Fiesta ST Spark plug tech

[razorlab]

Nice to see more people like Forzda here, welcome.

 

[airjor13]

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/spark-plug-tech/

Some good reliable information here.

 

[FORZDA 2]

http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/spark-plug-tech/

Some good reliable information here.

The Statified folks are pretty good for sure. He started out in the mazdaspeed forums and if you do some research on their beginnings over on mazdaspeedforums.org you will find a plethora of my posts from way back in 2007 when we were figuring out the ECU and the built-in power limitations along with Cobb Tuning (the AP flash tuner) and CPE (a piggyback interceptor tuner). It was a max Load limit set in the ECU and it took us some time to figure it out. There was some competition between Cobb and CPE and "secrets" revealed so all could progress with the power increases. It was a nasty business, but they finally reconciled and now promote each others' products. They both make top quality stuff, so you can't go wrong with either.

 

[Hijinx]

Forzda what about those who have chosen a turbo upgrade? Should they stick with stock plugs or continue looking for a colder plug?

 

[FORZDA 2]

Forzda what about those who have chosen a turbo upgrade? Should they stick with stock plugs or continue looking for a colder plug?

It all depends on the combustion pressure and the quality of the fuel used. Deposits that cause hot spots are mostly from crap additives in the fuel. Back in the old days before unleaded gas, the tetra-ethyl lead used to increase the octane rating and lubricate the valve seats would coat the center insulator and short it out to ground! Consider that for a moment. We added LEAD to the fuel to make it less volatile and called the premium gas "hi-test" and "ethyl".

I will eventually put a bigger turbo on mine, but I will stay with the stock plugs until the data says I need to go colder. You do run data logs occasionally, right? As was mentioned in the previous link, the plug gap is the first thing to try if you think you're having spark problems. Note that I haven't experienced any problems (at all) with the stock plugs/gap at up to 27psi boost and 2.7 Load, so unless folks just want to change something to keep on "modding" their car to have something to talk about I recommend stay with the OEM parts.
I fully understand the desire to keep swapping parts for the sake of swapping parts (most don't admit or even realize their affliction) but I try to stay with the functional need. That said, I did buy and install the rear wing extensions from mountune and the front splitter from 3R because I like the way it looks. It has no actual function on this car however, other than to please me. If folks would just admit that and move on they will be much happier than trying to justify their expenditures by asking for opinions (really looking for approval) from others.

I wouldn't stop "looking" for a suitable replacement spark plugs with a step or two colder range because they will be needed eventually by someone who keeps building the power output until they NEED them. They MUST be the same physical dimensions as the OEM plugs though...

 

[Hijinx]

I have many many datalogs. I understand that a colder plug on a daily is hardly needed. Learned that with my Genesis Coupe. I don't particularly like modding things that don't need modding and although I had a feeling it would be a waste, I got the plugs for a nice price so I figured I'd try them out. Since we've been leaning towards the subjective side, I think my car has rougher idle. Gas mileage has dropped, and I've seen more negative timing corrections than with my OEM plugs. I went through the same issue with my Genesis... I alerted Panda to the mismatch and they're going to dig into the issue, hopefully.

 

[RAAMaudio]

FORZDA 2, Welcome to the site

You were a bit rough on some of your earlier comments on this thread, your points were fine but the delivery could of been a bit nicer

That said, it is great to have another member with obviously great experience helping sort out this fun little car.

I might have to buy some stock plugs unless there is a suitable alternative that may be a bit better, any recommendations?
I sold my stock plugs and in total bought 13 of the NGK plugs so I could find a set of 4 to index and as mentioned previously it helped with a timing issue on cyl #1 when I did so.

Indexing: It seems rational, logical and reasonable to "assume" that to be a good thing with these modern engines, what is your take on it?

 

[FORZDA 2]

FORZDA 2, Welcome to the site

You were a bit rough on some of your earlier comments on this thread, your points were fine but the delivery could of been a bit nicer

That said, it is great to have another member with obviously great experience helping sort out this fun little car.

I might have to buy some stock plugs unless there is a suitable alternative that may be a bit better, any recommendations?
I sold my stock plugs and in total bought 13 of the NGK plugs so I could find a set of 4 to index and as mentioned previously it helped with a timing issue on cyl #1 when I did so.

Indexing: It seems rational, logical and reasonable to "assume" that to be a good thing with these modern engines, what is your take on it?

My experience says that the Motorcraft branded spark plugs are as good as it gets. I've run every plug known to man and I've never had a single problem with them. That said, I run the Denso brand plugs in my Speed6, but in the stock heat range. I've pushed it HARD (it has two bent rods from an uncontrolled overboost well north of 30+psi right now. My fault!) but no problems with spark plugs.

Indexing spark plugs was a routine action back in the old days when the cylinder head and combustion chamber designs were shall we say, "lacking" todays flow technology. I've done it many times for my old drag racer cars. The taper-seat spark plugs make it a PITA, but the prevalent design was crushable washers in previous decades, so you just measured the "crush" of a set of washers and swapped washers to get the desired angle. However, IMO these and other forced induction cars are highly developed to meet emissions and thusly have VERY efficient head and chamber designs. DISI engines are a relatively new feature and do not NEED such detailed work. Although I haven't actually measured the power output difference it would certainly be lost in the noise range on a dyno.

It won't hurt anything, though. In a "perception" scenario, it may give the driver/mechanic some confidence otherwise missing that could result in improved driving performance. Make sense? I know for SURE that I drive better when I know I have done everything possible (in my personal view) to squeeze the last ounce (within a given rule set or budget) of performance out of the engine and the rest is up to me.

 

[razorlab]

I like this guy.

Too bad you are in OK, I'd buy you a beer.

 

[Hijinx]

Razor likes someone. I'm scared... I need an adult lol

 

[RAAMaudio]

I do too

Thanks for the great response!

I am very familiar with using the crush washers.

I get it, I do things I know might make little or no certain improvement but it feels good knowing you have done your best.

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Earlier the splitter was mentioned. Having been at great speed in Vettes with no splitter but had deep under the bumper "air dam", like the stock FiST, I know the bolt on splitters will do little more than look nice for those that like them. I am of the love the looks camp but only if they do more than that. I have a full undertray as modded mine for it and so far top speed has been 130MPH and it was very stable. I have only been to around 50 stock as barely drove the car before the mod virus set in.

Driving the car without the splitter is much easier for normal use, only good at speed and an improvement or so.

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Plugs, topic at hand, I am all ears here

 

[JPGC]

My experience says that the Motorcraft branded spark plugs are as good as it gets. I've run every plug known to man and I've never had a single problem with them. That said, I run the Denso brand plugs in my Speed6, but in the stock heat range. I've pushed it HARD (it has two bent rods from an uncontrolled overboost well north of 30+psi right now. My fault!) but no problems with spark plugs.

Indexing spark plugs was a routine action back in the old days when the cylinder head and combustion chamber designs were shall we say, "lacking" todays flow technology. I've done it many times for my old drag racer cars. The taper-seat spark plugs make it a PITA, but the prevalent design was crushable washers in previous decades, so you just measured the "crush" of a set of washers and swapped washers to get the desired angle. However, IMO these and other forced induction cars are highly developed to meet emissions and thusly have VERY efficient head and chamber designs. DISI engines are a relatively new feature and do not NEED such detailed work. Although I haven't actually measured the power output difference it would certainly be lost in the noise range on a dyno.

It won't hurt anything, though. In a "perception" scenario, it may give the driver/mechanic some confidence otherwise missing that could result in improved driving performance. Make sense? I know for SURE that I drive better when I know I have done everything possible (in my personal view) to squeeze the last ounce (within a given rule set or budget) of performance out of the engine and the rest is up to me.

This post is quite helpful, to me at least, as it gives me the experienced answer that I'm looking for when it comes to this engine and the spark plugs. +1 rep to you and welcome to the site.

 

[FORZDA 2]

... I have a full undertray as modded mine for it and so far top speed has been 130MPH and it was very stable. I have only been to around 50 stock as barely drove the car before the mod virus set in.

Driving the car without the splitter is much easier for normal use, only good at speed and an improvement or so....

I have a functional splitter on my 2003 Supercharged Miata from TrackDog racing. I haven't had the time to install the 3R on the FiestaST yet, but I have driven the car (completely stock right down to the air in the tires) to a flat-out drag-limited top speed of 137mph (GPS verified) near redline in 5th gear. 6th gear wouldn't pull any higher as there is nothing left in the little turbo at that rpm. The ECU drops the max boost after a short spurt into "overboost" as well. It was completely stable and quite impressive in a literally showroom-stock econo box.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I have modded many cars and have 10 years of experience in 510 Datsuns all the way to highly modded Vettes and this little FiST is one of if not my favorite to drive, it is that much fun. I am taking my splitter/undertray off for the winter, I will go to my high speed test area and see how it feels, after I bolt on the stock air dam parts first of course.

137 MPH is quite impressive for a stock "econobox" that is so fun to drive and easy on fuel

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Getting a bit off track here, back to plugs. The most important thoing I have learned in life is we can and should always learn so I am listening to this very interesting thread on plugs.

 

[Sourskittle]

No doubt... Im going back to stock plugs tomorrow

 

[airjor13]

The OEM design protrudes further into the combustion chamber and I think for a reason. If you look at the piston design, it has a bowl shape in the crown usually called a Mexican Hat design, very common with current diesel engines. The crown acts like part of the combustion camber and the shape creates swirl to promote complete burning of the fuel/air mixture.

View attachment 2691

Hey man, I don't think those are OE pistons, but rather PEC forged pistons

http://jam-sport.co.uk/shop/ford-eco-boost-1-6-turbo-pec-forged-pistons-pec-steel-con-rod-kit/

I was looking through the Ford Parts US site and here is the illustration of the piston shape

 

[Sekred]

Hey man, I don't think those are OE pistons, but rather PEC forged pistons

http://jam-sport.co.uk/shop/ford-eco-boost-1-6-turbo-pec-forged-pistons-pec-steel-con-rod-kit/

I was looking through the Ford Parts US site and here is the illustration of the piston shape

Yes your right, sorry for misleading anyone. From my understanding the PEC piston is a copy of the OEM design, same compression ratio of 10:1.
My theory for one of the reasons for using a projected spark plug because of the piston design is unproven and could be wrong.

 

[airjor13]

Yes your right, sorry for misleading anyone. From my understanding the PEC piston is a copy of the OEM design, same compression ratio of 10:1.
My theory for one of the reasons for using a projected spark plug because of the piston design is unproven and could be wrong.

No worries man, I might have to just order a single piston to confirm the shape of it!

 

[Sourskittle]

I don't want to jump right out and blame the plugs because i'm not sure its the plugs, but I starting getting ign corrections the same time i swapped the plugs a few days ago and i was having a hard time tuning it out. After the intercooler install tonight, its still pulling timing, sometimes on less than 7psi. Almost like its load reactive. So I re-flashed a ballz deep stock stg3 93oct tune and gave it a drive and samething... Still pulling timing. I'm going back to the stock plugs tomorrow and I'll update this thread.

 

[airjor13]

I don't want to jump right out and blame the plugs because i'm not sure its the plugs, but I starting getting ign corrections the same time i swapped the plugs a few days ago and i was having a hard time tuning it out. After the intercooler install tonight, its still pulling timing, sometimes on less than 7psi. Almost like its load reactive. So I re-flashed a ballz deep stock stg3 93oct tune and gave it a drive and samething... Still pulling timing. I'm going back to the stock plugs tomorrow and I'll update this thread.

Curious how much timing is your motor pulling? I m going to monitor all 4 cyl corrections tomorrow.