Springs, braces or swaybars? Which is best?

[danbfree]

That’s exactly why the chassis bracing, rear motor mount and springs are on my car. Everything only compliments the balance, not change it, and gets rid of the torque steer and wheel hop that it had from the factory so it can do what it naturally does, only much better.

BINGO, thread closed...

 

[alexrex20]

That’s exactly why the chassis bracing, rear motor mount and springs are on my car. Everything only compliments the balance, not change it, and gets rid of the torque steer and wheel hop that it had from the factory so it can do what it naturally does, only much better.


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All of this.

I have stock shocks/struts and springs. I've only added braces and a rear torsion/sway bar. The balance is perfect on the track, so it's also perfect on the street. There is a definite correlation between the two, albeit it's much easier to go one direction than the other.

Some folks are dead set against braces because they insist they don't make a difference, but they've also never driven a Fiesta with braces so their opinion is well... Worthless.

Let the suspension do its thing by stiffening up the platform. If you want to lower it a little for looks, that's fine. The car is incredibly well set up from the factory and the chassis braces make it even more so.

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[danbfree]

All of this.

I have stock shocks/struts and springs. I've only added braces and a rear torsion/sway bar. The balance is perfect on the track, so it's also perfect on the street. There is a definite correlation between the two, albeit it's much easier to go one direction than the other.

Some folks are dead set against braces because they insist they don't make a difference, but they've also never driven a Fiesta with braces so their opinion is well... Worthless.

Let the suspension do its thing by stiffening up the platform. If you want to lower it a little for looks, that's fine. The car is incredibly well set up from the factory and the chassis braces make it even more so.

Anyone who says that braces don't make a difference may as well claim the earth is flat... sheesh, just a 2 pt./traction bar helps with torque steer, wheel hop AND turn-in, I'm sure more subframe bracing helps further from there for those into tracking/autocross, etc.

 

[alexrex20]

Yep. I have the 6pt, midship, and trunk brace. The steering is almost telepathic.

 

[danbfree]

I may have missed this, so if it was brought up previously I apologize. But another aspect to consider would be stroke length of the shock. Considering the vehicle will be lower with the springs this can be a major shortcoming of staying with OEM shocks.

Hmmm, interesting point to bring up, but this is the first car I've owned (4th in 4 years, yeah...) that the whole enthusiast scene behind it *hasn't* screamed "JUST GET COILOVERS ALREADY!", and I think it's because it's well dampened from the factory, I just don't think they are good at lasting long term...

 

[BRGT350]

I would disagree only because the best drivers I’ve known have had more than springs on their track cars. Guys with dedicated track setups don’t run stock vehicles for good reason, they’re slower on any track with an equal driver. I’m not a professional driver by any means, but I’ve been through enough advanced defensive and offensive, on and off-road, and Moto courses to know when a stock vehicle has reached its limits or what I simply prefer my daily driver to be setup like. To each his own, but modifying a vehicle does mean the driver is incompetent.


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Are you building a dedicated race car or something that is more suited for the street? My Mustang, in contrast to my ST, has just about every brace possible (except through-floor sub frame connectors), a complete Maximum Motorsports competition suspension, 6-point roll bar, and adjustable coil-overs. That is a track setup, not designed for the street. Since I just had to submit a build sheet on the car for insurance, I can say that I have stuffed a Fiesta ST worth of parts into the car. According to my lap times, I am still faster in a 100% stock Fiesta ST after spending time at a professional driver's school. It is all about the skill of the driver, not the sum of the parts.

Dedicated track cars only have a single purpose, to provide the fastest lap time possible within the confines of the rulebook. They don't need to operate on a highway. Comfort is removed for the sake of a faster lap. Suspensions can be incredibly stiff because the track surface is far smoother than any public road. Weight is optimized as items such as HVAC and infotainment aren't needed. Alignments are set for creating optimal tire temps across the contact patch rather than extending the life of the tire. Ride heights are set with no regard to having to enter a steep driveway. Dedicated track cars aren't street cars. If you are at the point of building a dedicated track car, then you are most likely way past the point of asking opinions from forums. You have had years of track experience guiding decisions. You have a fundamental understanding of suspension dynamics. You have mastered the art of performance driving and are ready to build a car to maximize the skill set.

Concerning all the braces, I would love to see an engineering explanation on how they do what they claim to do. With the exception of the lower chassis brace, I see very little value in the parts. I am probably one of the few engineers here and probably one of the only one with experience designing, testing, and evaluating vehicle suspensions. I would love for somebody to throw up a FBD showing the load paths. Until then, I will remain skeptical.

 

[alexrex20]

Even half-million dollar Ferraris and Lambos and McLarens with their carbon fiber tubs have braces. Silly engineers!

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[dailybean]

If you are at the point of building a dedicated track car, then you are most likely way past the point of asking opinions from forums.

Then why are you arguing with us on a forum? People do what they like to their cars because it’s their car and they like to do it. If it feels better to a driver on the street for what I believe is the OP’s daily street car... then it’s better for him. Btw, most of us here that have plenty of track time know what a race car is, but thanks for the typical engineer response.


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[BRGT350]

and this is why I hate wasting my time commenting. 20+ years of working on vehicle suspensions, autocrossing, open track, graduating with honors in engineering, reading countless number of books on suspension dynamics and racecar engineering, years of designing suspensions, and working for a race team all count for nothing.

 

[J_BadWOLF]

and this is why I hate wasting my time commenting. 20+ years of working on vehicle suspensions, autocrossing, open track, graduating with honors in engineering, reading countless number of books on suspension dynamics and racecar engineering, years of designing suspensions, and working for a race team all count for nothing.

Well I am all ears for information givin, so keep it open to those of us open and receptive to the information! [emoji16]

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[Ford ST]

and this is why I hate wasting my time commenting. 20+ years of working on vehicle suspensions, autocrossing, open track, graduating with honors in engineering, reading countless number of books on suspension dynamics and racecar engineering, years of designing suspensions, and working for a race team all count for nothing.

I for one appreciate your input and knowledge. I've always been a OEM suspension type of guy. I want to preserve longevity, and durability of the suspension, and steering components, as well as proper alignment for tire life. Maybe it's because I know 3 Engineers very well give the fact none of them work in engineering anymore, because they hated it. Two of them are brothers and own a chain of subways, and gas stations. The other one is my sister-in-law's husband he was a mechanical engineer, and a massive car enthusiasts but hates the office environment, so he works as a fireman now.

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[dailybean]

Nobody is doubting your credentials. It’s one thing to educate people, it’s another thing to call out people for being poor drivers having never seen them drive. The lap time evidence is there to support the various suspension components we’ve discussed here you just have to search for them. When I built my MS3 I went through a lot of trial and error to get the car to the point where it would run the fastest lap time it could while being perfectly comfortable on the street. I’m pretty sure [MENTION=879]D1JL[/MENTION] could tell you his FiST is much improved over stock as he’s tested more than probably anyone I’ve seen here as far as mods goes. Like you’ve said in your other posts and videos, it’s all about what you want to do to your car because it’s the way you like it.


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[BRGT350]

Nobody is doubting your credentials. It’s one thing to educate people, it’s another thing to call out people for being poor drivers having never seen them drive. The lap time evidence is there to support the various suspension components we’ve discussed here you just have to search for them. When I built my MS3 I went through a lot of trial and error to get the car to the point where it would run the fastest lap time it could while being perfectly comfortable on the street. I’m pretty sure [MENTION=879]D1JL[/MENTION] could tell you his FiST is much improved over stock as he’s tested more than probably anyone I’ve seen here as far as mods goes. Like you’ve said in your other posts and videos, it’s all about what you want to do to your car because it’s the way you like it.


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If I made it sound like I was calling somebody out for being a bad driver, that wasn't my intent and I am sorry if it came out that way. When I started out in autocrossing, I would throw tons of parts at the car in an attempt to make it do something different. The root cause of the parts was more about masking my own issues rather than the cars. I was speaking from personal experience and I am sure others have fallen into the same trap. It was years before I figured it out. If I can save others from going down the same path, then it is worth it. In hindsight, the money would have been better spent on driver education rather than on the parts. Over and over again, seat time and learning make the biggest difference in pure lap times. That doesn't translate to enjoyment of the car, so it is important to define what you want in the car.

I did find it upsetting that it was claimed that anyone who doubts the braces work also thinks the world is flat.

 

[dailybean]

If I made it sound like I was calling somebody out for being a bad driver, that wasn't my intent and I am sorry if it came out that way. When I started out in autocrossing, I would throw tons of parts at the car in an attempt to make it do something different. The root cause of the parts was more about masking my own issues rather than the cars. I was speaking from personal experience and I am sure others have fallen into the same trap. It was years before I figured it out. If I can save others from going down the same path, then it is worth it. In hindsight, the money would have been better spent on driver education rather than on the parts. Over and over again, seat time and learning make the biggest difference in pure lap times. That doesn't translate to enjoyment of the car, so it is important to define what you want in the car.

I did find it upsetting that it was claimed that anyone who doubts the braces work also thinks the world is flat.

I agree. In a previous post I said I agreed that you need to learn to drive before you start modding. But with the countless hours I’ve spent both on the track and in driving education for both running on and off road, 4 wheels and 2... I know how to adjust a vehicle to how I like it to behave. Although I’m not in automotive engineering (Chemical) I understand where you are coming from. I don’t run autocross anymore because I don’t enjoy it. But on road courses I can tell you that the modifications I’ve done in the past have improved my vehicle’s ability to take corners faster and come out of them quicker after learning them on a stock vehicle. HPDE helped much more than the parts yes, but there is a place for chassis bracing and suspension modification in racing. It helped control the 360whp I was putting down in my fail wheel drive MS3 because I also ran it at drag strips and on the street. My opinions are based on real world experience, both mine and others, as are yours. But you can’t tell me that a vehicle in stock form will keep up with a properly modified vehicle with the same driver. Master the car you drive, then improve it if you want to. If it’s enough for you in near stock form then that is awesome because it saves a ton of money. It depends on what your car is used for.


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[Kalter]

I'm no engineer, but I know after installing my braces that it made a difference. I can't tell if all of them makes a difference (Traction bar, crossmember, torsion bar and trunk brace), but I know for sure that there IS a difference in how the body reacts in corners and even straight line.

I can vouch for the Trunk brace though as I drove a bit with just this one before installing the others and it made a difference. The back definitely reacts differently now. After I installed the other braces, there was also definitely a difference, but since I installed them all at the same time, I can't tell what each one did. I can say for sure that the traction bar is doing its job though. It's much better at cornering now. At the very least, the traction bar is a good handle to slide myself under the car.

If anything, I have some doubts if the torsion bar is actually doing anything more, but for the price I got the kit, it was basically free.

The platform is already super fucking good. Adding the braces will not transform the car as much as changing the RMM (traction bar might be a contender), it's more subtle. I don't regret buying them, but I bought them because I got a good deal and not because I thought I needed them right now.

For the chassis upgrades, I think it should go like that: RMM -> traction bar -> trunk brace -> suspension. I believe the trunk bar will make a bigger difference than the crossmember.

 

[Adub]

I agree. In a previous post I said I agreed that you need to learn to drive before you start modding. But with the countless hours I’ve spent both on the track and in driving education for both running on and off road, 4 wheels and 2... I know how to adjust a vehicle to how I like it to behave. Although I’m not in automotive engineering (Chemical) I understand where you are coming from. I don’t run autocross anymore because I don’t enjoy it. But on road courses I can tell you that the modifications I’ve done in the past have improved my vehicle’s ability to take corners faster and come out of them quicker after learning them on a stock vehicle. HPDE helped much more than the parts yes, but there is a place for chassis bracing and suspension modification in racing. It helped control the 360whp I was putting down in my fail wheel drive MS3 because I also ran it at drag strips and on the street. My opinions are based on real world experience, both mine and others, as are yours. But you can’t tell me that a vehicle in stock form will keep up with a properly modified vehicle with the same driver. Master the car you drive, then improve it if you want to. If it’s enough for you in near stock form then that is awesome because it saves a ton of money. It depends on what your car is used for.


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Not trying to stir up shit, but didn't you just get your car? Why would you immediately put a huge brace kit on it before spending that lengthy amount of track time on it to understand how it handles? BRGT350 was only trying help us with his wealth of knowledge and he has the credentials to prove it. It sounds to me like you are trying to justify your purchase of your bracing kit.

 

[dailybean]

Not trying to stir up shit, but didn't you just get your car? Why would you immediately put a huge brace kit on it before spending that lengthy amount of track time on it to understand how it handles? BRGT350 was only trying help us with his wealth of knowledge and he has the credentials to prove it. It sounds to me like you are trying to justify your purchase of your bracing kit.

Not at all. I’m only saying that there are definitely purposes for modifying a vehicle when the parts in question are proven to work. The work I do to my car is always trial and error and I’ve already had fun with the fiesta for the past couple months in its stock form. It doesn’t take years of driving a car to know what you’d like to change, and on top of that I’m relying on my past experiences, general knowledge and the discussions between other people both online and in group meets of what they think of their modifications. It’s a combination of a lot of things that lead me to the few things I’ve done to it. I would not call what I have a “huge brace kit”. Traction bar for torque steer and turn in feel and controlling it better once I start adding a little power, and the two rear bars to tighten the rear end because I don’t want the rear to flex like it does. Like I’ve said before, suspension is subjective to how the driver likes the car to handle and I know how to setup a car the way I want it to behave. I might be “new” to this platform but that doesn’t mean it’s my first rodeo. And as I stated again that I appreciate the knowledge he has, but if someone has a direction they want to take their car in, there’s always going to be a difference in opinion from others. But stating that there is no need to change the fiesta is a personal opinion, not fact. I had no problem with his statements other than that parts mask a bad driver because that’s an arrogant statement to make, to which he has already said he did not mean it the way it sounded and that’s fine I appreciate it.


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[alexrex20]

I don't consider a framed piece of paper to be credentials on this matter. The empirical evidence from my own experience and that of others is what I will give creedence to.

Some people are so stuck in their own little bubble that they refuse to believe anything different from what they've been preaching for years, despite a wealth of evidence to the contrary.

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[Adub]

I don't consider a framed piece of paper to be credentials on this matter. The empirical evidence from my own experience and that of others is what I will give creedence to.

Some people are so stuck in their own little bubble that they refuse to believe anything different from what they've been preaching for years, despite a wealth of evidence to the contrary.

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Lol than what do you consider credentials? He has 20+ years working on suspensions. What do you have? It seems to me like you are the one stuck in your own bubble and trying to justify your 6 point brace system purchase to others. Provide that data like BRGT350 said and then you will have others respect, instead of being a jerk and responding to his original comment with "Blah blah blah".

 

[alexrex20]

I'm still waiting for his data that proves that bracing does not work. He can say anything he wants on the internet, there will always be a yuppie brown noser to believe him. If he can't provide data to prove his statement, then it is no different than mine. At that point the only difference is that I actually have experience with braces and he does not.

At this point I will accept data from any platform that shows that bracing does not make a difference. I'll wait.

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