all learn together.

Take a look at the interviews with Tim Smith for some good insight into the development of the ST https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLppv0DR03yjV40sIPmcD_bGbLjrHQMlGL We had a lot of off camera discussion on the development as well, most of which I have helped share over the years. There are also some Ford of Europe videos somewhere out in YouTube land in which each area of vehicle development for the Fiesta ST is discussed with the engineers. I only had interaction with the engineers in the US, which is safe to say, far and above what most people had access to. It would have been great to meet the team in Europe as they owned the majority of development. Working with the marketing teams, I had limited technical contacts, so they put me in contact with the US engineers. Being part of the Fiesta and Fiesta ST launch programs was fascinating and really taught me a great deal about the cars.
Might not be the right thread, but can you comment about the optimum ride height for handling?. There’s a number of aftermarket springs available, all with different ride heights, some of which seem extremely low and possibly sub-optimal or even poorly performing.
I’m also interested in track width - since I’ve got wheels with a lower offset the car seems far more refined in mid corner bumps. At what point does widening the track become sub-optimal?
 


BRGT350

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Might not be the right thread, but can you comment about the optimum ride height for handling?. There’s a number of aftermarket springs available, all with different ride heights, some of which seem extremely low and possibly sub-optimal or even poorly performing.
I’m also interested in track width - since I’ve got wheels with a lower offset the car seems far more refined in mid corner bumps. At what point does widening the track become sub-optimal?
The correct answer is stock and the reason is that the factory setting puts all of the suspension components in the right location for proper articulation. The lower ride height with the stock pick-up points will start to move the car away from optimal. When you lower the ride height, you change the relationship between the center of the wheel and the chassis. This means the (in the front) that the control arms and tie rods need to angle upwards at the spindle. Moving the static height and changing the link angles will cause the links (tie rod and control arm) to move at different arcs than designed. The result of that is creating a change in "bump steer". When the tie rod and control arm no longer move in the same arc due to lowering and the suspension is placed in a bump condition (compressed like you are hitting a bump) the arc of tie rod travel may cause the wheel to toe in or toe out in bump. Imagine going around a corner. The suspension compresses on one side and you are turning the wheel. You hold the wheel at a constant position to go around the corner. The tie rod moves on an arc that causes the compressed side of the suspension's spindle to toe in. This means the car is actually turning at more of a rate than you are inputting. This typically leads to a spin. If it toes out in bump, then you need to keep dialing in more steering input to maintain the corner. If the suspension is designed so the control arms and tie rods are parallel to each other and the surface, then the arc they travel in is equal in bump and jounce (up and down). The lower the vehicle is placed, the arms are no longer parallel to themselves or the surface. As the control arm and tie rod move in an arc, the radial distance stays the same, but the horizontal distance can change at a faster rate than expected. This rate of change in displacement is what alters the tie rod distance. In braking, the nose dives and the front wheels can either toe out or in, rather than stay straight. This can make the car very darty under braking.

Next up is the calculation of the roll center at each axle. This is calculated by connecting a series of lines from the spindle center, upper strut, and control arm. It is the geometry that locates where in space the vehicle will roll about. There is one for the rear and the front. Connecting the centers is the roll axis. The greater you lower the vehicle, the more you move the roll center. This can alter the roll axis as well. A very low roll center means the car actually rolls more. You don't realize it as much because the stiffer springs (assuming they are stiffer) counters the roll moment. The springs are masking a handling issue.

But racecars sit low! Yes, but they don't use the factory pick-up points. While my Mustang may be old, the physics and statics still apply. In order to lower my Mustang to get a lower CG, but keep the proper suspension geometry, I had to do the following. First was move the control arm pick-up point the same distance I was lowering the car. The subframe that mounts the control arms has the pick-up points raised in the chassis. Next was to move the steering rack. I had to use special aluminum bushings to move the rack in the chassis. Then I had to articulate the suspension while measuring toe change. The distance between the spindle knuckle and the tie rod end was then adjusted with shims until the toe change was minimal and never toe-in in bump.

Something else worth noting. The suspension bushings are typically in a neutral position at static ride height. Lowering the ride height preloads the bushing in one direction.

With track width, there are a lot of factors at play. Scrub radius, king pin inclination, caster, and wheel offset. I was starting to get into this on my Mustang before deciding the easiest solution was to use as many factory parts at the wheel end. I picked factory wheels and factory spindles, and just moved them outward using longer control arms. This meant I was using a lot of the factory designed geometry at the contact patch. At work, I was in the process of developing a new steer suspension for the front and rear of a vehicle, but moved out of engineering before we got into the design of the wheel end and the affects on handling. There were other important factors I was proving first, but can't discuss them since the patent is in process. I will be honest and say I never got a solid understanding on optimizing the offset and scrub radius. Typically, widening the track with wheels only puts a lot of stress on the bearings and increases the distance between the center of the contact patch and where the king pin inclination angle intersects the ground. This creates a moment of force that can make steering more difficult. This is why increasing caster makes steering effort harder. You change the KPI in relation to the contact patch.

Realistically, lowering less than an inch will have limited affect on the suspension geometry enough to really cause an issue. When I used the Mountune springs, the amount of lowering wasn't even enough to alter the toe to require an alignment. That suggests that there is little bump steer induced from the springs at the revised ride height. It does mean that I will potentially get into a geometry issue with less suspension travel compared to stock since the suspension is sitting statically in a bump condition. I effectively removed some of the suspension travel in bump and moved the articulation more upward in the design envelope.
 


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[MENTION=1313]BRGT350[/MENTION] I have a question regarding another post of yours. Ideally the suspension should be at the factory height as it was designed. You said the Mountune springs you had were a great upgrade but they changed the ride height. Is that because of the minimal change in height? I went with swift because they also were tuned to match the factory dampers but offered a linear spring rate which I prefer the feel of and comparing my past experiences when switching from progressive springs, linear rated always felt much better on the track while putting down mildly faster lap times. This car is not a track car, but I like the feel of linear springs on the road and in normal driving as well. After many FiST owners and companies that offer suspension upgrades stated that the swift springs were the best springs for a performance upgrade, based on that and my experience it was an easy choice for me (I am admittedly biased as stated). With Swift offering a similar drop as the Mountune springs with a higher and linear spring rate, would you say they offer the same upgrade or more in performance? I haven’t had the car at a track with these springs yet, but testing the handling after installing them and an alignment it feels much better on all types of turns I’ve pushed it through so far. Also from my experience experimenting with the front end on my truck and MS3, and adjusting the sway bar back to its original position by swapping the endlinks, I never noticed any ill effects from dropping from the stock height. The truck was never put on a track with any turns (1/4 mile only), but the numbers were there from the Mazda which to me showed an improvement. I always ran the same wheel and tire setup so it wasn’t a difference in grip. Is the information you shared FiST specific or does that apply to every vehicle every time?


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alexrex20

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To be an “independent” rear, the wheels would have to not be “dependent” on each other’s position. Since they are linked by a solid structure and are not independently adjustable and both are affected when force is applied to either of them it would not be “100% an independent” rear.
And yet you would be 100% wrong. You've just described pretty much every vehicle made in the past 50 years. Are you familiar with how a sway bar works? I'm guessing not. I bet you've never even looked under the rear of your car. Sigh.
 


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And yet you would be 100% wrong. You've just described pretty much every vehicle made in the past 50 years. Are you familiar with how a sway bar works? I'm guessing not. I bet you've never even looked under the rear of your car. Sigh.
Considering I’ve installed every part on this car in my driveway, yep I’d say I’ve been under it a few times. Although you wouldn’t care about that right? You’re not here for information. You’re here to pester people who actually care about having a forum of learning. Do a quick search for types of suspension. Then note that twist beam and independent are simply not the same thing. Have fun with yourself. Leave the conversation to the adults who care to contribute something besides trolling. Don’t make [MENTION=1313]BRGT350[/MENTION] take you to school yet again. It’s just embarrassing at this point.


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Ford ST

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A torsion beam/ twist beam rear suspension is not fully independent. My 2010 Ford Focus daily driver has a control blade rear suspension that's fully independent, does not have a rear sway bar.

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D1JL

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There is a lot of good information here.
However could you all make shorter posts?
I have a headache. [mecry]


Dave
 


Dpro

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The trick in lowering a car in regards to what BRGT350 said is always making sure your control arms never go beyond parallel to the crossmember. I.E. flat or angle downwards. If they wind up angled upwards then you will experience the bump steer he is talking about. I learnd this back in High school with Datsun 510’s when we started lowering them.In fact its why I bought a 69 2 door as the pickup points on the front crossmmber for the control arms was higher than on the 70-73 510 crossmembers. It was in suspensions books back then as well.

This is not new stuff, lots of us have lowered cars successfully without messing up suspension geometry. Roll center is another factor as well like he said and in the Nissan 240sx world a lot of people got into having different knuckles made to correct roll center on extremely lowered cars.

Most aftermarket spring maunfacturers these days are aware of this as well and usually do not offer springs that will drop the car enough to mess up roll center or put your control arms at an upwards angle.
Its when one puts on coilovers giving much more leeway over ride height adjustment that these problems usually can crop up.

Again its the end user who wants to slam the car that usually makes these mistakes.
Seen it in the 240sx world and drifting quite a bit . It took several years for people in that world to realize the mistakes they were making. It was like even though some of us knew people tend not always listen. It was the whole its gotta be on the ground mentality.
In the end though a lot of innovative roll center correction products and whatnot came out of it. It was interesting.

Sufffice to say with our cars something like Swift springs will not mess up the geometry as they are not that drastic. Their is a bit of wiggle room IMO.
Now when one puts on coilovers then there is chance they could go to low.
I do feel though that our cars are pretty well setup from the factory hence short of a dedicated track car shocks amd springs is really as far as one needs to go. Coilovers are a bit overkill.
Funny thing is 240sx’s handled great stock as well. Factory they pulled .89 on the skidpad.
They had some body roll but most cars setup for street do. Swaybars will take care of that or different spring rates and shocks.
of course again one has to be carefull not ot overdamp or they will get a bouncy ride.
 


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[MENTION=8838]Dpro[/MENTION] thanks for the great response! I’m jealous of the 510 those are some of my favorites up there with the first gen Celica and the RX-2.


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alexrex20

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Considering I’ve installed every part on this car in my driveway, yep I’d say I’ve been under it a few times. Although you wouldn’t care about that right? You’re not here for information. You’re here to pester people who actually care about having a forum of learning. Do a quick search for types of suspension. Then note that twist beam and independent are simply not the same thing. Have fun with yourself. Leave the conversation to the adults who care to contribute something besides trolling. Don’t make [MENTION=1313]BRGT350[/MENTION] take you to school yet again. It’s just embarrassing at this point.


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LOL I'm not the one that doesn't know what a solid axle is. You're right. It IS embarrassing. Mr. Big Words and Unnecessarily Long Posts is spreading misinformation that the ignorant masses are eating up because they don't know any better.

Your lack of reading comprehension is also embarrassing. There is a difference between "100% an independent rear suspension" and "a 100% independent rear suspension." Read my post again, then a second and third time, and try and comprehend it. And try to comprehend it without asking BRGT350 for help.
 


D1JL

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It is OK to present opposing view points (right or wrong) and also to have different opinions.
However please remember to keep it friendly and use restraint when telling someone that you don't agree with them.

Dave
 


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M-Sport in the UK produced their “Edition” series ST daily driver. M-Sport for those that might not know produces WRC, R5 and other classes if Fiesta ST derived rally cars. Their final Edition version had an 11mm wider track by reducing the offset if the wheels by 5.5mm, and ran the Eibach Prosport springs with B8s. Probably a good place to start given the testing they would have been able to do, and they fact that were happy to put their name all over the car.
 


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[MENTION=1313]BRGT350[/MENTION] I have a question regarding another post of yours. Ideally the suspension should be at the factory height as it was designed. You said the Mountune springs you had were a great upgrade but they changed the ride height. Is that because of the minimal change in height? I went with swift because they also were tuned to match the factory dampers but offered a linear spring rate which I prefer the feel of and comparing my past experiences when switching from progressive springs, linear rated always felt much better on the track while putting down mildly faster lap times. This car is not a track car, but I like the feel of linear springs on the road and in normal driving as well. After many FiST owners and companies that offer suspension upgrades stated that the swift springs were the best springs for a performance upgrade, based on that and my experience it was an easy choice for me (I am admittedly biased as stated). With Swift offering a similar drop as the Mountune springs with a higher and linear spring rate, would you say they offer the same upgrade or more in performance? I haven’t had the car at a track with these springs yet, but testing the handling after installing them and an alignment it feels much better on all types of turns I’ve pushed it through so far. Also from my experience experimenting with the front end on my truck and MS3, and adjusting the sway bar back to its original position by swapping the endlinks, I never noticed any ill effects from dropping from the stock height. The truck was never put on a track with any turns (1/4 mile only), but the numbers were there from the Mazda which to me showed an improvement. I always ran the same wheel and tire setup so it wasn’t a difference in grip. Is the information you shared FiST specific or does that apply to every vehicle every time?


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I also want to know this. I recently purchased Eibach Pro Kit springs, which only have a mild 0.8" / 0.7" drop. Is that enough to bring the suspension geometry past optimal range?

M-Sport in the UK produced their “Edition” series ST daily driver. M-Sport for those that might not know produces WRC, R5 and other classes if Fiesta ST derived rally cars. Their final Edition version had an 11mm wider track by reducing the offset if the wheels by 5.5mm, and ran the Eibach Prosport springs with B8s. Probably a good place to start given the testing they would have been able to do, and they fact that were happy to put their name all over the car.
That's good to know. I hope that means that the Eibach Pro Kit springs are still at optimal range.
 


Dpro

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[MENTION=8838]Dpro[/MENTION] thanks for the great response! I’m jealous of the 510 those are some of my favorites up there with the first gen Celica and the RX-2.


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Heh 510’s mopped the floor with Celica’s and RX2’s. Hell they mopped the floor with Alfa GTV’s. and BMW 2002’s. In both IMSA and Trans AM under 2.5 liter three years Running world championship !

There is a reason I wanted a customized plate that read IEATBMW.
Oh and those were springs and shocks cars as coilovers were all but unheard of back in those days.
Coilovers did not really come into the picture till mid to late 80’s and really did not hit it big until the 90’s.



Around three years after that my long love affair with 240Z’s would start.

I only got into BMW’s with the E36 M3’s.
 


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LOL I'm not the one that doesn't know what a solid axle is. You're right. It IS embarrassing. Mr. Big Words and Unnecessarily Long Posts is spreading misinformation that the ignorant masses are eating up because they don't know any better.

Your lack of reading comprehension is also embarrassing. There is a difference between "100% an independent rear suspension" and "a 100% independent rear suspension." Read my post again, then a second and third time, and try and comprehend it. And try to comprehend it without asking BRGT350 for help.
If you could provide proof that it is classified as an independent suspension I would appreciate it. But every article I read when I was looking for information on the Fiesta only cited the difference between a torsion beam and independent suspension from what I could remember. So instead of flaming people, provide proof and examples for your arguments and I will gladly admit I’m wrong.


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Heh 510’s mopped the floor with Celica’s and RX2’s. Hell they mopped the floor with Alfa GTV’s. and BMW 2002’s. In both IMSA and Trans AM under 2.5 liter three years Running world championship !

There is a reason I wanted a customized plate that read IEATBMW.
Oh and those were springs and shocks cars as coilovers were all but unheard of back in those days.
Coilovers did not really come into the picture till mid to late 80’s and really did not hit it big until the 90’s.



Around three years after that my long love affair with 240Z’s would start.

I only got into BMW’s with the E36 M3’s.
Absolutely. I’m just talking about the look of them since I’ve never had the pleasure of driving any of those. Guys always wondered why I only ran springs and shocks instead of adjustable coilovers on both of my previous cars but I never felt the need.

If you’re going to get into any BMW, the E36 is probably one of the best you could do. Those things are still feared on tracks!

A buddy of mine has a Chevy 350 swapped ‘76 280Z with a lot of custom work. It’s a beauty and with the heads and cam done it’s a beast! He gets a lot of crap (all in good fun) from the older guys at meets for engine swapping haha.


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