I hate torque vectoring!!!1

[Kazz]

We have a very good idea how it works: http://technology.fordmedia.eu/documents/newsletter/FordTechnologyNewsletter092010.pdf (took me about 30 seconds and Google)

 

[spoon]

Your Google-fu is outstanding, Kazz. Believe me folks, outstanding Google-fu skills. It's the truth. Truly remarkable.

---

Okay so sweet, glad we know how it works. So, at the very least we know that the TVC will not cause damage to any components on our Fiestas when we track in the dry, if we are very careful and smooth with throttle inputs and never spin tires. Makes perfect sense given all the information and anecdotal evidence we have to date. This makes me feel better for future dry track days!

When tracking the Fiesta in the wet though, when wheel spin is less controllable, we will inevitably be frying our brakes and cooking our wheels. So basically, do not track these cars in the wet.

I'm glad I learned today how our TVC system works (thanks Kazz . And with that, I still find it frustrating and ridiculous that we cannot simply turn it off. We have to drive-around the nannie so as to not allow our cars to destroy themselves. As a manufacturer, this is not the scenario you want, for many reasons. There are plenty of folks who are not like Kazz, or are not like me or other folks who are smooth with their throttle inputs. There are many people who might track their cars in the wet like I did, when wheel spin is less controllable. And yeah, there are tons of folks out there who just stab the skinny pedal on every corner exit and light up the inner tire. I don't think it's good for the manufacturer to have these cars come back to the service department with fried brakes because the driver simply "didn't drive the car right".

I suppose in the end, our thoughts don't matter much to Ford. I've read the supplement. Ford covered their asses by disclaiming that track use can void manufacturer warranty on certain components anyway. So really, I would imagine the response from Ford when bringing your Fiesta into the service department with destroyed brakes to be, "well, looks like you didn't drive the car right."

Anyway sorry about the rant... looks like I will be unplugging some harnesses in the center console next track day. :thumbup:

 

[jeffreylyon]

If we had a wiring diagram we could just series in a switch to interrupt power to the accel. pack and turn off TV (and airbags) with a toggle throw. Having said that, I think that I'll just "fix" the problem with an LSD.

 

[ian.j]

If we had a wiring diagram we could just series in a switch to interrupt power to the accel. pack and turn off TV (and airbags) with a toggle throw. Having said that, I think that I'll just "fix" the problem with an LSD.

an lsd never fixed the problem for me. mine is getting its control unit removed along with the airbags. i am running a bit more power than standard and manage to cook and boil my bbk in 10 laps at my local track.

 

[jeffreylyon]

an lsd never fixed the problem for me. mine is getting its control unit removed along with the airbags. i am running a bit more power than standard and manage to cook and boil my bbk in 10 laps at my local track.

That's strange if TV happens on wheel spin... Whose LSD are you using?

 

[spoon]

That's strange if TV happens on wheel spin... Whose LSD are you using?

 

[jeffreylyon]

Duh - 1" away from where I was typing. Sorry. The Quaife is, in essence, a Torsen LSD, so very quick acting. [MENTION=608]ian.j[/MENTION] - did you cook both sides or was one noticeably hotter than the other? Is is possible that you're just really good at threshold braking and overcooked the brakes?

 

[Crooked Letta]

TVC a wondrous topic.

For those that don't know it basically works all the time. It has many different scenarios in which it plays into the driving experience. It also uses the rear brakes also . It is part of the stability program and you can bet part of the FiST's eagerness to turn in and let the rear hang out, TVC has something to do with that.

The best solution is to upgrade the brake system and fluid. If you think TVC is causing the brakes to overheat that is just a part of the problem. Like stated before I would also seriously look into air ducting for the brakes as well. This was a problem with the FoST as well but more so inadequate brakes(2 laps could melt everything). You can disable the TVC all you want but you are still beyond the limit of the brakes. I can assure you TVC does not load up the brakes nearly as close to anything you would do on a track (Think G forces and the loads you feel when braking vs TVC).

There really is no easy fix, this is a ST (HP1) not a HP2 (RS) or an Elite vehicle. TVC was created for a reason and things like a LSD and more hard parts are truly needed. It even works off throttle and brakes wheels individually so even hard parts wont do what TVC can in terms of changing vehicle dynamics with brake application.

My advice is solve the thermal capacity issue with the brakes and not worry about TVC. You can experiment though and something as simple as unplugging a wheel speed sensor should disable everything, if your ok with running no ESC threshold braking should not be an issue with no ABS.

 

[Zerodameaon]

Brake cooling is definitely in the plans, but the system will be installed with the express purpose of eliminating brake fade. I don't want to put a band-aid over the TVC.. I just want it gone. Know what I mean?

... The BBK and the CMB ducting to cool the brakes...

If you don't have CMBs kit he is no longer making them due to a weird lack of interest. If you got him to build you a set now I'm going to have to email him again.

My solution is just to weld a tube to the stock dust shields, it should work for you as well if you modify them to fit the BBK.

 

[ian.j]

i am already doing some ducting to help bring brake temps down, but the tvc needs to go along with the airbags. tvc is only there as its cheaper for ford than fitting an lsd. i always run with a long press on the esc and the tvc is still kicking in on the exit of the corners as the car fights for grip. maybe the bigger better brakes make the tvc system worse for me

 

[robbie_d]

I'm no expert so be kind in your replies please. This thread is all about TVC or "electronic differentials" cooking the front brakes. Maybe I missed something earlier in the conversation... but, what about the braking the car does on the inside wheel(s) to improve turn in / reduce understeer? I could see a wet day promoting more understeer, thus more computerized braking to dial it out.

I would say that TVC, as mentioned by Crooked Letta, only has a part in this issue. Other aspects are how tight the track is and how long the brakes have to cool between corners. Also, driving style and tire grip come into play. Cooling and brake upgrades seem to be the answer. I would think killing TVC would also disable the sporty rear end feel of our cars because it will disable all the fancy computer help. The OP seems to be guided more by anger than reason in this thread. I can see why because this was an expensive lesson. Still, how many people benefit from computerized braking vs those harmed? Any car on the track can and will have issues. Want a race car, buy a race car... Fiesta's are way too fun but not racers.

 

[M-Sport fan]

The IDEAL would be an on-off switch for this, which will TOTALLY disable the TVC, as well as the ESC, but maybe Ford is worried about legal ramifications, and hence would never give us that option??

On track at least, rear swaybar/swaybar settings, tire pressures, damper settings (IF adjustable), and even brake bias (IF a bias valve is installed in line) can make up for the rotation promoting benefits of the TVC system.

 

[SlowDunny]

Not sure if this has been mentioned or not but on my MazdaSpeed3 there was a steering wheel angle sensor, has anyone tried unplugging the FiST sensor and seeing the effects?

When guys with higher than stock HP/TQ would go around corners it would cut timing and you would get power loss instead of wheel spin. I don't even know if the FiST has this sensor but was just adding a new idea.

 

[KKaWing]

I'm no expert so be kind in your replies please. This thread is all about TVC or "electronic differentials" cooking the front brakes. Maybe I missed something earlier in the conversation... but, what about the braking the car does on the inside wheel(s) to improve turn in / reduce understeer? I could see a wet day promoting more understeer, thus more computerized braking to dial it out.

I would say that TVC, as mentioned by Crooked Letta, only has a part in this issue. Other aspects are how tight the track is and how long the brakes have to cool between corners. Also, driving style and tire grip come into play. Cooling and brake upgrades seem to be the answer. I would think killing TVC would also disable the sporty rear end feel of our cars because it will disable all the fancy computer help. The OP seems to be guided more by anger than reason in this thread. I can see why because this was an expensive lesson. Still, how many people benefit from computerized braking vs those harmed? Any car on the track can and will have issues. Want a race car, buy a race car... Fiesta's are way too fun but not racers.

There's a few layers to the TVC. First is the imitation limited slip front differential. To achieve that function, the car makes use of the ABS system to slow down the wheel that lost traction. What that does is force the torque back towards the wheel that has grip. For the most part, it works but here are the issues. 1.) Braking power is in the "thousands of horsepower" (figure of speech, brakes are way more powerful than the engines ability to spin the wheels for this purpose). As such, the brake is applied way to harshly, modern technology smoothed this out a bit, but in the end it was explained to me as "using thousands of HP to stop hundreds of HP". The system also severely cooks the front brakes in heavy canyon runs and track days. 2.) Torque Vectoring Control also works the rear brakes. It clamps the inside rear wheel and tucks the car into the turn. This helps the car be wonderfully neutral for street / canyon driving. Problems with this is the car is known to cook the rear brakes on the track with sport mode on.

 

[spoon]

To all that think TVC on the Fiesta ST is only active when wheel spin is detected, think again. That brochure Kazz kindly linked us to does not tell the entire story.

I heard and felt my TVC activate today on a low speed "cloverleaf-style" freeway off-ramp. It was a right hand 270 degree turn, my speed was approximately 25mph. I currently have Carbotech XP-10 brake pads installed, and I heard the passenger front squealing for a whole second, and I felt the car "rotate".

Why Ford assumes I need my car to rotate while taking a cloverleaf-style freeway off-ramp at mundane speeds is definitely a head scratcher and further validates our concerns that Ford should provide us the ability to defeat TVC. My brakes are being eaten up for nothing it seems, and the track use is downright abusive on them, much more than it needs to be thanks to TVC of course.

Lots of good discussion here! And yes [MENTION=5747]robbie_d[/MENTION], a wee bit angry! [emoji14]

 

[Crooked Letta]

To all that think TVC on the Fiesta ST is only active when wheel spin is detected, think again. That brochure Kazz kindly linked us to does not tell the entire story.

I heard and felt my TVC activate today on a low speed "cloverleaf-style" freeway off-ramp. It was a right hand 270 degree turn, my speed was approximately 25mph. I currently have Carbotech XP-10 brake pads installed, and I heard the passenger front squealing for a whole second, and I felt the car "rotate".

Why Ford assumes I need my car to rotate while taking a cloverleaf-style freeway off-ramp at mundane speeds is definitely a head scratcher and further validates our concerns that Ford should provide us the ability to defeat TVC. My brakes are being eaten up for nothing it seems, and the track use is downright abusive on them, much more than it needs to be thanks to TVC of course.

Lots of good discussion here! And yes [MENTION=5747]robbie_d[/MENTION], a wee bit angry! [emoji14]

So at least you know it's not applying enough pressure to build up enough heat to shut up aggressive pads lol.

And yes, TVC works in some odd situations. I would get it in my FoST at slow speeds going into a corner and just lifting. you would feel the inside front brake grab and pull the car in and this is all at speeds under 30. The FiST doesn't seem as intrusive but still noticeable.

 

[M-Sport fan]

And yes [MENTION=5747]robbie_d[/MENTION], a wee bit angry! [emoji14]

Hey, I would be as well if the TVC is burning up $150.00 to $250.00 an axle set of brake pads for NOTHING performance related (not to mention whatever rotors you are using-aftermarket BBK rotor ring co$t$ can get PROHIBITIVE!!).

 

[Jesse]

I've never had the Torque Vectoring system cause problems on track for me on the Fiesta, but if it did there is a simple way to disable cars from braking wheels when you don't want it too, disable ABS by pulling abs fuse or unplugging abs sensors.

 

[spoon]

Yeah well, I am happy in that I haven't destroyed anything quite yet. My frustrations are layered; the possibility of destroying my brakes, the discoloration and possible destroying of my wheels (I dunno, but I hope not), the fact that I am apprehensive to schedule more track days until I have a solution for these concerns, the fact that I am OCD and MUST install some sort of solution otherwise every mile that I drive the car annoys me, the fact that Ford didn't think to allow us to disable the TVC when it seems to easy and cheap to do.

I'm just ranting at this point now, sorry everyone.

A few have mentioned it, unplugging some harnesses should do the trick. I plan on doing this on track days in addition to installing more efficient rotors, calipers, and cooling ducts. :beer:

 

[sidewaysallday]

So moral of the story is you can either have no TVC and no airbags or no TVC and no ABS .... its just picking the lesser of two evils?

OR you just "turn off TVC" with the button and deal with TVC still being on and add cooling to your brakes?


Seems like Ford has really put us in a pickel here...