Cyborg/big turbo and LSD and traction and torque steer questions

[jeff]

Ladies and Gents,

I've been reading a bit on turbo upgrades.....thinking of it as an option at some point later....one of the more common things I'm finding across the board with the X turbos, M265, DHM and others is that 1st and 2nd and sometimes 3rd gear WOT on street tires has no traction without LSD...just curious what you BT guys experience in real world driving. For someone like me who is not building a track beast or looking for 1/4 mile numbers but rather wants a daily driver, I'm still wondering if this is the right path in the future. The cost of turbo upgrade and LSD adds up quick....once I pay off the car I'm considering more power but wondering at the end of the day how the car really will perform as a DD. Much of what I'm reading/watching has someone having a euphoric experience with all the mid/upper RPM range power but also pretty much every time they say "but there's that torque steer" or "but 1st and 2nd are useless" or "wow that really rips the tires up" or etc.

Of course a stock turbo is capable of the same but obviously a turbo upgrade only increases this issue.

So...driving around town, do you big turbo guys stay away from WOT? Are you going through tires too fast? Do you drive on a "city" tune and save the power for the track? Did LSD solve all these problems?

Thanks for perspective/input.

 

[Goingnowherefast]

I want to see some other answers, but it seems like the problem I see with use-ability in low gears (with or without LSD) is from a large amount of people who go hybrid turbo or BT but then aren't willing to drop to a smaller wheel and a 225 tire. Expecting a generic street tire to deal with the power coming out of corners is simply unrealistic. Tires are the most important part of any car and the BT/Hybrid guys should at least have some UHP summers if not one of the 200TW options on there imo.

 

[jeff]

I want to see some other answers, but it seems like the problem I see with use-ability in low gears (with or without LSD) is from a large amount of people who go hybrid turbo or BT but then aren't willing to drop to a smaller wheel and a 225 tire. Expecting a generic street tire to deal with the power coming out of corners is simply unrealistic. Tires are the most important part of any car and the BT/Hybrid guys should at least have some UHP summers if not one of the 200TW options on there imo.

That's one of the real-world situations I'm hoping folks will speak to - coming out of corners. I enjoy coming out of a corner WOT - if I go BT and have to be gentle on the throttle so as to not lose traction especially in corners I'm wondering if I'm trading the best part of my car (handling with a minor in power) so it will accelerate like a mustang (power with a minor in handling).

 

[Goingnowherefast]

That's one of the real-world situations I'm hoping folks will speak to - coming out of corners. I enjoy coming out of a corner WOT - if I go BT and have to be gentle on the throttle so as to not lose traction especially in corners I'm wondering if I'm trading the best part of my car (handling with a minor in power) so it will accelerate like a mustang (power with a minor in handling).

So it's important to note going BT/Hybrid isn't going to change how the car physically handles, you know? Like if it understeers at the limit before it'll still do it. But ya the change is going to come mainly when coming out of corners etc. But here's what I will say, a lot of times when going from a tiny, peaky turbo to a turbo that (while it has more power, it has longer spool up and moves the power band to the right) I've actually found that a bigger turbo can actually make grip better sometimes by increasing the time it takes to get into boost and the higher speed it will be going when it does actually get into boost.

But again, tires are key. I don't understand the people who keep like the "stancy" aftermarket wheels look that bottlenecks you into fitting 205/215 tires. Moving to real summers with a good section width is going to have more effect on total grip out of corners on anything else.

As far as actually reporting, I'll tell you how going to X37 goes (gonna be running 225 Rival S 1.5 or the new RS4's).

 

[jeff]

So it's important to note going BT/Hybrid isn't going to change how the car physically handles, you know? Like if it understeers at the limit before it'll still do it. But ya the change is going to come mainly when coming out of corners etc. But here's what I will say, a lot of times when going from a tiny, peaky turbo to a turbo that (while it has more power, it has longer spool up and moves the power band to the right) I've actually found that a bigger turbo can actually make grip better sometimes by increasing the time it takes to get into boost and the higher speed it will be going when it does actually get into boost.

But again, tires are key. I don't understand the people who keep like the "stancy" aftermarket wheels look that bottlenecks you into fitting 205/215 tires. Moving to real summers with a good section width is going to have more effect on total grip out of corners on anything else.

As far as actually reporting, I'll tell you how going to X37 goes (gonna be running 225 Rival S 1.5 or the new RS4's).

Yes thanks for that, I realize that, however if the car doesn't spool until around 3k rpm then a downshift is required coming out of a corner if you don't want to wait on turbo lag with a big turbo, so it sort of defeats the purpose unless you downshift, but when you do I'm assuming you then can't floor it because you'll lose control/traction, which is especially dangerous in a corner....the idea of having to pamper the throttle doesn't appeal to me. I'm spoiled with big AWD power in days past.

That's why I'm asking these questions....big power seems to me to fundamentally change the nature of this car and somewhat alter it's usefulness as a corner carver.

As it is, my car is tuned to keep 95% of traction in the lower gears and just break a tiny bit - it's limited on purpose so I don't shred my tires and actually stick to the road. I'm thinking down the road of putting a bigger turbo on but I'm wondering if more power in the midrange is worth what I perceive to be a loss of agility.

Just thinking ahead of whether to spend a few thousand clams to make this car faster, or just buy a faster car next time around.

 

[Pete]

This is my experience going from the stock turbo the the x37 and having re71r's and the stock tires to go back and fourth to compare. With Re71r's there was plenty of grip with a 205/50/16 tire. Second gear would grip unless dirt on the road, water or tires are cold. This was on Ford performance or eibach coil overs. With the stock tires 3rd gear seemed to be the key gear for traction. Second gear past 5000 rpm would spin the tires.

When I switched the suspension to KW V3 on the same road in a straight line the stock tires improved in grip on second gear having minimal spinning compared to before. However in corners there was still a lack of grip in second gear with the stock tires. I'll be posting my findings after I do an lsd install x47 turbo engine build, and all suspension bushings swapped. Comparing own tires to full slicks and eventually a 200tw tire.

 

[jeff]

This is my experience going from the stock turbo the the x37 and having re71r's and the stock tires to go back and fourth to compare. With Re71r's there was plenty of grip with a 205/50/16 tire. Second gear would grip unless dirt on the road, water or tires are cold. This was on Ford performance or eibach coil overs. With the stock tires 3rd gear seemed to be the key gear for traction. Second gear past 5000 rpm would spin the tires.

When I switched the suspension to KW V3 on the same road in a straight line the stock tires improved in grip on second gear having minimal spinning compared to before. However in corners there was still a lack of grip in second gear with the stock tires. I'll be posting my findings after I do an lsd install x47 turbo engine build, and all suspension bushings swapped. Comparing own tires to full slicks and eventually a 200tw tire.

This is extremely helpful, thank you for your honesty and insight.

Sounds about like I thought....tires + LSD are really needed to hook up. In my thinking, along with the thousands of $$$ needed to go big turbo there are more thousands of $$$ needed to get the accompanying gear to make the power usable. Is that a fair assessment?

Another thing I forgot to mention, but you did, is cold weather and wet roads. Of course that exacerbates the issue at hand even more. Even on a tuned stock turbo it's just no fun when cold or wet outside. So I'm thinking you guys with bigger power deal with this even more and have to be more careful than I do. For a good 30% of the time since the cold weather began in November I've driven my Civic and left the FiST in the garage because it's pointless due to rain and/or cold).

 

[M-Sport fan]

Another thing I forgot to mention, but you did, is cold weather and wet roads. Of course that exacerbates the issue at hand even more. Even on a tuned stock turbo it's just no fun when cold or wet outside. So I'm thinking you guys with bigger power deal with this even more and have to be more careful than I do. For a good 30% of the time since the cold weather began in November I've driven my Civic and left the FiST in the garage because it's pointless due to rain and/or cold).

^^^Also, this loss of traction is exacerbated even more yet by the (at the very least) slightly more power the hybrid/BT people (and even us plebeian factory snail users, to a lesser extent) make in the cold ambients due to lowered CATs.

I know there are some on here who swear up and down that they do not 'need' a mechanical limited slip diff, even with stupid BIG power, but for me at least, it is a requirement BEFORE going to any turbo upgrade for the very reasons/concerns you gave in this post, and Pete has confirmed.

Sadly, to get one in the car in my case, is an > $3K proposition.

 

[jeff]

Yes, that's the thing exactly. I'm thinking this out...I don't want to spend the money on the BT upgrade only to deal with the same frustration on a bigger level.

And you're right about cold weather power, I'm on a weaker tune right now while it's cold for that reason.

 

[V_2]

I have no difference in traction issues with a gt2560r than I did with stage 3 on stock turbo, in that it is an issue if you mash the gas coming out of corners or low gears. Maybe a little better with the BT since torque is big later on in the powerband and easier to manage without the instant spool-up of stock (and probably hybrid) turbo. It doesn't take long to figure out input limits and I have absolutely no regrets. Omission of a proper LSD on these cars still blows my mind...

 

[Goingnowherefast]

^^^Also, this loss of traction is exacerbated even more yet by the (at the very least) slightly more power the hybrid/BT people (and even us plebeian factory snail users, to a lesser extent) make in the cold ambients due to lowered CATs.

I know there are some on here who swear up and down that they do not 'need' a mechanical limited slip diff, even with stupid BIG power, but for me at least, it is a requirement BEFORE going to any turbo upgrade for the very reasons/concerns you gave in this post, and Pete has confirmed.

Sadly, to get one in the car in my case, is an > $3K proposition.

I believe Mfactory sells them for $690. I was quoted 6-8 hours install time from DHM. I would assume most shops could do it in that time +1-2 hours. So you should be able to get an LSD installed, new, for $1500-$2000.

 

[1azst]

Why not just tune for less boost in first and second? Running the dhm360, I don't have much wot traction in first and only a little in second. I have gotten better with pt accelerating though.

 

[jeff]

Omission of a proper LSD on these cars still blows my mind...

Exactly, that's what's been going through my mind and why I started this thread. Thanks for this.

I believe Mfactory sells them for $690. I was quoted 6-8 hours install time from DHM. I would assume most shops could do it in that time +1-2 hours. So you should be able to get an LSD installed, new, for $1500-$2000.

So bottom line assuming one already has all or most of the bolt-ons like me..........I'm estimating new turbo plus gaskets plus IWG plus LSD and other miscellany plus fresh tune brings a "done correctly" cyborg/big turbo setup to around $4000 minimum assuming one installs the turbo themself, which I've done before and could handle, and pays to have the LSD installed, which I would pay someone to do. Without bolt-ons already purchased, more like $6000 minimum if most is installed by oneself.

 

[jeff]

Why not just tune for less boost in first and second? Running the dhm360, I don't have much wot traction in first and only a little in second. I have gotten better with pt accelerating though.

That's what I've done with my stock turbo tune and would do the same if the LSD didn't handle the power of a big turbo....tune down to save tires and keep traction = go faster. It's all how you want the car to drive and how often you want to replace tires.

The thing is, while this seems obvious to me, like I said many of the reviews of BT I've read have the reviewer roasting the tires/losing traction.

Thanks all for the comments.

 

[Hijinx]

If I may, I'll begin with snow/ice conditions.

So far, this winter we've had once snow/icing in which I took my Fiesta out on in my neighborhood. I also regularly drive it in below freezing temps. On Firehawk Oval AS in 205/40-17 I didn't have any unexpected issues getting around the neighborhood; no spinning on take-off. It is true that in below freezing temps and wet road I can induce a loss of traction in third, and even fourth at 80mph, at WOT. Otherwise, passing acceleration presents no problems.

I believe there's a misconception. Unlike a RWD V8, we don't make a ton of torque that becomes a problem during a light throttle take-off.

Warmer months are a little different for me. 225/45-15 BFG Rival-S are nice and sticky. However, because they're not very tall, there's only an optimistic increase in linear traction. Lateral traction is greatly improved though, and I think this is what you want to hear about. All I can speak to is spirited driving, though. Those turns onto the on ramp? Coming out of the bend it sticks fairly well at part throttle, even without an LSD. Have tried full throttle. The combination of my chassis mods, tires and power far exceed what I believe to be relatively safe hooning on the streets with my experience. I've done a bit of mountain carving, pushing the car to oversteer, but that was stock turbo and hybrid. I know my skill level and won't go beyond on public roads. I will one day road track my car to improve myself. Straights are different though, which brings me to my next point.

I'm not sure where people get the idea that a big turbo Fiesta has a torque steer problem. I took the opportunity to drive a brand new, factory, on the dealer lot, Fiesta ST recently. By comparison, the torque steer increase is marginal. I once drove an OEM MS3; it will change lanes on you if you let it, so that's how I gauge what bad torque steer is. I have multiple videos that can show my car doesn't torque steer much.


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[M-Sport fan]

I believe Mfactory sells them for $690. I was quoted 6-8 hours install time from DHM. I would assume most shops could do it in that time +1-2 hours. So you should be able to get an LSD installed, new, for $1500-$2000.

The LEAST I've been quoted in my area for labor ONLY is ~$2200.00!

The Mfactory one sounds pretty good, but IF I did it already, and had to pay that much for installation, I would want a Wavetrac, like Pete has.

YES, I WISH I lived near one of these shops charging MUCH less, and probably doing a much better job at the same time.

 

[jeff]

If I may, I'll begin with snow/ice conditions.

So far, this winter we've had once snow/icing in which I took my Fiesta out on in my neighborhood. I also regularly drive it in below freezing temps. On Firehawk Oval AS in 205/40-17 I didn't have any unexpected issues getting around the neighborhood; no spinning on take-off. It is true that in below freezing temps and wet road I can induce a loss of traction in third, and even fourth at 80mph, at WOT. Otherwise, passing acceleration presents no problems.

I believe there's a misconception. Unlike a RWD V8, we don't make a ton of torque that becomes a problem during a light throttle take-off.

Warmer months are a little different for me. 225/45-15 BFG Rival-S are nice and sticky. However, because they're not very tall, there's only an optimistic increase in linear traction. Lateral traction is greatly improved though, and I think this is what you want to hear about. All I can speak to is spirited driving, though. Those turns onto the on ramp? Coming out of the bend it sticks fairly well at part throttle, even without an LSD. Have tried full throttle. The combination of my chassis mods, tires and power far exceed what I believe to be relatively safe hooning on the streets with my experience. I've done a bit of mountain carving, pushing the car to oversteer, but that was stock turbo and hybrid. I know my skill level and won't go beyond on public roads. I will one day road track my car to improve myself. Straights are different though, which brings me to my next point.

I'm not sure where people get the idea that a big turbo Fiesta has a torque steer problem. I took the opportunity to drive a brand new, factory, on the dealer lot, Fiesta ST recently. By comparison, the torque steer increase is marginal. I once drove an OEM MS3; it will change lanes on you if you let it, so that's how I gauge what bad torque steer is. I have multiple videos that can show my car doesn't torque steer much.


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Thanks that is also helpful perspective. It sounds like you've got the tires and experience to make the car behave on the street as long as you are easy on the throttle. Also I know your goals are different from mine so your rocket launch philosophy works well with your setup. I am surprised you don't have LSD though with that level of power.

 

[M-Sport fan]

^^^IF he were regularly using his car for time attack/road course/open tracking, I would venture to guess that he WOULD have a limited slip diff in that monster (or at least be seriously considering one ).

 

[Siestarider]

If you are not tracking regular and hard, my opinion is an LSD is a waste of money. TVC works very well up until you are asking for 90+% performance for extended periods of time. For street, TVC is very capable of imitating LSD for hot rod bursts. But if you want to press hard for 20 minutes or more, it will eat your brakes.

My experience with hybrids Cyborg and C39 is very positive in terms of street friendly power curves. have not had enough track time on them to compare fully with Cobb S3 stock turbo. If I had to choose one, I would pick LSD over hybrid for track, and vice versa for street.

 

[jeff]

If you are not tracking regular and hard, my opinion is an LSD is a waste of money. TVC works very well up until you are asking for 90+% performance for extended periods of time. For street, TVC is very capable of imitating LSD for hot rod bursts. But if you want to press hard for 20 minutes or more, it will eat your brakes.

My experience with hybrids Cyborg and C39 is very positive in terms of street friendly power curves. have not had enough track time on them to compare fully with Cobb S3 stock turbo. If I had to choose one, I would pick LSD over hybrid for track, and vice versa for street.

This makes good sense but my goal is preserving 100% or as close as I can get to that of power for the street hence the LSD. Again that's part of why many of us bought the FiST in the first place instead of something we couldn't fully enjoy safely unless on closed roads. I'm concerned of having too much power to use on the street and in corners.

Again from most of the reviews of BT I read people have to be ginger with the throttle in lower gears. Those who have beyond 300 HP without LSD are struggling big time with torque steer whether or not they want to admit it, it's impossible not to be. Factory TC is decent but can't come near to reining in a tuned car even with a stock turbo much less one with a BT.