Pierce 2 point front brace VS 6 point?

[Loganwept]

I'm running the front lower 2 point brace right now and just started running stage 3 Cobb 91
I've noticed my traction has lessened. The 2 point was absolutely amazing for stage 1&2 but at stage 3 just doesn't seem to be enough. I'm wondering if anyone has ran both the 2 point and 6 point and can tell me if they feel different?

 

[RAAMaudio]

I took a good look at this long ago and decided a two point was all I was going to need, the car was looked at on a lift by the Ford Race Shop manager at MMP and agreed, he is in charge of dozens of race cars, works with engineers all the time, etc....I just run my $2 DIY bar and it works fine for my needs

One thing over looked is the car comes with subframe braces to the chassis already, the subframe is quite substantially built, it really does not look like there is much room to improve it stock besides a 2 point and some of those I have seen are not that stiff.

If you want far more improvement buy or DIY pour your own filled passenger side engine and transaxle mounts with 2 part urethane then look into urethane suspension bushings, steering rack bushings, etc.....

My build methods follow a different path than many, suspension including bushings, low weight sticky tire and wheel combo, brakes, LSD, engine, trans mounts, minimal added weight so only add braces after I have done all else and I end up hardly ever adding braces and my cars are much faster around a track and weigh less than most all others. And ride great on the street for what they can do on a track.

This car has a very stiff chassis, if I feel it needs to be stiffer in the future I will do the tough job of filling the voids in the chassis with structural urethane foam, nasty stuff, pain in the arse, makes a car feel fully caged and adds barely any weight.

The last one took a whole week to do, 500 liquid oz of foam but when cured barely any weight, lifted a wheel in the rear going up a driveway even though IRS, hurt your hand if shut the door to hard....

The ST lifts a wheel like a dog taking a pee without any braces.

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All that said I did plan to eventually build and test some braces out of curiosity but adding weight is something I do as little of as possible and spend the money on lighter parts instead of adding things instead for all around gains.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I recall reading where somebody had issues with the steering shifting around during autocrosses and fixed it with the 6 point which should help but only for that due to the stock braces not crossed, etc...of course aligning and tightening the subframe to the chassis and then the stock braces should do the job as well.

I dropped the subframe to install aluminum steering rack bushings and though very carefully marked and replaced my steering wheel is slightly off center now which means I did not get it on quite perfect, it is not an easy task to do. I will have to put it on a very competent alignment shops rack and pay for a real alignment as all my best tools are in storage or just live with it for now and there is no way to be sure the factory subframe alignment was correct to begin with. I will have to follow behind it and watch for any signs of dog tracking, where the car is not exactly pointing where it is going, it does not take them being far off to become evident, for now it drives the same going both right and left so if off not very far.

 

[RAAMaudio]

DIY subframe to chassis brace, I think I will make one)

Two pieces of something like mild steel 1" thin wall tubing long enough to cross from chassis to opposite side where the stock braces bolted up.

Put in vice, flatten ends, flatten small area in the middle.

Bolt together loosely, mount on car, tighten ends, tighten middle.

Use existing 2 point brace, all the benefits of the 6 point should be gained with barely any cost and less added weight and no added parts hanging down.

My front brace is just a 1" sq tube angled at the ends, rivnut mounted to the bottom of the subframe, works great, destroyed one hitting something in the road, cost $2 for tubing a scrap yard, 15 minutes later had a new one. I used sq as it is the rear mount for the undertray and a bit of an inverted Guerney Flap.

 

[Loganwept]

Haha that's a lot of info there man!! Thank I'll for sure look into all that as I start tracking my car.

 

[jeffreylyon]

Rick, that was me. I don't think that my cross-member bolts were tight enough from the factory so I was able to shift the x-member under heavy load. I do not think that the 6-point is going to stiffen the x-member over the 2-point any further, but I am very happy with the rigid brace connecting the rear of the x-member to the chassis over the pair of unconnected straight brackets the we get stock. I've had no problems since I've installed the 6-point, but I think that you can achieve exactly the same with the use of Monotune's rear bracket: http://www.mountuneusa.com/mountune-Lower-Chassis-Brace-Fiesta-ST-2013-2016-p/7064-lcb-aa.htm or with Rick's DIY solution in addition to the front bracket that ties together the front LCA bolts.

 

[Loganwept]

If I were going to purchase one is there any advantage between the mountune brace or the pierce brace other than cost?

 

[jeffreylyon]

A complete Monotune setup is two braces, the front between the LCA bolts and the rear. The Pierce 6-point is a single brace. I believe that the Monotune is lower profile. I've lowered my FiST about 1" and have never scraped the Pierce brace, but I'm careful and drive on decent streets. Others may have a difference point of view.

 

[Loganwept]

Gotcha. Thanks for the input!

 

[MeisterR]

Not being a shameless plug (yet), what suspension you are running.
Bracing is good, but one of the major factor on traction is how the loads are being apply to your tires.
That is the main job of the suspension, and the OEM could be lacking in that department.

Brace will stiffen chassis, but it won't change how the load are applied to the tires.

Jerrick

 

[Loganwept]

That is a very good point that I'm supersede I overlooked. I am currently running stock suspension. I do, however, have mountune springs waiting to be installed.

 

[MeisterR]

The main thing that change load to what the tires see is the damper.
Spring rate can be harder, but without the damping force to throw the weight on to the tires, it won't make the tires work harder.
Also, lowering springs that are designed to work with OEM damping force may not do what you need, because they are made with a huge limitation (the OEM dampers).

Not trying to throw a shameless plug, but for what you are trying to accomplish, I will actually look into an adjustable performance coilovers setup.
Because that is the bit that is going to make the difference you are after; more so than what bracing will do for you.

Jerrick

 

[Original J-Pat]

I'm by no means an expert, but how wide are you rims/tires? I'm sure that may also play a factor.

 

[Siestarider]

Have you mounted a stiffer rear roll resistor? If not, that is the first place to look for improving traction.

 

[Loganwept]

I do have a a Cobb rear mount. My signature say all my current mods if you are curious. ????
And I am still running 205s I was also thinking about going 215s

 

[jeffreylyon]

I've read that others claim reduced torque steer and improved traction with suspension bracing. I believe that's 100% placebo effect as stiffer suspension pickup points don't affect the mechanics of either given that the FiST chassis is pretty stiff to begin with. If you're experiencing wheel hop under acceleration then improved dampening will help; I've got the ST XTA setup and experience 0 wheel hop but I didn't experience wheel hop on the stock struts, either.

If you want to increase mechanical traction you should be looking at stickier/wider tires or an LSD. BUT, if you want to increase traction on the track or a/c course, the best mod. is on yourself - seat time, seat time, seat time!

 

[Rhinopolis]

I have all the bracing plus MeisterR coilovers, and I recently added a Pumaspeed X37 from Tune+ who is also tuning me for E30,

With that said, Vdyno shows me at 275 whp (only on 2cd tune file since starting), and torque steer is not an issue but traction in 2cd gear no matter how late in the rev range I go WOT has just become an issue since the X37.

I don't feel the wheel trying to jerk away from my hand, but I can definitely feel my 215/40/17 tires on 7.5" wheels slipping.

 

[jeffreylyon]

I've got the ST XTA coilovers and the PM strut tower and 6-point lower braces, the Cobb RMM, stock wheels and tires and a stage 1 tune. I do feel torque steer in 1st and 2nd, especially after the stage 1 tune removed the boost limit in the first two gears. Maybe you've got enough torque that you blow past torque steer and into wheel slip. The Cobb RMM did not reduce torque steer but it absolutely smoothed out the transition point when I start to pick up the throttle on an exit; I don't feel the engine "roll into" the throttle input like I did with the stock RMM. I'm running 0? of toe and 2.5? of camber, very carefully matched left to right.

I've been out of the FWD performance world for years (my last FWD car was a 1980 Ford Fiesta), but everything that I'm hearing from FWD race car guys is that chassis stiffness tends to increase torque steer rather than cure it as a stiffer chassis does a better job in transmitting both good and bad inputs.

Maybe someone that's gone the LSD route can give us a sense of before and after?

 

[D1JL]

A lot of good info has been posted here.
Each item mentioned does it's own thing to improve the handling of the car.
Yet there are some that say that the car is prefect just the way it comes from Ford.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and what responses they want from their own car.

I enjoy the way my car handles and I have all if not more of the items discussed.

The original question of this thread was "Pierce 2 point front brace VS 6 point?"

I have had the, 2, 4, & 6pt braces on my car and I prefer the 6pt overall.
Where as all tie the two front lower A arm bolts together to prevent slight toe changes under hard acceleration and breaking.
The 6pt ties the complete engine/front suspension sub-frame to the body of the car much better than the OEM straps.

The purpose of this extra bracing is to tie the complete car together much the same as a roll cage does in racecars.
Of course safety is the other key factor of a roll cage but a roll cage is, in many cases not practical in a daily driver.



Dave

 

[Original J-Pat]

A lot of good info has been posted here.
Each item mentioned does it's own thing to improve the handling of the car.
Yet there are some that say that the car is prefect just the way it comes from Ford.
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and what responses they want from their own car.

I enjoy the way my car handles and I have all if not more of the items discussed.

The original question of this thread was "Pierce 2 point front brace VS 6 point?"

I have had the, 2, 4, & 6pt braces on my car and I prefer the 6pt overall.
Where as all tie the two front lower A arm bolts together to prevent slight toe changes under hard acceleration and breaking.
The 6pt ties the complete engine/front suspension sub-frame to the body of the car much better than the OEM straps.

The purpose of this extra bracing is to tie the complete car together much the same as a roll cage does in racecars.
Of course safety is the other key factor of a roll cage but a roll cage is, in many cases not practical in a daily driver.



Dave

I like the safety part you added. I want to improve the car to make safer before adding more HP, but as it seems there is so much info which make it hard to make a decision. For bracing would you say the 6pt is the best option over the mountune underbrace?