Accel Junky's Magnetic Build Thread

[KKaWing]

Look up TCE Performance. They deal with Wilwood parts. They have a 1.1" wide rotor with FSL calipers (lots of pads for this caliper). Only downsides are wheel needs a bit more clearance and the pistons don't have dustboots (but no dustboots to melt on track). The 1.1" rotors will dissipate heat better and have more material for greater thermal capacity (if that's the right term for it). Give them a shout if things don't workout with wilwood themselves.

Their Fiesta options.

 

[deathratt1e]

do they only allow Grey and Silver cars on that track?

 

[M-Sport fan]

Accel Junky;

Does (did) your Wilwood kit have dust boots?

Is that what actually caught fire, or was it the pad material itself??

 

[Todd TCE]

Then below that you will see the carnage that occurred during my last session of the day. Brakes failed and I went off and narrowly missed a barrier. Had to ebrake back to the pits where I discovered mushroomed and grinded brake pistons, warped backing plates, destroyed Polymatrix pads, bent pad pins, and my passenger caliper ON FIRE. Needless to say I had to get the car trailered back by a friend. I'm working with Wilwood to get the braking kit replaced. Hoping they step up.

Someone linked me to this for some input.

First a very unfortunate situation that could have been worse. Dodged a bullet a bit on this one...

That being said...Polymatrix E compound pads are NOT a race compound for open track use. (nor are the stock BP10 pads that come with the kits). E compound is an elevated street compound which would be ideal for Autocross use and parking lot Solo events. It's roots are in dirt track and lighter weight vehicles.

What happened was the sustained high temps allowed the compound to break down and the binding agents to come apart. Much the same as the original BP pads. The E pads have perhaps an elevated temp range of up to 7-700f and while they could be pushed maybe beyond that in a rare event only ample cooling time would allow for enough recovery to do it again.

The entire Factory Kit is an exceptional value but it is not a racing kit. The limitations being: light weight, non directional rotors, pads of only 12mm thickness and compounds not suited for extended open track use. There's nothing wrong with the kit...and to that end this was no so much 'brake failure' as it was the wrong equipment for the job.

To maximize the Fiesta kit you'll need: Heavy duty GT rotor castings, race pads such as H compound, some Titainium heat shields and some ducting for cooling. At that it will remain "rotor challenged" in the size of only 12.2 x .810". Most race sets are a minimum of 1.10" and more ideally 1.25" castings and today put 14" or more. The Fiesta doesn't need quite all that...but the Fiesta kit was not engineered for a track day use- coming well before there was an ST model in fact.

Please get some of the more suited parts for this use and build in some greater margin of safety.

 

[Accel Junky]

How much does ap Racing get for their kits? (I'm afraid to ask, or even look it up. )

Looks like about $2300-2500 for 4 pots. The Brembo GT kits are even more. I still think the Wilwood kit is plenty of brake.

Look up TCE Performance. They deal with Wilwood parts. They have a 1.1" wide rotor with FSL calipers (lots of pads for this caliper). Only downsides are wheel needs a bit more clearance and the pistons don't have dustboots (but no dustboots to melt on track). The 1.1" rotors will dissipate heat better and have more material for greater thermal capacity (if that's the right term for it). Give them a shout if things don't workout with wilwood themselves.

Their Fiesta options.

Very cool! Will definitely keep them in mind.

do they only allow Grey and Silver cars on that track?

Seems like it I think I just ran into a gaggle of 'em.

Accel Junky;

Does (did) your Wilwood kit have dust boots?

Is that what actually caught fire, or was it the pad material itself??

No boots. Seemed like to me that the piston came out of its socket enough as it ground through the pad and backing to the point that brake fluid leaked onto the red hot rotor or ignited by sparks from metal on metal. You can see the pool of brake fluid dripping off the brake in one of the photos. Once I rigged the piston and the earlier pads back on we bled it and it did not leak so I think that is where the fluid came out.

 

[Accel Junky]

Well...here is the response that I got from the Wilwood vendor after I replied with massive detail to Wilwood themselves (they asked for full explanation of how I installed, bedded pads, changed pads, etc...).

As per the manufacturer, While the 140-11899 Fiesta kit is a real good street/performance kit its not designed for race/endurance runs such as this. The pads used, BP-10 are a good all-around street pad and sold in the majority of the kits we offer but not recommended for this type of racing.

With this said , there is nothing to be warranty. You used a Street Application kit with Street brake pads in a race situation. We do apologize for that.

If you have any additional questions, please feel free to contact us at CARiD.com!

Thank you and have a good day.

Needless to say I am on the warpath now. Race and endurance runs? It was an HPDE track day you fool. Street application kit? Not according to all of your marketing material. I used two sets of pads and the pads on during the failure are labeled for "racing" on Wilwoods website.

I've printed all of Wilwood's materials and highlighted every mention of competition and racing to prove that a simple track day is not outside of the use of this kit. Ugh...the shit they are going to go through to save themselves maybe $300 or whatever the kit costs them to replace for me.

 

[Raindog]

Holy shite, I would be fuming. Hope you can get it ironed out without needing too many walks around the block.

 

[TeeReQs]

Well...here is the response that I got from the Wilwood vendor after I replied with massive detail to Wilwood themselves (they asked for full explanation of how I installed, bedded pads, changed pads, etc...).





Needless to say I am on the warpath now. Race and endurance runs? It was an HPDE track day you fool. Street application kit? Not according to all of your marketing material. I used two sets of pads and the pads on during the failure are labeled for "racing" on Wilwoods website.

I've printed all of Wilwood's materials and highlighted every mention of competition and racing to prove that a simple track day is not outside of the use of this kit. Ugh...the shit they are going to go through to save themselves maybe $300 or whatever the kit costs them to replace for me.

First off, awesome build so far. This is my first post, but been lurking here thinking about buying a Fiesta..

Apparently these guys don't care about your life! Hope you get it all sorted. Nobody ever wants to take the blame.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I've printed all of Wilwood's materials and highlighted every mention of competition and racing to prove that a simple track day is not outside of the use of this kit. Ugh...the shit they are going to go through to save themselves maybe $300 or whatever the kit costs them to replace for me.

NOT to mention the bad rep/lost sales they will now suffer from people like me who now would rather save up a little more for the above posted ap racing kit, or a Stop Tech, or PF/whatever kit, instead of theirs.

PISS POOR/TOTALLY LACKING customer service!

 

[Accel Junky]

Holy shite, I would be fuming. Hope you can get it ironed out without needing too many walks around the block.

Yeah, not happy at all. I sent a huge PDF scan of all their marketing materials, instructions etc... with highlighted portions and another very thorough email explaining that this was a track day and my car is not a race car. So far the vendor has responded saying they contacted Wilwood and there is nothing they will do. But I had been hearing back from Wilwood directly so I'm waiting to see what their direct response is. Not looking good. Something tells me if these were Brembos or AP Racing they would not be treating me like this.

First off, awesome build so far. This is my first post, but been lurking here thinking about buying a Fiesta..

Apparently these guys don't care about your life! Hope you get it all sorted. Nobody ever wants to take the blame.

Thanks! Yeah, I'm not happy at all with how it is going.

NOT to mention the bad rep/lost sales they will now suffer from people like me who now would rather save up a little more for the above posted ap racing kit, or a Stop Tech, or PF/whatever kit, instead of theirs.

PISS POOR/TOTALLY LACKING customer service!

Exactly. I don't want it to come to that but I will gladly make them hurt more than my kit's worth if they end up leaving me in the dust.

 

[Accel Junky]

Holy shite, I would be fuming. Hope you can get it ironed out without needing too many walks around the block.

Yeah, not happy at all. I sent a huge PDF scan of all their marketing materials, instructions etc... with highlighted portions and another very thorough email explaining that this was a track day and my car is not a race car. So far the vendor has responded saying they contacted Wilwood and there is nothing they will do. But I had been hearing back from Wilwood directly so I'm waiting to see what their direct response is. Not looking good. Something tells me if these were Brembos or AP Racing they would not be treating me like this.

First off, awesome build so far. This is my first post, but been lurking here thinking about buying a Fiesta..

Apparently these guys don't care about your life! Hope you get it all sorted. Nobody ever wants to take the blame.

Thanks! Yeah, I'm not happy at all with how it is going.

NOT to mention the bad rep/lost sales they will now suffer from people like me who now would rather save up a little more for the above posted ap racing kit, or a Stop Tech, or PF/whatever kit, instead of theirs.

PISS POOR/TOTALLY LACKING customer service!

Exactly. I don't want it to come to that but I will gladly make them hurt more than my kit's worth if they end up leaving me in the dust.

 

[Accel Junky]

Finally got the footage from the track day with my best lap. This was right before the brake failure and runoff so I doubt the brakes could've been seized more than 1 lap before the incident.

Note: The Garmin VIRB Elite GPS speed overlay is wonky and not sync'd some times. I wouldn't trust it.

[video=youtube;W2gwKKTMkSs]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W2gwKKTMkSs[/video]

 

[Quasar]

Up until that point the car was brilliant. Could've used more power on straights but I had no problem dispatching 350/370Zs as well as a pesky caged/prepped 987 Cayman that refused to point me by for 1 and a half 20min sessions. I eventually just made an inside pass on him as I was so frustrated. Maybe he was intimidated by the little wonder...

Are you that much better of a driver? I would imagine that stock for stock 350/370Zs and the Cayman would make pretty easy work of our car, but I have no tracking experience.

 

[KKaWing]

Are the dampers keeping up with the Swift Spec-R's?

 

[Accel Junky]

Are you that much better of a driver? I would imagine that stock for stock 350/370Zs and the Cayman would make pretty easy work of our car, but I have no tracking experience.

There are a couple of factors:

1. Driver mod: not everyone out there knows how to take the best line etc...
2. Risk: not everyone out there is willing to push their cars to the edge like I am so they may be conservative (no late braking, not using curbing, etc...)

I'll cut some footage of me tailing this Cayman for many laps without him pointing me by.

Are the dampers keeping up with the Swift Spec-R's?

To be honest, I'm not sure how to know. The car feels pretty good but there is still some body roll. You can even see in the photos how much lean the car is doing. It certainly doesn't feel unusual to me but I'm not sure I know what behaviors to expect from the suspension if the struts are out gunned.

 

[Accel Junky]

Quick update from Wilwood:

Despite me highlighting the "track", "competition", and "race" usage from all over their product descriptions and providing all of that to prove that a track day is suitable use for the brake kit, I've come to a dead end. This is their last response:

Unfortunately, the kit you have, as well as the E compound pad are both primarily geared for street use. Yes, they can be used for light autocross or track day use by some people, but these are not track pads and rotors. Both the standard rotor from the 140-11899 kit and the E compound are not parts we normally recommend for the level of track use/driving capability you are able to achieve. Combine this with the fact that the rotors were already potentially overheated/glazed/worn from the first sessions on the BP-10s, the indended range of use of both the rotors and pads was likely exceeded.

For this reason, we cannot replace everything for you completely free. However, we are happy to extend a deep discount in order to get you our recommended components. We are also willing to have our technicians inspect and rebuild your calipers here at our facility if you?d like.

So the way I see it now I have a few options:

Option A: Repair my existing Wilwoods for about $500-550 but live with burned paint on one caliper (2 new rotor outers, 2 new pistons, 1 wear plate, new pad pins, new street pads, new track pads)
Option B: Sell my Wilwood kit for parts or for someone else to R&R and just buy a new Wilwood kit $720 + $150 (track pads) - $300 (sell) = $570 (maybe rotors can be turned, DIY powdercoat, already has pads etc...)
Option C: Take Wilwood discount offer for the two directional discs and BP40 pads plus buy 2 new pistons, 1 wear plate, new pad pins and new street pads ~$400
Option D: Sell my Wilwood kit for parts (maybe $300 ish), buy another brand's brakes (Maybe the Rotora Street Challenge kit at $1600 or AP racing at like $2300 ish). Probably will be a while before I could justify that much coin.
Option E: See if Wilwood will discount an entire replacement set, sell existing set for parts.
Option F: Send calipers to Wilwood for a rebuild with the Thermlock pistons ($150 per caliper maybe more) + buy new rotor outers and new pads street and track).

I'm leaning towards E followed by B followed by C.

 

[Mchris2725]

Have you considered going with the StopTech brake kit? I watched a youtube video on the DRIVE /Engineered channel where StopTech talked about all technical aspects of good brakes. Might be option G or something lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdX3WdZLXnc&list=PLHa6PXrV-yIhuV00xuw8i-0-9N-0ygfR7

 

[A FISTer]

My question is, would you trust the car with another set of Wilwood BBK on there? It's nice that they offered to rebuild your kit and discount parts, but what they're saying is pretty much in direct contrast to all their marketing material.

FYI you're not the only way who roasted their BBK: http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/9781-Wilwood-BBK-Seized-after-3-track-days

Considering that you seem to push pretty hard on track, personally I'd look elsewhere.

 

[M-Sport fan]

I don't know IF I could trust Wilwood after this (if I were you), and I know that I do NOT, and that they now lost a customer for life (in me).
It's a shame, because they are a U.S. based, and manufactured (for the most part as far as I know) company/product.

I will now live with the factory setup (save for better pads/cooling mods), and save up for an ap Racing, Stop tech, or Performance Friction kit.

 

[Accel Junky]

Have you considered going with the StopTech brake kit? I watched a youtube video on the DRIVE /Engineered channel where StopTech talked about all technical aspects of good brakes. Might be option G or something lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdX3WdZLXnc&list=PLHa6PXrV-yIhuV00xuw8i-0-9N-0ygfR7

Looked at that as well. I would consider them but like many of the other options they are nearly triple the cost of a Wilwood kit (with a mil discount).

My question is, would you trust the car with another set of Wilwood BBK on there? It's nice that they offered to rebuild your kit and discount parts, but what they're saying is pretty much in direct contrast to all their marketing material.

FYI you're not the only way who roasted their BBK: http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/9781-Wilwood-BBK-Seized-after-3-track-days

Considering that you seem to push pretty hard on track, personally I'd look elsewhere.

Yeah this is something I'm struggling with. They performed phenomenally and I know a lot of people use Wilwoods without issues so I am tempted to try them again thinking maybe this was a fluke.

I don't know IF I could trust Wilwood after this (if I were you), and I know that I do NOT, and that they now lost a customer for life (in me).
It's a shame, because they are a U.S. based, and manufactured (for the most part as far as I know) company/product.

I will now live with the factory setup (save for better pads/cooling mods), and save up for an ap Racing, Stop tech, or Performance Friction kit.

Yeah this is pretty disconcerting the way they are handling it. To be honest I'm pretty sure I could make the stock brakes work with upgraded pads but I really liked the significant loss of unsprung weight of the Wilwoods. The other options are pretty pricey in comparison and I've already spent so much money on the car. It's something I'll be weighing over the winter months before my next track day in March.

You drive pretty hard man. Dump them and pick up APs when you have the coin. I definitely won't run them on my car after seeing two documented cases of failure on our platform. Your life is worth $2.5k in brakes. Has anyone seen evidence of OEM brakes roasting like this?

Haven't read up on the OEM brakes but I believe they could work fine with good pads and cooling. I do like the weight loss benefits of aftermarket BBKs though.

Definitely something I'm thinking hard about.