Choosing brakes for AutoX and HPDE

[trahma]

I'm trying to look into my options for brakes and trying to decide the best route for me to go.

I'm currently considering the following for this year:
Wilwood Front BBK + Stainless Steel lines:
* Pros: Should provide better stopping power
* Cons: Price, I've heard about caliper warping issues under high speed hard braking, not touching rears

RS-R Brake Upgrade Kit
* Pros: Cost, upgrading front and rear
* Cons: Worse stopping power, will probably upgrade later

I'm hoping to get into doing a fair amount of road racing this year with Grid Life and local events. I'm curious to hear what people that have gone through this have experienced.

 

[spoon]

Carbotech XP-10.

I have used these pads for a couple of track days and I also street them too, stock rotors, Stoptech lines. Highly recommend. Ymmv with the noise though. They are quiet for me on the street, but I have read for some people they squeal pretty loud.

They dust alot, but my wheels are easy to wipe down. Compressed air can blow them off as well. If the dust gets wet, be prepared to use some elbow grease to get it off. I wipe my wheels every day pretty much.

 

[mercdank]

I did some research on this a while back and contact Hawk because it seems the Mountune brake packages are just rebranded hawk pads, so I was trying to get info as to which ones they were exactly. After some back and forth the Hawk rep and I ended up settling on the below as the best compromise for street-ability and track/autocross use.

Hawk Performance HB725R.650 / High Performance Street/Race / Front Axle - $117.30
Hawk Performance HB430N.547 / HP Plus / Rear / Motorsports Pads - $100.73
Stainless Steel Brake Lines - $100.25 Pumaspeed or other
High Performance Brake Fluid - RESEARCH PENDING (ATE Blue Racing Brake Fluid)

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^The Ate Racing Blue fluid is getting harder and harder to find in this country due to the NHSTA/DOT ban on it because of the blue dye in it.

The Ate Typ 200 Gold fluid is the SAME EXACT THING spec/quality-wise as the Racing Blue, just sans the dye.
it IS very good stuff, even though it may not have the sky-high dry and wet boiling points of the pure racing fluids, it DOES last longer for street use, and does not take on moisture as quickly as the pure racing brake fluids do by nature.

It is also less than half the price (in some cases 1/3 the price or less) of the 'liquid gold' priced, pure racing, very high boiling point fluids (some are OVER $80.00 USD a liter! ).

 

[Solort]

Carbotech AX6 is a great Autox with little heat needed to work well with great bite, good modulation, and lots of black dust. Not sure how they would hold up for road racing with the higher temps...

 

[tiggerbren]

Carbotech AX6 is a great Autox with little heat needed to work well with great bite, good modulation, and lots of black dust. Not sure how they would hold up for road racing with the higher temps...

just ordered a set of these myself. The XP8 pads were recommended but the operating temp range on the AX6 made a lot more sense for autox.

 

[Solort]

just ordered a set of these myself. The XP8 pads were recommended but the operating temp range on the AX6 made a lot more sense for autox.

They dust like a MF but they have a TON of bite and easy to modulate for threshold braking. You will love them!

 

[M-Sport fan]

Carbotech AX6 is a great Autox with little heat needed to work well with great bite, good modulation, and lots of black dust. Not sure how they would hold up for road racing with the higher temps...

I plan on going to the G-Loc version of these at the first change (for the fronts at least, and maybe their 1521 equivalent for the backs).

I am amazed at how many run the XP8s/10s on the STREET, year 'round, daily driven.
I know that Carbotech's description 'copy' says that they have very strong (even stone cold ) initial bite, but even in the middle of a northern winter at the first stop on the street?!?!?! (They need NO HEAT AT ALL in them to work safely???)

They ARE still listed by Carbotech as a track racing compound pad, after all.

 

[awwwww_shift]

Fluid: Castrol SRF (just do it, you'll never look back)
Pads: Hawk 5.0's on the front for the street/autox and {insert track compound here} (seriously, your style and setup will dictate these moreso than anything else)
Lines: braided stainless lines are nice, but not really necessary on most modern cars til you start looking at BBKs or swapping calipers(newer lines are braided inside, but rubber coated for durability) yes there is a slight difference in rigidity between the stocks vs the braided lines, but until you're really threshold braking on the regular, you're not going to notice the difference.

BBKs are nice, but keep in mind classing and what may result from bolting on something like that. Also, research wheel fitment, if you have a wheel/tire package you're trying to build around, some BBKs won't play well with smaller wheels.(i'm working on this one... )

 

[Joker328]

I plan on going to the G-Loc version of these at the first change (for the fronts at least, and maybe their 1521 equivalent for the backs).

I am amazed at how many run the XP8s/10s on the STREET, year 'round, daily driven.
I know that Carbotech's description 'copy' says that they have very strong (even stone cold ) initial bite, but even in the middle of a northern winter at the first stop on the street?!?!?! (They need NO HEAT AT ALL in them to work safely???)

They ARE still listed by Carbotech as a track racing compound pad, after all.

Curious about this myself. Remember a lot of people on the forum live in the South or Southwest where they don't really see freezing temps, and most of the year is temperate to hot. A compound that might have good initial bite at 75 degrees might not at 30 degrees.

 

[trahma]

Fluid: Castrol SRF (just do it, you'll never look back)
Pads: Hawk 5.0's on the front for the street/autox and {insert track compound here} (seriously, your style and setup will dictate these moreso than anything else)
Lines: braided stainless lines are nice, but not really necessary on most modern cars til you start looking at BBKs or swapping calipers(newer lines are braided inside, but rubber coated for durability) yes there is a slight difference in rigidity between the stocks vs the braided lines, but until you're really threshold braking on the regular, you're not going to notice the difference.

BBKs are nice, but keep in mind classing and what may result from bolting on something like that. Also, research wheel fitment, if you have a wheel/tire package you're trying to build around, some BBKs won't play well with smaller wheels.(i'm working on this one... )

Wheel fitment is a concern of mine. At this point I'm leaning on the Mountune setup because for $300 it seems like a reasonable setup and then I'll look to fix my engine cooling issues I experienced last year. Appreciate the tip on the fluid, that was one that I had on my list.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Fluid: Castrol SRF (just do it, you'll never look back)

I know that the SRF has about a 100*F higher WET boiling point than the Torque RT700 (and even more of a superior wet boiling point difference to all of the other pure racing brake fluids), but how do they compare otherwise, given that they both have to be flushed fairly often anyway, being real racing (and not 'street') fluids?

 

[awwwww_shift]

I know that the SRF has about a 100*F higher WET boiling point than the Torque RT700 (and even more of a superior wet boiling point difference to all of the other pure racing brake fluids), but how do they compare otherwise, given that they both have to be flushed fairly often anyway, being real racing (and not 'street') fluids?

Personally, I care more about the wet number than the dry number, as there will always be moisture in the system(no matter how good of a flush you do).

As for the "flushing" process, I flush once at the beginning of the season, then bleed all 4 corners as needed(usually before an HPDE weekend). This has proven effective for a lot of my friends who have converted over as well...

The other similar fluid to SRF on my radar currently is the Endless SR650. Specs out similar to the SRF and has the same pro racing pedigree with a lot of endurance racing and F1(and WRC) teams basically using either interchangeably in their programs.

Hope that helps.

 

[M-Sport fan]

Personally, I care more about the wet number than the dry number, as there will always be moisture in the system(no matter how good of a flush you do).

VERY good point!

The other similar fluid to SRF on my radar currently is the Endless SR650. Specs out similar to the SRF

According to the charts I was looking at, the SR650 has an even lower wet B.P. than RT700, let alone the SRF.

 

[awwwww_shift]

VERY good point!



According to the charts I was looking at, the SR650 has an even lower wet B.P. than RT700, let alone the SRF.

It's a growing issue that the torque branded fluids have been oversold and under delivering. If cost is an issue, seek out ProSpeed fluids. I was using that before swapping to SRF.

The torque fluids just leave me questioning buisness practices...

http://www.ft86club.com/forums/showthread.php?p=2882533

[copy]
I spoke to Gene Mahan, the owner of Prospeed Motorsport, and I have some information that will be helpful to the forum and can shed some light on what exactly happened with Torque RT700. Gene was a business partner with Michael Wachholz and together they created the Torque RT700 brand and marketed the product. Gene's role was primarily as a financial backer, while Michael was responsible for sales, marketing, and running the business day-to-day. According to Gene, he became aware that Michael was not acting ethically, was marketing the product with fraudulent claims, and was failing to fulfill customer orders, and he decided to terminate his financial involvement in the business. Michael then seized their inventory of 45 cases of brake fluid and claimed that it never existed or had already been sold. It appears that at this point he continued to take customer and distributor money, but failed to fulfill a substantial number of orders. Police reports were filed and there's currently an arrest warrant for Michael Wachholz in the state of Colorado, and it's suspected that he's fled the state. Crazy story, huh?

Gene told me that neither Torque, Inc. or Prospeed Motorsport manufacture the product, but that it's made under contract by a third party and that RT700 and RS683 are, in fact, the same exact fluid - although Prospeed Motorsport RS683 sells for considerably less than Torque RT700. The discrepancies in the wet and dry boiling points between the two fluids was one of the ways that Gene initially caught Michael making fraudulent claims, which he found while reviewing the specifications from the manufacturer. He said he's marketed RS683 with accurate specifications, but there still seems to be an inconsistency on the front label regarding dry boiling point. He also said that even with the lower wet and dry boiling points the fluid is exceptional and has some very unique properties - which has been borne out by extensive testing by @CounterSpace Garage here on this forum.

For people like myself who have used and liked Torque RT700, Prospeed Motorsport RS683 is an excellent direct replacement. I suggested that Gene talk with @CounterSpace Garage to see if they would like to distribute or sell RS683, and he seemed very interested at the suggestion - particularly because they had so much direct experience with the product when marketed as RT700. @CounterSpace Garage, if you're interested please PM me and I can give you Gene's mobile number and e-mail address.

No doubt, it's a crazy story - I wanted to share it with the forum and I hope it was helpful to those that wondered what the hell happened to Torque RT700![paste]

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^Yes, I've heard part of that story (thanks for filling in the details and giving the WHOLE story! ).

I may just finally go with the SRF when I do the first flush of the system, despite Torque's marketing copy that it lacks sufficient 'reserve alkalinity' (which they would have one believe is comparable to having a super high starting TBN in a motor oil?) as compared to their RT700 (or the Prospeed 683 as you pointed out).

Certainly, NO ONE has yet to beat (or even come close to) that unbelievable WET boiling point of the SRF!!

 

[spoon]

EDIT: Sorry! I missed the info just above!

Both Torque RT700 and Prospeed RS683 are poured at the same place, probably the exact same fluid too. Business practice aside, a good fluid is a good fluid. Either one you can get your hands on will be awesome. At Sonoma last week, all the fastest guys were using RT700/RS683. Other fast guys were using SRF. Seemed quite arbitrary... but from what I read is that the RT700/RS683 has better compressibility and alkalinity (I am probably butchering it, but it's something along these lines) ratings than SRF, meaning it can survive more heat cycles.

I don't know the engineering behind it, but I'm sure we can't go wrong with either of the three fluids. FWIW, RT700/RS683 is an American fluid, if anyone cares about such things. SRF is not made in America.

About "wet boiling point", isn't that the boiling point at which the brake fluid is considered "saturated"? If I am understanding correctly, my brake fluid is never going to come to that point particularly when I am flushing after every track day. If you plan to never flush your fluid for an entire year let's say, and only plan to open the bleeder screws every once in a while to get new fluid in the calipers, then sure, wet boiling point should be a huge consideration for you, but also consider that you will not reach that point for a considerable amount of time (one year? longer?). But if you are tracking your car, you really should be flushing your fluid often, and not allowing it to become "wet" in the first place. Just my thoughts, but I do understand that maybe not everyone is interested in performing a fluid flush more than once per year.

 

[awwwww_shift]

About "wet boiling point", isn't that the boiling point at which the brake fluid is considered "saturated"? If I am understanding correctly, my brake fluid is never going to come to that point particularly when I am flushing after every track day. If you plan to never flush your fluid for an entire year let's say, and only plan to open the bleeder screws every once in a while to get new fluid in the calipers, then sure, wet boiling point should be a huge consideration for you, but also consider that you will not reach that point for a considerable amount of time (one year? longer?). But if you are tracking your car, you really should be flushing your fluid often, and not allowing it to become "wet" in the first place. Just my thoughts, but I do understand that maybe not everyone is interested in performing a fluid flush more than once per year.

If you flush your system for each track day(or weekend), you're throwing money away on a street car. Yes it is piece-of-mind, but at what point does the bleeding of SRF become less than flushing with other options? Trust me, I did what you are describing for years. Then when I crunched the numbers, and had other fellow track-junkies tell me of the maintenance they do with SRF vs other racing fluids, I was sold. I'd spring for a case of Motul 600 or 660 or ATE 200 or super blue for a season. Now I'll use 2-3 bottles of SRF a season, and the cost is much less...

I'm pretty sure the Endless fluid is slightly less expensive than the SRF as well.

As far as the wet vs dry boiling point, there's moisture in the air, as well as in the system already. So as much as you try to clean all the old fluid out, there will always be at least 0.1% moisture in the system. Just sayin...

 

[spoon]

Good points [MENTION=6424]awwwww_shift[/MENTION]. Do you think the higher dry boiling temp the RT700/RS683 might be "worth it" to the people that value it? Agreed, chasing that will not be cheap. SRF seems like the better choice for longevity sake.

I flush after track days currently, because I use RBF600 and I boil it every time, so I have to. If I am throwing away money then so be it... I need to stop, fast. And I'm not going to drive slower just to save my fluid, right? So it is my hopes though, that this will not happen with RT700/RS683, and I may be able to stretch the fluid for two or three track days. Or maybe even longer, like six months and 5 or 6 track days you think? Obviously the same should be expected of SRF.

In the end, are you saying that 0.1% moisture content in a newly flushed brake system makes the wet boiling point the only specification worth considering, and the dry boiling point basically a useless spec? Not trying to be a jerk I am totally just trying to learn as much as I can and compare experiences. Thanks! :beer:


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Also, I am starting a new job in the city next month, will bike it to work every day. So the only driving my Fiesta will see from then on are track days, and the occasional trip to my parents place. No more daily w00t! With that said, I am sure SRF is the best all-around fluid for this purpose... but, I really want to know if I am wasting my time and money chasing the higher dry boiling point figure. Seems to be the case based on what you are telling me, but I'd like to keep pressing to make absolutely sure.

 

[awwwww_shift]

Good points [MENTION=6424]awwwww_shift[/MENTION]. Do you think the higher dry boiling temp the RT700/RS683 might be "worth it" to the people that value it? Agreed, chasing that will not be cheap. SRF seems like the better choice for longevity sake.

I flush after track days currently, because I use RBF600 and I boil it every time, so I have to. If I am throwing away money then so be it... I need to stop, fast. And I'm not going to drive slower just to save my fluid, right? So it is my hopes though, that this will not happen with RT700/RS683, and I may be able to stretch the fluid for two or three track days. Or maybe even longer, like six months and 5 or 6 track days you think? Obviously the same should be expected of SRF.

In the end, are you saying that 0.1% moisture content in a newly flushed brake system makes the wet boiling point the only specification worth considering, and the dry boiling point basically a useless spec? Not trying to be a jerk I am totally just trying to learn as much as I can and compare experiences. Thanks! :beer:


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Also, I am starting a new job in the city next month, will bike it to work every day. So the only driving my Fiesta will see from then on are track days, and the occasional trip to my parents place. No more daily w00t! With that said, I am sure SRF is the best all-around fluid for this purpose... but, I really want to know if I am wasting my time and money chasing the higher dry boiling point figure. Seems to be the case based on what you are telling me, but I'd like to keep pressing to make absolutely sure.

Since I have experience on the ProSpeed, I'd feel confident recommending that.
And totally agree with not driving slower, it's not in our DNA once we start chasing someone "faster"... lol Maybe depending on frequency of days, and how hard you're pushing things, a flush once every 3rd track weekend would be good to save a bit of work and money. Definitely a bleed at all 4 corners before each trip to the track is in order, and maybe a bleed between days if youre doing a weekend.

To the wet/dry thing... the inherent moisture doesn't make the dry number obsolete, but it should make the wet number more important in your search. The dry point will be a good starting point, but once you open the bottle, it creeps down a few degrees. Then when you pour it into the master cylinder(or bleeding vessel for those of us who power bleed) more moisture is introduced. so it's not optimum, but it's better than trusting the dry numbers exclusively...

Hope that helps. I'm not an authority on fluids, but I've definitely had enough HPDE, TT, auto-x, etc experience and enough close calls(or friends with) to narrow down the list of possibilities for vitals on a tracked vehicle. lol