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TUNE+ : New turbo upgrade coming, and you don't need to provide a core...
- Thread starter Tune+
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Thanks for confirming it is indeed the HPFP. I'm sorry i missed that post somewhere. The real kick in the nuts is finding a vendor to replace the pump. When i was a MazdaSpeed driver, we had the option to swap the pumps internals to deal with this issue. But even then it took years to find a reliable vendor for said internals. A lot of guys suffered a lot of failures before a good kit was found. But in the end it was easier to tune, easier for the end user to install, and way more cost effective than a full-on aux fuel setup. AND dealers were clueless 
Perhaps Tune+ wants to take on the challenge of 1) finding out if our pumps can even be modded and 2) finding reliable internals to swap into the oem pump. Or have you already done the leg work and hit a dead end, hence the Tune+ aux fuel setup?
Perhaps Tune+ wants to take on the challenge of 1) finding out if our pumps can even be modded and 2) finding reliable internals to swap into the oem pump. Or have you already done the leg work and hit a dead end, hence the Tune+ aux fuel setup?
Hi,
I post same question on other thread, and I would have Adam advice on this :
I will get only 91octane, no aux fuel, so 91octane tune only.
Will I get a better result with a stage2+ MF VTT instead of a stage2 VTT ?
Fuel won't it be the bottleneck that will not make difference between the small and the big VTTs ?
Thank you.
I post same question on other thread, and I would have Adam advice on this :
I will get only 91octane, no aux fuel, so 91octane tune only.
Will I get a better result with a stage2+ MF VTT instead of a stage2 VTT ?
Fuel won't it be the bottleneck that will not make difference between the small and the big VTTs ?
Thank you.
Some info on the Garrett GT2554 turbo which comes with the MRX kit. It is extremely old technology at this point. It uses poor flowing 11 blade turbine wheels, and cast compressor wheels. Couple that with a the large .63 AR turbine housing, and sure you have an upgrade that can make some additional power, and is reliable, but it will be laggy, and far from efficient. Our offering will be much more efficient, spool very close to stock, and support more power than a Garrett GT2554. We happen to have some old (NOS) GT2554 parts laying around, as we sometimes buy them to just use the internals, and throw the wheels away (yes that is how much we think of this particular combo). Few pictures, and also weights of the rotating assembly, Our stage 2 is about 25% lighter. This nets better spool, and transient response.
The Garrett GT2554 is rated at 270hp to the crank, we have seen our Stage 2, and 2+ make 350WHP per turbo on 3.0l BMW Twin turbo applications. This is why we have rated them as we did. There is nothing wrong with the Garrett GT2554, but its a very old turbo (released in 2009 I believe) that Garrett still offers at a cheap price.
The Garrett GT2554 is rated at 270hp to the crank, we have seen our Stage 2, and 2+ make 350WHP per turbo on 3.0l BMW Twin turbo applications. This is why we have rated them as we did. There is nothing wrong with the Garrett GT2554, but its a very old turbo (released in 2009 I believe) that Garrett still offers at a cheap price.
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So they mismatch a large 11 blade compressor to that old school 11 blade turbine wheel. Then put a large compressor housing on it. That's the extent of the modifications. They still use a Garrett GT25 .63 AR housing which is large, and will not be very responsive, as turbine AR has a very large effect on turbocharger operation.
I hate to bring facts into this, but changing the compressor cover, has the least effect of any possible change to a turbocharger. Going larger at times, is actually worse then sticking with a small compressor cover on high boost applications which most all new vehicles including the Fiesta ST are.
I will let Garrett's own words speak to that. Link: https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbine_housing_AR_and_housing_sizing
"The A/R parameter has different effects on the compressor and turbine performance, as outlined below.
Compressor A/R - Compressor performance is comparatively insensitive to changes in A/R. Larger A/R housings are sometimes used to optimize performance of low boost applications, and smaller A/R are used for high boost applications. However, as this influence of A/R on compressor performance is minor, there are not A/R options available for compressor housings."
"Turbine A/R - Turbine performance is greatly affected by changing the A/R of the housing, as it is used to adjust the flow capacity of the turbine. Using a smaller A/R will increase the exhaust gas velocity into the turbine wheel. This provides increased turbine power at lower engine speeds, resulting in a quicker boost rise. However, a small A/R also causes the flow to enter the wheel more tangentially, which reduces the ultimate flow capacity of the turbine wheel. This will tend to increase exhaust backpressure and hence reduce the engine's ability to "breathe" effectively at high RPM, adversely affecting peak engine power.
Conversely, using a larger A/R will lower exhaust gas velocity, and delay boost rise. The flow in a larger A/R housing enters the wheel in a more radial fashion, increasing the wheel's effective flow capacity, resulting in lower backpressure and better power at higher engine speeds.
When deciding between A/R options, be realistic with the intended vehicle use and use the A/R to bias the performance toward the desired powerband characteristic."
I hate to bring facts into this, but changing the compressor cover, has the least effect of any possible change to a turbocharger. Going larger at times, is actually worse then sticking with a small compressor cover on high boost applications which most all new vehicles including the Fiesta ST are.
I will let Garrett's own words speak to that. Link: https://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/turbine_housing_AR_and_housing_sizing
"The A/R parameter has different effects on the compressor and turbine performance, as outlined below.
Compressor A/R - Compressor performance is comparatively insensitive to changes in A/R. Larger A/R housings are sometimes used to optimize performance of low boost applications, and smaller A/R are used for high boost applications. However, as this influence of A/R on compressor performance is minor, there are not A/R options available for compressor housings."
"Turbine A/R - Turbine performance is greatly affected by changing the A/R of the housing, as it is used to adjust the flow capacity of the turbine. Using a smaller A/R will increase the exhaust gas velocity into the turbine wheel. This provides increased turbine power at lower engine speeds, resulting in a quicker boost rise. However, a small A/R also causes the flow to enter the wheel more tangentially, which reduces the ultimate flow capacity of the turbine wheel. This will tend to increase exhaust backpressure and hence reduce the engine's ability to "breathe" effectively at high RPM, adversely affecting peak engine power.
Conversely, using a larger A/R will lower exhaust gas velocity, and delay boost rise. The flow in a larger A/R housing enters the wheel in a more radial fashion, increasing the wheel's effective flow capacity, resulting in lower backpressure and better power at higher engine speeds.
When deciding between A/R options, be realistic with the intended vehicle use and use the A/R to bias the performance toward the desired powerband characteristic."
If by guessing you mean posting exactly what is on the companies website, along with my extensive knowledge of the Garrett line up, then sure I am guessing. Actually I am posting facts by Garrett, and facts posted by the maker of that kit. We are not in the guessing business. I can see by your sig you are defending something you already purchased, as for the last thing you say. Not sure where that comes in to anything, if that is in reference to our upcoming unit, it would appear you either did not read what the unit actually is, or right now you are guessing. As our unit will not use stock internals, it wont use stock anything, except stock appearing. Everything else is cast for us. Either way, seem to have struck a nerve with the guys running old school turbine wheels. Sorry about that!
I still remember when you got behind a companies baseless claims that went out of business right after that, taking thousands of customer dollars with them. Its obvious you are simply a hater. We actually love haters, they keep our posts at the top of the page... We appreciate it!
I still remember when you got behind a companies baseless claims that went out of business right after that, taking thousands of customer dollars with them. Its obvious you are simply a hater. We actually love haters, they keep our posts at the top of the page... We appreciate it!
The fact the 2554 has been around a while could be considered a good thing as it's a known commodity with a proven track record. The MRX kit seems to be exceeding initial expectations and so far the people who've put them on seem to be happy with their decision, for the most part.
Personally, I don't want to lose the quick spool. I absolutely love the quick response the FiST offers, both when tipping into the throttle and in handling, and don't want to mess that up. I'm anxious to see how this Vargas offering turns out.
Personally, I don't want to lose the quick spool. I absolutely love the quick response the FiST offers, both when tipping into the throttle and in handling, and don't want to mess that up. I'm anxious to see how this Vargas offering turns out.
OP
Thread Starter
#238
Thread Starter
#238
Guesses? All the data Tony provided is public knowledge of the GT2554R, the fact that the MRX has an upgraded compressor wheel in it doesn't change it's lack of performance. You have the turbo yourself and you are unhappy. To date, I have tuned 4 MRX kits, and each one has not performed better than any of the GT2554R's we have tuned from ATP. If you take a second and do some searching on the GT2554R you will see we were the first one to break 300whp with it and it took methanol and ethanol to get it there. Comparing logs from the MRX to the GT2554R that made 300whp there is zero difference in power output. The airflow is the same (for those of you that think that airmass calculated instead of an actual measurement is a realistic way to measure turbo performance), the power output is the same boost for boost.
So even though Tony isn't tuning these, I am and I have other results to compare it to. It isn't rocket science to know what compressor wheel is being used. You don't actually think Mountune is machining these turbo's themselves and making the compressor wheel do you? Being 10-blade tells me that is sounds like they used an off the shelf compressor wheel, more than likely from KTS (http://www.ktsturbobilletx.com/) all someone would have to do is take off the compressor cover and measure the inducer and exducer to confirm. I'm guessing it is a 2860R wheel 10+0, PN#2806, 12.02 Nose ID, 42.20 Inducer, 60.40 Exducer, 64.07 Extended Tip Exducer, 4.17 Extended Tip Height. If anyone wants to confirm my suspicion and has a MRX laying around get your calipers and confirm the measurements I provided above. It would be the easiest combination to get into the GT2554R and just swapping the compressor cover to a GT2860 style cover, which I also I'm assuming (again, no proof just lots of experience with turbo manufacturing). I'm assuming is a ZAGE compressor cover, just another Chinese casted housing which they can machine to whatever wheel you want. (www.zageturbo.com).
So, facts or not, it isn't hard to dissect a turbo. Why is it so hush hush anyways? The full specs of what Vargas is assembling is all right here in this post...
Beyond that, your only combat everytime is "look up BMW failures" yea, well the only thing people need to do is go back to the first time you said that and where I outlined that nearly every factory frame turbo upgrade for the BMW had issues, similar ones at that, and guess which company is currently the only one still around and pushed through the issues and came up with a resolution? Vargas. Nearly every stock frame big power BMW out there is running a Vargas turbo. Simple as that.
A lot easier to take a turbo that someone makes and force it onto a car. Instead of making a turbo from scratch that is properly suited for the vehicle it is being made for. The GT2554R is not a proper turbo for the 1.6L, just look at the results from the "manufacturer" themselves, 4600rpm peak torque on the MRX on the graphs they are using for marketing. That is not a desirable turbo for a car that is meant to be torquey down low and "quick" up top. This isn't a realistic 400whp+ car, and I don't think anyone buys the Fiesta initially to make it that. 90% of the people like the torque it makes but the higher RPM leaves a lot to be desired. So why not deliver both, instead of just coming up with something to sell something?
As far as "shitting on a giant in the industry". Nobody is shitting on anyone, Garrett's turbo's off the shelf are all great, they just need to be selected correctly when putting on a car. And Garrett is not the manufacturer of this turbo, so nobody is saying anything about them. If Garrett though the GT2554R would be a good candidate for a compressor wheel upgrade there would be a GTX2554R variant just like the rest of the turbos they once offered, and are now eligible for an upgrade.
Vargas says Garrett is his favorite turbo manufacturer nearly weekly. I swear everytime we talk about the GTX3076R he gets a raging hard-on.
Just because it has been around awhile doesn't mean that a lot of people are using it. Ideally this turbo should be used in pairs for a small displacement v6, say 3.2L and under. The turbine housing is way to big for a small displacement 4cyl, especially a 1.6L. As far as it exceeding initial expectations, I couldn't disagree more. The one person with constant complaining in all turbo threads (RE-RX7) dislikes his turbo, and the others that we have tuned all feel the turbo should be much more, especially in the top end. We have gotten the fastest spool out of the MRX compared to the other results I have seen posted (24psi at 3900rpm), but it immediately dives just like the factory turbo. Why, because a chinese wastegate was used and has a super low base spring. If I was part of the MRX development, the very first thing I would have noticed when tuning is that it needed a stronger wastegate. I wouldn't have even released it with the wastegate it has. The performance gained from just a wastegate would have been tremendous and they are just now looking to offer a fix AFTER the fact.
However, throwing a wastegate on isn't going to fix all of the boost taper. We ran a 18psi wastegate on a GT2554R and it still died down to 18-19psi up top, with a peak psi of 26psi. Now, the MRX does have an upgraded compressor wheel but unfortunately if it is the size I mentioned above (60.4 ex) the turbine wheel it is paired with isn't going to get the compressor wheel up to the proper shaft speed to actually get it to perform and move some air. That is what Vargas was referencing when he said "mis-matched wheel". If you have a high speed compressor wheel, and a low speed turbine wheel, you are just going to run the turbo in surgeline and it is going to have a hardtime making power. Additionally you have reliability issues because there is more force from one wheel versus the other, you need to have proper thrust load from both the turbine wheel and the compressor wheel so you don't ride along the thrust bearing inside the turbo. Ride on it long enough and you'll seize the turbine wheel right to the bearing. No Bueno.
So even though Tony isn't tuning these, I am and I have other results to compare it to. It isn't rocket science to know what compressor wheel is being used. You don't actually think Mountune is machining these turbo's themselves and making the compressor wheel do you? Being 10-blade tells me that is sounds like they used an off the shelf compressor wheel, more than likely from KTS (http://www.ktsturbobilletx.com/) all someone would have to do is take off the compressor cover and measure the inducer and exducer to confirm. I'm guessing it is a 2860R wheel 10+0, PN#2806, 12.02 Nose ID, 42.20 Inducer, 60.40 Exducer, 64.07 Extended Tip Exducer, 4.17 Extended Tip Height. If anyone wants to confirm my suspicion and has a MRX laying around get your calipers and confirm the measurements I provided above. It would be the easiest combination to get into the GT2554R and just swapping the compressor cover to a GT2860 style cover, which I also I'm assuming (again, no proof just lots of experience with turbo manufacturing). I'm assuming is a ZAGE compressor cover, just another Chinese casted housing which they can machine to whatever wheel you want. (www.zageturbo.com).
So, facts or not, it isn't hard to dissect a turbo. Why is it so hush hush anyways? The full specs of what Vargas is assembling is all right here in this post...
Beyond that, your only combat everytime is "look up BMW failures" yea, well the only thing people need to do is go back to the first time you said that and where I outlined that nearly every factory frame turbo upgrade for the BMW had issues, similar ones at that, and guess which company is currently the only one still around and pushed through the issues and came up with a resolution? Vargas. Nearly every stock frame big power BMW out there is running a Vargas turbo. Simple as that.
A lot easier to take a turbo that someone makes and force it onto a car. Instead of making a turbo from scratch that is properly suited for the vehicle it is being made for. The GT2554R is not a proper turbo for the 1.6L, just look at the results from the "manufacturer" themselves, 4600rpm peak torque on the MRX on the graphs they are using for marketing. That is not a desirable turbo for a car that is meant to be torquey down low and "quick" up top. This isn't a realistic 400whp+ car, and I don't think anyone buys the Fiesta initially to make it that. 90% of the people like the torque it makes but the higher RPM leaves a lot to be desired. So why not deliver both, instead of just coming up with something to sell something?
As far as "shitting on a giant in the industry". Nobody is shitting on anyone, Garrett's turbo's off the shelf are all great, they just need to be selected correctly when putting on a car. And Garrett is not the manufacturer of this turbo, so nobody is saying anything about them. If Garrett though the GT2554R would be a good candidate for a compressor wheel upgrade there would be a GTX2554R variant just like the rest of the turbos they once offered, and are now eligible for an upgrade.
Vargas says Garrett is his favorite turbo manufacturer nearly weekly. I swear everytime we talk about the GTX3076R he gets a raging hard-on.
Just because it has been around awhile doesn't mean that a lot of people are using it. Ideally this turbo should be used in pairs for a small displacement v6, say 3.2L and under. The turbine housing is way to big for a small displacement 4cyl, especially a 1.6L. As far as it exceeding initial expectations, I couldn't disagree more. The one person with constant complaining in all turbo threads (RE-RX7) dislikes his turbo, and the others that we have tuned all feel the turbo should be much more, especially in the top end. We have gotten the fastest spool out of the MRX compared to the other results I have seen posted (24psi at 3900rpm), but it immediately dives just like the factory turbo. Why, because a chinese wastegate was used and has a super low base spring. If I was part of the MRX development, the very first thing I would have noticed when tuning is that it needed a stronger wastegate. I wouldn't have even released it with the wastegate it has. The performance gained from just a wastegate would have been tremendous and they are just now looking to offer a fix AFTER the fact.
However, throwing a wastegate on isn't going to fix all of the boost taper. We ran a 18psi wastegate on a GT2554R and it still died down to 18-19psi up top, with a peak psi of 26psi. Now, the MRX does have an upgraded compressor wheel but unfortunately if it is the size I mentioned above (60.4 ex) the turbine wheel it is paired with isn't going to get the compressor wheel up to the proper shaft speed to actually get it to perform and move some air. That is what Vargas was referencing when he said "mis-matched wheel". If you have a high speed compressor wheel, and a low speed turbine wheel, you are just going to run the turbo in surgeline and it is going to have a hardtime making power. Additionally you have reliability issues because there is more force from one wheel versus the other, you need to have proper thrust load from both the turbine wheel and the compressor wheel so you don't ride along the thrust bearing inside the turbo. Ride on it long enough and you'll seize the turbine wheel right to the bearing. No Bueno.
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If you want to upgrade the turbine, it would be extremely simple. They make that same turbine housing in GT28 size, I have spare GT28 genuine Garrett turbines sitting here from turbos we bought, and robbed the internals out of. Depending on the size of the compressor they use. It would be very easy to upgrade your unit to say GTX2860 spec, GTX2863 or GTX2867 spec. We have all those wheels in stock. Response will suffer, but it would hold boost nicely up top. If you are interested drop us an email we can gladly quote you for the conversion.
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