So I'm looking to get the best bang for my buck. Good coilovers are about a grand give or take a few hundred and drop springs, sway bars, and some bracing can be cheaper to the same price. What gives you real world good handling for the best price? I'm not picky about the stock ride being a little stiff, but I want to drop the car an inch and give it better handling for the canyons this summer.
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Performance for money: Coilovers vs drop springs, sway bars, and braces?
- Thread starter Pat B.
- Start date
I havent touched the suspension on this car yet, but I always have had good results with Coilovers vs springs. The only time I had springs, the stock shocks really werent compatible and they were blown up 6 months later and then went to coilovers. If had gone with the same springs and them some Konis or something similar, I was nearly at the cost of the KWs V3s that I ended up with.
Also, I typically go with the suspension before the bracing. In some cases you will see that the bracing may be compatible with stock height and suspension and then be completely off when you add springs or coils... This also works the other way around, but my thought is get the big money item on first before adding the less expensive stuff.
Also, I typically go with the suspension before the bracing. In some cases you will see that the bracing may be compatible with stock height and suspension and then be completely off when you add springs or coils... This also works the other way around, but my thought is get the big money item on first before adding the less expensive stuff.
I'm not sure that the FiST needs any more roll stiffness, especially in the front. I'd vote for either coilovers or springs *and* shocks/struts. Coilovers are great if you want to adjust ride height and, on some, dampening, but if you're just driving the car on the street they're probably overkill. The 2 point front brace makes in nice improvement in turn-in; the 6 point does that and locates the sub-frame nicely. The rear torsion bar helps with rotation. The strut tower and rear chassis braces are jewelry.
One is also stuck with trusting what the damper company thinks your car should feel/ride/handle like on the ONE adjustment for BOTH compression and rebound at the same time type coil over setups (which sadly IS most of them).
![[paranoid]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_paranoid.gif "Paranoid [paranoid]"){kind=icon}
![[doorpeek]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_doorpeek.gif "Door Peek [doorpeek]"){kind=icon}
<-waiting for Jerrick from Meister R (and maybe others) to jump in here and try to shoot this down with digressive valving charts and graphs and such. LOL!But maybe that's what you were implying with "the RIGHT coil overs"?
![[dunno]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_dunno.gif "Dunno [dunno]"){kind=icon}
One is also stuck with trusting what the damper company thinks your car should feel/ride/handle like on the ONE adjustment for BOTH compression and rebound at the same time type coil over setups (which sadly IS most of them).
<-waiting for Jerrick from Meister R (and maybe others) to jump in here and try to shoot this down with digressive valving charts and graphs and such. LOL!
But maybe that's what you were implying with "the RIGHT coil overs"?
<-waiting for Jerrick from Meister R (and maybe others) to jump in here and try to shoot this down with digressive valving charts and graphs and such. LOL!But maybe that's what you were implying with "the RIGHT coil overs"?
No matter what you do, all damping adjustment is a compromise.
You are basically trading ride compliancy / comfort for steering / damping response.
The adjustment just allows you to find what you want as the driver within the two end of the spectrum.
Think of it this way, what is effect of soft and hard adjustment for compression force and rebound force? Lets separate out its function.
Compression force function: control load on the tires, high force make the car more responsive at turn in, low force makes the car more compliant over bumps.
Rebound force function: control the motion of the car, high force makes the car move less, low force allows the car to move more.
When you have rebound force adjustment only, what that mean is you do not get to control the load that are applied to the tires.
All you get to adjust is how much body roll movement you car will exhibit.
When you combined compression and rebound adjustment together, what that mean is you get to control load that are applied to the tires paired to the body control.
So that mean when the body are allowed to move more (low rebound force), you want the bump to be soft so you get more comfort and compliancy over bumps.
When you want the body to move less (high rebound force), you want the bump to be high so you get more steering response.
Basically, assuming two dampers will have the same rebound adjustment range (from full soft to full stiff).
A combined adjustable damper will be more comfortable and compliant at full soft vs. a rebound adjustable only damper.
A combined adjustable damper will be more responsive and turn in better at full stiff vs. a rebound adjustable only damper.
That is because a rebound only adjustable damper have it's compression force stuck in the middle somewhere.
It won't be as soft on the full softer adjustment end, and it won't be as stiff as the full stiff adjustment end.
So no graph, no digressive curve, just definition of what compression and rebound force do.
Jerrick
Thread Starter
#8
So there is no straight forward way to say with what's on the market and what has been installed ,in all varying combos, improved on a handling test? Example-this driver with stock tires/suspension made "blank" entrance speed and "blank" exit speed vs these tires with these suspension modifications making the same turns with the same driver. Just seeing how the info can be compiled as like that of engine modifications. Or is it really that much of a drivers personal preference?
There isn't, there are just too many variable.
Different time of the day, different tire temperature, etc.
If you think of it this way, The Ring Banana project that we done with the Mazda Miata that ran at the Nurburgring.
The car was bought as it was, ran the ring at 9:21.
We swap a set of MeisterR coilovers, and it ran a 8:54.
This was the same car, on the same track, driven by the same driver (a GT4 race driver), running on the same set of tires (10 year old Kumho).
The only difference was the suspension, and the alignment (something you have to do when installing new suspension anyways).
It isn't as scientific test, but we try to limit as many variable already.
The reply from various forums include:
Of course it will be faster if it was an old set of standard suspension
Alignment probably would of made a big difference alone
Driver is learning the track better (this I find funny as he is a podium finishing race driver as well as a driving instructor at Nurburgring).
He had more traffic on the base lap vs. the new lap.
And so on...
What I am illustrating here isn't the test, but the reaction to the test.
Because there are so many variable, any manufacturer willing to throw money at a comparison test will probably not do it a second time.
There are too many variable to conclude, and any conclusion will always be meet will counter argument from another side.
So that is the main reason why you don't see comparison test, because aside from the test itself, chances are it will cause the manufacturer more hassle than it is worth.
Just thought I give you my view on this.
Jerrick
Different time of the day, different tire temperature, etc.
If you think of it this way, The Ring Banana project that we done with the Mazda Miata that ran at the Nurburgring.
The car was bought as it was, ran the ring at 9:21.
We swap a set of MeisterR coilovers, and it ran a 8:54.
This was the same car, on the same track, driven by the same driver (a GT4 race driver), running on the same set of tires (10 year old Kumho).
The only difference was the suspension, and the alignment (something you have to do when installing new suspension anyways).
It isn't as scientific test, but we try to limit as many variable already.
The reply from various forums include:
Of course it will be faster if it was an old set of standard suspension
Alignment probably would of made a big difference alone
Driver is learning the track better (this I find funny as he is a podium finishing race driver as well as a driving instructor at Nurburgring).
He had more traffic on the base lap vs. the new lap.
And so on...
What I am illustrating here isn't the test, but the reaction to the test.
Because there are so many variable, any manufacturer willing to throw money at a comparison test will probably not do it a second time.
There are too many variable to conclude, and any conclusion will always be meet will counter argument from another side.
So that is the main reason why you don't see comparison test, because aside from the test itself, chances are it will cause the manufacturer more hassle than it is worth.
Just thought I give you my view on this.
Jerrick
There isn't, there are just too many variable.
Different time of the day, different tire temperature, etc.
If you think of it this way, The Ring Banana project that we done with the Mazda Miata that ran at the Nurburgring.
The car was bought as it was, ran the ring at 9:21.
We swap a set of MeisterR coilovers, and it ran a 8:54.
This was the same car, on the same track, driven by the same driver (a GT4 race driver), running on the same set of tires (10 year old Kumho).
The only difference was the suspension, and the alignment (something you have to do when installing new suspension anyways).
It isn't as scientific test, but we try to limit as many variable already.
The reply from various forums include:
Of course it will be faster if it was an old set of standard suspension
Alignment probably would of made a big difference alone
Driver is learning the track better (this I find funny as he is a podium finishing race driver as well as a driving instructor at Nurburgring).
He had more traffic on the base lap vs. the new lap.
And so on...
What I am illustrating here isn't the test, but the reaction to the test.
Because there are so many variable, any manufacturer willing to throw money at a comparison test will probably not do it a second time.
There are too many variable to conclude, and any conclusion will always be meet will counter argument from another side.
So that is the main reason why you don't see comparison test, because aside from the test itself, chances are it will cause the manufacturer more hassle than it is worth.
Just thought I give you my view on this.
Jerrick
Different time of the day, different tire temperature, etc.
If you think of it this way, The Ring Banana project that we done with the Mazda Miata that ran at the Nurburgring.
The car was bought as it was, ran the ring at 9:21.
We swap a set of MeisterR coilovers, and it ran a 8:54.
This was the same car, on the same track, driven by the same driver (a GT4 race driver), running on the same set of tires (10 year old Kumho).
The only difference was the suspension, and the alignment (something you have to do when installing new suspension anyways).
It isn't as scientific test, but we try to limit as many variable already.
The reply from various forums include:
Of course it will be faster if it was an old set of standard suspension
Alignment probably would of made a big difference alone
Driver is learning the track better (this I find funny as he is a podium finishing race driver as well as a driving instructor at Nurburgring).
He had more traffic on the base lap vs. the new lap.
And so on...
What I am illustrating here isn't the test, but the reaction to the test.
Because there are so many variable, any manufacturer willing to throw money at a comparison test will probably not do it a second time.
There are too many variable to conclude, and any conclusion will always be meet will counter argument from another side.
So that is the main reason why you don't see comparison test, because aside from the test itself, chances are it will cause the manufacturer more hassle than it is worth.
Just thought I give you my view on this.
Jerrick
Thread Starter
#11
It'd be nice to see a driver on a simple handling coarse like slalom and skid pad in a very controlled manner use both a stock suspension and upgraded one. It honestly would be nice to have a visual. I understand it can be a nightmare cause it's not as easy as strapping something to a dyno and saying "look we made 50hp and 40 more torque at the wheels with this turbo upgrade"- however skewed the results are, with enough of them out there, you can come to your own educated conclusion about power mods. It'd be nice to see the same with the suspension.
^^^Now, THAT actually made some sense! ![[thumb]](/images/smilies/icon_smile_thumb.gif "Thumbs Up [thumb]")
Plus, I would not now argue against your all in one adjustment being greater than a single rebound adjustment damper which has the incorrect compression damping, and I can see your point in matched increases to both.
It's just that there will be some scenarios where you would want BOTH, but be able to separate the adjustments, regardless of whether or not "you know what you're doing" (one can always seek help/guidance with this from those with experience who DO know exactly what they are doing, so that is a POOR excuse! ).
The next 'knock' I hear often is the single vs. twin tube noise, which albeit has very much validity in a hard core, pure race/rally arena, will be hard pressed to show it's deficits/drawbacks for street/mild track use, although yes, YOU could then argue that one does not need separated out adjustments for those purposes as well.
All that being said, have no doubts that IF I were to go for an 'all in one' adjustment setup, it WILL BE yours, even though I am curious to see what MFactory comes up with, and whether or not it is just your coil overs with their logo on it.
Plus, I would not now argue against your all in one adjustment being greater than a single rebound adjustment damper which has the incorrect compression damping, and I can see your point in matched increases to both.
It's just that there will be some scenarios where you would want BOTH, but be able to separate the adjustments, regardless of whether or not "you know what you're doing" (one can always seek help/guidance with this from those with experience who DO know exactly what they are doing, so that is a POOR excuse!
).The next 'knock' I hear often is the single vs. twin tube noise, which albeit has very much validity in a hard core, pure race/rally arena, will be hard pressed to show it's deficits/drawbacks for street/mild track use, although yes, YOU could then argue that one does not need separated out adjustments for those purposes as well.
All that being said, have no doubts that IF I were to go for an 'all in one' adjustment setup, it WILL BE yours, even though I am curious to see what MFactory comes up with, and whether or not it is just your coil overs with their logo on it.
The problem with that is you could get what I call the "Nurburgring effect" that happened about 8 to 10 years ago.
During the late 2000's, every manufacturer all of sudden marketed using the "tuned on Nurburgring", and a fast time is what they classify as a good handling car.
The problem with that is as you start doing that, suspension start getting stiffer and stiffer.
Instead of having good road suspension that can go on track, they end up with race suspension that are bearable on the road.
When I drive any of the BMW Msport, Audi S-line, etc... I hated their sport suspension with a passion, there was just no need for that o na bumpy road.
A faster lap time car that pulls faster corner speed and lap time isn't always a better suspension.
And if you do a test, and X suspension is faster than Y suspension on OEM tires.
Once you change the tires, it is very possible that the Y suspension is now the faster setup.
There are just too much to account for that will make it useful as a real world reference.
Jerrick
During the late 2000's, every manufacturer all of sudden marketed using the "tuned on Nurburgring", and a fast time is what they classify as a good handling car.
The problem with that is as you start doing that, suspension start getting stiffer and stiffer.
Instead of having good road suspension that can go on track, they end up with race suspension that are bearable on the road.
When I drive any of the BMW Msport, Audi S-line, etc... I hated their sport suspension with a passion, there was just no need for that o na bumpy road.
A faster lap time car that pulls faster corner speed and lap time isn't always a better suspension.
And if you do a test, and X suspension is faster than Y suspension on OEM tires.
Once you change the tires, it is very possible that the Y suspension is now the faster setup.
There are just too much to account for that will make it useful as a real world reference.
Jerrick
^^^Now, THAT actually made some sense!
Plus, I would not now argue against your all in one adjustment being greater than a single rebound adjustment damper which has the incorrect compression damping, and I can see your point in matched increases to both.
It's just that there will be some scenarios where you would want BOTH, but be able to separate the adjustments, regardless of whether or not "you know what you're doing" (one can always seek help/guidance with this from those with experience who DO know exactly what they are doing, so that is a POOR excuse! ).
The next 'knock' I hear often is the single vs. twin tube noise, which albeit has very much validity in a hard core, pure race/rally arena, will be hard pressed to show it's deficits/drawbacks for street/mild track use, although yes, YOU could then argue that one does not need separated out adjustments for those purposes as well.
All that being said, have no doubts that IF I were to go for an 'all in one' adjustment setup, it WILL BE yours, even though I am curious to see what MFactory comes up with, and whether or not it is just your coil overs with their logo on it.
Plus, I would not now argue against your all in one adjustment being greater than a single rebound adjustment damper which has the incorrect compression damping, and I can see your point in matched increases to both.
It's just that there will be some scenarios where you would want BOTH, but be able to separate the adjustments, regardless of whether or not "you know what you're doing" (one can always seek help/guidance with this from those with experience who DO know exactly what they are doing, so that is a POOR excuse!
).The next 'knock' I hear often is the single vs. twin tube noise, which albeit has very much validity in a hard core, pure race/rally arena, will be hard pressed to show it's deficits/drawbacks for street/mild track use, although yes, YOU could then argue that one does not need separated out adjustments for those purposes as well.
All that being said, have no doubts that IF I were to go for an 'all in one' adjustment setup, it WILL BE yours, even though I am curious to see what MFactory comes up with, and whether or not it is just your coil overs with their logo on it.
I always say the only draw back on a 2-way is if you know how to adjust it, because that is the real world application.
Most customers just do not have the access to the data / expertise / experience needed to correctly adjust a 2-way.
If It was me, and I have dyno of every adjustment on a two-way, then lovely.
I can have a setup that is good for street, running about 60% critical rebound and about a 1:3 compression to rebound ratio.
Go on the track, bring the rebound up to 100% critical and run a 1:2 damping ratio.
Then all of sudden it rains, then I can drop the damping ratio to 1: 2.5 to help the tire grip while staying at 100% critical rebound.
All of the above, lovely... no draw back at all because of the 2-way adjustment.
However, this only works for me if I have the data on all the damping adjustment, and I know what I am adjusting because I work with suspension for a living.
If you just throw a 2-way in a box, give it to a customer without any damper dyno data who is an amateur / clubman driver with limited experience in suspension tuning and vehicle dynamics.
You can see how there can be a lot of possibility for things to go very wrong.
That to me is the only drawback of a 2-way suspensions, because the product is perfectly fine if one knows how to use it.
The drawback of a 1-way suspension is that it is a compromise, you reduce the possibility of incorrect adjustment but also reduce the adaptability of the adjustment.
But for me from a design point of view, the 1-way is more preferable because not having the knife edge correct adjustment will yield better performance than having an adjustment that was way off the chart wrong.
But that is my opinion, I honestly don't think 2-way are bad.
I mean we wouldn't be building this if we think it were.
![[biggrin]](/images/smilies/biggrin.gif "Big Grin [biggrin]")
Jerrick
That is correct, tires is the only thing that touch the ground.
But there are exception sometime, and that was why we were all shocked by The Ring banana performance.
If you haven't seen it, watch it here... it is pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIa9daOBDTHoFQbvyvQcpcIEHFqO6fEdz
Basically, same car (90hp Mazda Miata), same driver, same track.
Car as bought, 10 years old Kumho road tires, unknown suspension: 9.21
Swap old tires to Kumho V70A Semi-Slick tires: 8.59
Swap suspension to MeisterR coilovers with new alignment, and reinstall the 10 years old Kumho road tires: 8:54
MeisterR coilovers with Kumho V70A: 8:39
So the car some how manage to save more time with suspension / alignment over semi-slick tires; and that was unexpected.
It was just a fun project, but to knock a 8:39 out is pretty impressive with only 90 hp.
Jerrick
But there are exception sometime, and that was why we were all shocked by The Ring banana performance.
If you haven't seen it, watch it here... it is pretty good.
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIa9daOBDTHoFQbvyvQcpcIEHFqO6fEdz
Basically, same car (90hp Mazda Miata), same driver, same track.
Car as bought, 10 years old Kumho road tires, unknown suspension: 9.21
Swap old tires to Kumho V70A Semi-Slick tires: 8.59
Swap suspension to MeisterR coilovers with new alignment, and reinstall the 10 years old Kumho road tires: 8:54
MeisterR coilovers with Kumho V70A: 8:39
So the car some how manage to save more time with suspension / alignment over semi-slick tires; and that was unexpected.
It was just a fun project, but to knock a 8:39 out is pretty impressive with only 90 hp.
Jerrick
Thread Starter
#17
So what I'm getting from this is this: if I get dual adjustability I can set them to perform well in one application that is smooth, another application that is more bumpy but similar speeds and turns, rain to keep all the tires planted square, dragging so there's less rear dip, and so on... in a single adjustable setup these two are tied together into one adjustment. So real world I would be happy with the single 99% of the time and have a lot easier of a time adjusting them. Whereas with the dual adjustablitity I could be fiddling away all day and still not get things right, and be far worse off than just having the single.
Hope I'm right there lol, thanks for all the insight so far
Hope I'm right there lol, thanks for all the insight so far
The way I look at it, if you know what you are doing or you can get the guidance on what to do, having a 2-way have no drawback other than complexity.
I always say the only draw back on a 2-way is if you know how to adjust it, because that is the real world application.
Most customers just do not have the access to the data / expertise / experience needed to correctly adjust a 2-way.
If It was me, and I have dyno of every adjustment on a two-way, then lovely.
I can have a setup that is good for street, running about 60% critical rebound and about a 1:3 compression to rebound ratio.
Go on the track, bring the rebound up to 100% critical and run a 1:2 damping ratio.
Then all of sudden it rains, then I can drop the damping ratio to 1: 2.5 to help the tire grip while staying at 100% critical rebound.
All of the above, lovely... no draw back at all because of the 2-way adjustment.
However, this only works for me if I have the data on all the damping adjustment, and I know what I am adjusting because I work with suspension for a living.
If you just throw a 2-way in a box, give it to a customer without any damper dyno data who is an amateur / clubman driver with limited experience in suspension tuning and vehicle dynamics.
You can see how there can be a lot of possibility for things to go very wrong.
That to me is the only drawback of a 2-way suspensions, because the product is perfectly fine if one knows how to use it.
The drawback of a 1-way suspension is that it is a compromise, you reduce the possibility of incorrect adjustment but also reduce the adaptability of the adjustment.
But for me from a design point of view, the 1-way is more preferable because not having the knife edge correct adjustment will yield better performance than having an adjustment that was way off the chart wrong.
But that is my opinion, I honestly don't think 2-way are bad.
I mean we wouldn't be building this if we think it were.
Jerrick
I always say the only draw back on a 2-way is if you know how to adjust it, because that is the real world application.
Most customers just do not have the access to the data / expertise / experience needed to correctly adjust a 2-way.
If It was me, and I have dyno of every adjustment on a two-way, then lovely.
I can have a setup that is good for street, running about 60% critical rebound and about a 1:3 compression to rebound ratio.
Go on the track, bring the rebound up to 100% critical and run a 1:2 damping ratio.
Then all of sudden it rains, then I can drop the damping ratio to 1: 2.5 to help the tire grip while staying at 100% critical rebound.
All of the above, lovely... no draw back at all because of the 2-way adjustment.
However, this only works for me if I have the data on all the damping adjustment, and I know what I am adjusting because I work with suspension for a living.
If you just throw a 2-way in a box, give it to a customer without any damper dyno data who is an amateur / clubman driver with limited experience in suspension tuning and vehicle dynamics.
You can see how there can be a lot of possibility for things to go very wrong.
That to me is the only drawback of a 2-way suspensions, because the product is perfectly fine if one knows how to use it.
The drawback of a 1-way suspension is that it is a compromise, you reduce the possibility of incorrect adjustment but also reduce the adaptability of the adjustment.
But for me from a design point of view, the 1-way is more preferable because not having the knife edge correct adjustment will yield better performance than having an adjustment that was way off the chart wrong.
But that is my opinion, I honestly don't think 2-way are bad.
I mean we wouldn't be building this if we think it were.
Jerrick
Which car are those remote reservoir 2 ways for??
Thank you for the above explanations.
Which car are those remote reservoir 2 ways for??
Which car are those remote reservoir 2 ways for??
This is a build on top of our GT1, which we are calling GT3.
We have all the data on the 3-way setup already, it is a case of adapting the modular design into our current range.
So once we made all the small parts needed to adapt the remote canister into our range, then we can build a 3-way setup for any model we offer (including the Fiesta ST of course).
MeisterR GT3 3-way will be a custom build setup.
What that mean is that they are build to spec for the car fitting the suspension; it won't just be an off the shelf 3-way kit customer will bolt on any car.
Jerrick
I read a lot about dampers and springs, learned from Jerrick too, ended up with MeisterR. First track day on them all I did was play with adjustments and record data. Posted test results.
I have continued to adjust, try different things, etc. Best things about 2 way adjustable MeisterR to me is ease of adjustment, and easy to tell the difference between adjustments from drivers seat. I found a combo that is good for Palm Beach International, very smooth track, have more traction with these than with OEM struts.
Then dial down softer for street, still plenty of control, and more comfortable than OEM. I can see how enough playing with adjustments and I will know about where to set them for different wheel sizes, sidewall stiffness and track surfaces.
I dropped about 0.8" F and 0.7" R. Getting the drop dialed in took longer than I expected. If you enjoy experimenting and finding sweet spots for tracking, coilovers with double adjustment in one knob are great. If you are not going to play with them, could be a waste of money.
Mine adjust from a little too soft for street (for me) to quite a bit too stiff for track (for me). To be fair, they are valved for 6/4 springs and I am still running the 5/3 springs that came with them. So still playing, will mount Swift springs eventually just to see what they do.
I have continued to adjust, try different things, etc. Best things about 2 way adjustable MeisterR to me is ease of adjustment, and easy to tell the difference between adjustments from drivers seat. I found a combo that is good for Palm Beach International, very smooth track, have more traction with these than with OEM struts.
Then dial down softer for street, still plenty of control, and more comfortable than OEM. I can see how enough playing with adjustments and I will know about where to set them for different wheel sizes, sidewall stiffness and track surfaces.
I dropped about 0.8" F and 0.7" R. Getting the drop dialed in took longer than I expected. If you enjoy experimenting and finding sweet spots for tracking, coilovers with double adjustment in one knob are great. If you are not going to play with them, could be a waste of money.
Mine adjust from a little too soft for street (for me) to quite a bit too stiff for track (for me). To be fair, they are valved for 6/4 springs and I am still running the 5/3 springs that came with them. So still playing, will mount Swift springs eventually just to see what they do.
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