E30 tune. Am I missing out?

[danbfree]

Sorry but you are wrong. 87 E30 mix is not even 93 octane. If you honestly think E30 has nothing to do with the octane rating why don't you go ask a tuner because you are so wrong.

http://www.georgebelton.com/E85Calculator.php

What's wrong is you not bothering to even do the math and spouting off how I'm wrong. My mix comes out to 94 octane (93.7 to be exact) , that's the exact calculator I used ahead of time there guy... Maybe, you know, try actually reading what my mix was first next time, it came out to e35 to make up for the low octane Regular, Jason says this is fine... not 100% ideal but totally fine.

Also, let's go over some other terms: "matters much"... as in not the main thing. Yes, 87 octane ALL by itself is bad, but 93+ final mix is fine with the Dizzy e30, Jason and I discussed this ahead of time. If 93.7 octane isn't high enough, then my OAR wouldn't max out quickly to -1.00 and stay there. C'mon man, let's operate using facts and not guessing where you don't bother to read the whole thing. In fact, I knew ahead of time because Jason posted how he did this himself, used Regular but went slightly higher on the E to e35 and his tunes run fine that way, so that's what gave me the idea to make lemonade out of the lemons of being filled up with Regular accidentally and the results are awesome!

 

[Ford ST]

Okay I'm specifically talking about mixing E30 with 87. I don't want people who are going to run a E30 tune to think that is okay because it is not. That is not what E30 Tunes are made for.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[Meowoosh]

So after speaking with my Chem 2 Professor, who is pretty well researched into fuels and combustibles, I have been informed that E85 isn't really the best fuel. In fact, he says it is a horrible fuel. Toluene or xylene? (I think) he recommends as better octane boosters than ethanol. He even recommended isopropanol over ethanol. And definitely recommended gasoline over gasahol (very hard to find gasoline without E10).

As for methanol/water injection, he highly recommended that over E85. Ethanol absorbs water like no other, and corrodes many different materials.

IDK yall, I've been loving my E30 tune. But this is just some food for thought. As for my build motor boosted NA miata, I was on the fence about E85 but not anymore. From my understanding, the only time a car should be run on full E85 is if you know the fuel will be spent in a very short time, to reduce water absorption.

 

[alexrex20]

Jason posted how he did this himself, used Regular but went slightly higher on the E to e35 and his tunes run fine that way,

Uh that actually proves that E content does add octane rating.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Ford ST]

Here's the deal you have someone asking about E30 I was just trying to give him the right information and let him know the E30 mixes you get at the pump are not adequate. That type of E30 is meant for flex fuel vehicles not for performance gains as it's mixed with regular fuel. You then responded by saying the octane rating doesn't really matter it's just the cooling effect of ethanol that's simply not true.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[danbfree]

Okay I'm specifically talking about mixing E30 with 87. I don't want people who are going to run a E30 tune to think that is okay because it is not. That is not what E30 Tunes are made for.

And my point was just to show how octane isn't the main factor in an e30 tune's performance factor over a 93 tune. Simply put, it's the cooling effect ethanol has that allows for higher boost and more aggressive timing... so yes, as far as my Dizzy tune, it's only looking for at least 93 octane to max out it's performance, the difference over a regular 93 tune is that the ethanol allows the more aggressive boost and timing. For me, that can be achieved running e40 with 87, although just not 100% ideal, it's completely safe.. Now different tuners may tune for a higher octane, just saying for my specific tune it's a good example to show how octane isn't the *main* factor in an e30 tunes gains.

 

[danbfree]

So after speaking with my Chem 2 Professor, who is pretty well researched into fuels and combustibles, I have been informed that E85 isn't really the best fuel. In fact, he says it is a horrible fuel. Toluene or xylene? (I think) he recommends as better octane boosters than ethanol. He even recommended isopropanol over ethanol. And definitely recommended gasoline over gasahol (very hard to find gasoline without E10).

As for methanol/water injection, he highly recommended that over E85. Ethanol absorbs water like no other, and corrodes many different materials.

IDK yall, I've been loving my E30 tune. But this is just some food for thought. As for my build motor boosted NA miata, I was on the fence about E85 but not anymore. From my understanding, the only time a car should be run on full E85 is if you know the fuel will be spent in a very short time, to reduce water absorption.

It's definitely a matter of convenience and the bigger factor is the cooling/anti-knock properties of ethanol itself as long as you have a decent overall octane. How else could an e30 tune max out on 93 octane and still have such nice gains over a 93 tune?

 

[danbfree]

Uh that actually proves that E content does add octane rating.

Sorry you're not getting my point... The point is I'm at "only" 93 total octane but still get massive gains on my e30 tune vs. running a regular 93 tune because of the cooling effect of ethanol. It's important for everyone to know WHERE the gains are coming from, it's not definitely not ONLY the added octane, but also definitely from the cooling properties of the ethanol itself too. Just like an intercooler upgrade doesn't add the power itself, it's because running cooler allows the tune to be more aggressive with less heat to begin with. So with e30, yes, you get a big octane boost but from there it can also be tuned more aggressively because the octane actually matters less in with a cooler environment so it's less likely to create knock in the first place. Just trying to help explain how the e30 tune works. Now, Jason's tune may only need a 93 total octane to max out his e30 tunes, but other tuners could definitely be tuning for a higher octane target, it's always good to ask questions and I did ahead of time on the FB group with him and my numbers all clearly show it's fine. i'm actually hoping he pushes the octane ratio higher once I dayalog, I'll take even more pwoer with the normal 96 octane e30 mix!

 

[Ford ST]

This is not how stratified sees it at all. They recommend mixing with premium fuel. I give up no point in arguing with you. I honestly can't believe how you don't understand how important of a role octane plays into this. Do you even understand what a octane rating is? Are you telling me that stratified does not know what they're talking about when they mention the octane?

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[danbfree]

This is not how stratified sees it at all. They recommend mixing with premium fuel. I give up no point in arguing with you. I honestly can't believe how you don't understand how important of a role octane plays into this. Do you even understand what a octane rating is? Are you telling me that stratified does not know what they're talking about when they mention the octane?

Never said it was recommended, Dizzy and Stratified definitely recommend mixing with premium... just saying ethanol has separate cooling qualities, separate from raising octane, to help tune more aggressively... All I know is I get a BIG power boost running 93 octane e35 on an e30 tune over 93 pump on 93 tune... Could be that the pump tune is super conservative and the e30 is more aggressive? Sure, but also saying that ethanol running your engine cooler, separate from just literal knock protection of the fuel in combustion, seems to be a big part in running a more aggressive tune to make more power. With it running cooler, it can be pushed more aggressively... Kind of like an intercooler, if you have an upgraded intercooler then you can tune more aggressively, the intercooler itself isn't adding the power, the tune is... This running cooler part isn't factored into the actual fuel octane, but instead is taken advantage of by the tuner to push more power as you have lower starting temps... I hope that makes sense, not trying to confuse anyone, just stating that there is more to it than JUST the octane of the fuel itself. It's like a 50/50 thing between higher octane and more aggressive tuning from lower temps.

 

[Woods247]

Soooo, I haven't gone E30. Am I missing out?

 

[danbfree]

Soooo, I haven't gone E30. Am I missing out?

Yes, absolutely worth it if you have e85 around and want a good boost of power.

 

[Woods247]

Yes, absolutely worth it if you have e85 around and want a good boost of power.

I do have it very close actually. Do you know if it’s safe for track use? I may consider it after an ethanol gauge is installed.

 

[alexrex20]

I have done a few track days on E30 and had no issues. The only problem might be if you have no E85 stations near the track.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[alexrex20]

The cooling effect of ethanol is marginal in terms of resistance to knock, compared to an increased octane rating, which coincidentally is the rating for a fuel's resistance to knock... Lol smh

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[danbfree]

The cooling effect of ethanol is marginal in terms of resistance to knock, compared to an increased octane rating, which coincidentally is the rating for a fuel's resistance to knock... Lol smh

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

No, the fuels octane and the temperature it's exposed to are two separate factors, period. It's basic tuning knowledge. At a lower environmental temperature, the fuels octane comes into play less, because it's not being pushed to it's limits yet, lol smh omg, what else can I put in here to be a condescending jerk back? Sorry, but it's clearly two separate factors.... I mean look, how can my 93 octane e35 mix clearly make a good 20 HP more than my 93 octane pump tune? Because at e35 you get a lower environmental temperature, the fuels octane doesn't come into play as much, it can be pushed further at the same octane before it ignites. That's how knock works, it's not all about the timing but the temperature exposed to as well, a 93 fuel will knock sooner exposed to a higher temp than under the same timing at a lower temp, again tuning basics here... If you guys all want to say that the only factor is the fuel octane, then feel free to live in ignorant bliss, I really don't care, but trying to spread it as fact is not cool.

 

[Ford ST]

Your E30 tune is more aggressive. If I had two exact batches of fuel one 93 pure gasoline, one 93 ethanol with the same exact tune I honestly think they would make the same amount of power. You have your opinion and you are allowed to have that. But when stratified builds a E30 tune based on a certain octane range I'm sorry I trust them a hundred thousand times more than you. stratified clearly mentions octane rating over and over again they have multiple blogs on their website with tuning information.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[Ford ST]

Octane and energy density are different things too.

Just gotta throw some gas on this fire hehe

Absolutely and ethanol has less energy than gasoline. Octane is simply resistance to knock.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk

 

[danbfree]

Your E30 tune is more aggressive. If I had two exact batches of fuel one 93 pure gasoline, one 93 ethanol with the same exact tune I honestly think they would make the same amount of power. You have your opinion and you are allowed to have that. But when stratified builds a E30 tune based on a certain octane range I'm sorry I trust them a hundred thousand times more than you. stratified clearly mentions octane rating over and over again they have multiple blogs on their website with tuning information.

First, Stratified obviously tunes for a certain octane on their e30, cool, never said anything to the contrary, I absolutely never claimed that octane is unimportant, I'm saying it's simply one half of the equation. All I'm saying is that it's a known thing that much of the reason to use ethanol is not just for the octane boost but the lower temps allow you to tune more aggressively, so you are flat out wrong that e10 93 has the same power potential as e35 93. The octane you have, no matter what it is, will perform better at a lower temp, it's basic car tuning science. Now true, the 93 tune is obviously less aggressive, but with the same octane fuel like I'm using now, it would make no sense for it to be THAT much less aggressive if octane was the only/main factor. Do you think they are leaving 15+ HP on the table with a 93 tune? No, it actually proves my point... If a 91 tune makes about 190 HP and a 93 tune makes about 195 (just using some very realistic numbers), if it was only octane that matters, why would a 96 octane e30 tune make like 215 HP and not like 200-205? Because they use the combination of octane and lower temps to tune in more boost and timing and fuel because of lower operating temps. This is basic car tuning knowledge. That's why my Dizzy 93 tune is ran at 24.75 psi and the e30 runs at 26, there is more temp overhead to work with. Sure, it's easy to just think about higher octane, and that's how Stratified sums it up in their article too, it's just that there is more to it than that, and that's my point, sometimes things are over-simplified by default so much that the full explanation becomes thought of as BS, like you guys think.

I'm just gonna leave it alone now, if you guys just want to talk in terms of only octane, like non-enthusiasts would, that's fine. I thought this was an enthusiast site where the science behind it can be handled in a little more in depth discussion, but I guess not... I'm happy to just enjoy the car with e35 at the same octane as premium 93 pump with more power because there are actual reasons more than just octane.

It's ALWAYS been described to me for 30 years of being an auto enthusiast that ethanol not only provides higher octane, but also keeps temps lower, that's why alcohol funny cars run pure alcohol not just high octane race gasoline.

 

[Ford ST]

I clearly said pure 93 as in hundred percent gasoline not E10. Why would you mentioned 96 octane when your are saying your E mix with regular is 93. Gas 93 is not going to make less power then E 93, ethanol 96 can make more power than gasoline 93. Because it's freaking 96 octane.

Sent from my LG-LS997 using Tapatalk