x37-47 / 2554-60 / C39 / ST280 - Small Turbo Comparison Thread

[Rhinopolis]

Thanks, guys! I was planning on sending logs to Adam this weekend, and I will check with him 1st to see if he wants to offer a different tune file and before we start tuning with the 2JR.

Def have your tuner check your logs. I had a friend that went from a stock air intake to a 2J intake and because the restriction reduction was so great, his car actually ended up breaking a piston. He saw another 2psi as well. It's a pretty real indicator of the air intakes being a restriction. When your using a 450hp turbo to make 350whp, it's not the end of the word. But when your using a 290whp turbo to try and make 291whp, the little things do add up. No one ever matches my numbers on the OG cyborg because they never ran the same setup as I did with a tuner that didn't have a vested interest in something else.

Based on my experiments with intakes, I believe the 2J is about reducing intake restriction and about pressurizing the intake system. Location at base of windshield is a high pressure location.

Stock intake horn is also in a high pressure location. Comparing stock to 2J it would all be about intake restriction. Compared to using a Mountune air box with lower hose connected to a fog light opening gives two high pressure locations for intake, which my Vdyno logs suggest adds a few hp at the big end by increasing "apparent" boost.

I believe seeing higher boost with 2J (and my Mountune variant) is about intake pressure being positive at the compressor.

Agree with SS, if you are going to edge of tuning, this has to be accounted for by the tune.

 

[Rhinopolis]

Great advice, guys. Adam said to wait until he sends me a revised tune file that we can begin to work from.

 

[re-rx7]

Why buy a 360r kit for 300whp on 93 when you can buy this.......how much cfm is this turbo moving?

 

[Perfblue15]

Why buy a 360r kit for 300whp on 93 when you can buy this.......how much cfm is this turbo moving?

Why settle for a kit limited to 300whp? Especially when you can have one that can make close to 400?

Speaking from experience 300whp in these cars gets boring quick and the go fast Crack pipe hits hard. I would much rather have a 360R kit limited to 300hp only by the stock fuel system. Rather then a hybrid that's basically maxed out at the same power level. Especially, when the 360R kit is an aux fuel kit away from making 380+ whp ? I get it that some people don't want to put up the money for a DHM kit, but you get what you pay for.

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[Based]

Why settle for a kit limited to 300whp? Especially when you can have one that can make close to 400?

Speaking from experience 300whp in these cars gets boring quick and the go fast Crack pipe hits hard. I would much rather have a 360R kit limited to 300hp only by the stock fuel system. Rather then a hybrid that's basically maxed out at the same power level. Especially, when the 360R kit is an aux fuel kit away from making 380+ whp ? I get it that some people don't want to put up the money for a DHM kit, but you get what you pay for.

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Anything can "get boring quick". To me it's about cost to performance ratio. I bet if I had 350whp I would get used to it in a couple days and want more. I think for about $3000 (turbo+intercooler), this is a good option.

 

[re-rx7]

Why settle for a kit limited to 300whp? Especially when you can have one that can make close to 400?

Speaking from experience 300whp in these cars gets boring quick and the go fast Crack pipe hits hard. I would much rather have a 360R kit limited to 300hp only by the stock fuel system. Rather then a hybrid that's basically maxed out at the same power level. Especially, when the 360R kit is an aux fuel kit away from making 380+ whp ? I get it that some people don't want to put up the money for a DHM kit, but you get what you pay for.

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Agree completely. I was being sarcastic. I just don't see how this turbo can do 300 on pump all the while being a lot smaller than the 360r kit. Journal vs ball bearing ect.

 

[Crooked Letta]

Agree completely. I was being sarcastic. I just don't see how this turbo can do 300 on pump all the while being a lot smaller than the 360r kit. Journal vs ball bearing ect.

Turbo's are not magic and when it comes to size it's pretty simple. There are a few things that dictate the flow of a turbo and this is why we look at compressor maps. The 360r kit like states before is not reaching it's limit at 300whp, but the limit of fuel. This comes down to AFR and the ability to supply ample fuel to reach the AFR target at a designated flow. There really is no way to get around this and the only time it becomes a problem is when you run out of fuel or the you run close or beyond the choke line of the turbo. This makes the turbo very inefficient and pumps out very hot air. The X-47 maybe close to it's choke line but from the looks of the boost curve it seems pretty happy still. the 360R kit on the other hand is not near it's choke line and instead the engine has trouble supplying enough fuel.

 

[BoostBumps]

Hey why settle for 350whp when you can eventually upgrade to 400whp or then 450whp and then....

Just an observation but most of these guys are already on their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th turbo upgrades and I don't think will ever truly be satisfied...And really, that's ok for them, however I don't think this represents the majority of folks here looking for a balanced turbo upgrade solution for their daily drivers..

[HR][/HR]
Actually from what I've been hearing for quite some time now is that a good majority of folks (myself included) would find even 260~280whp to be way more than enough and be very contented to stop there...Particularly for those that use their FiSTs as a daily driver with some spirited romps thrown into the mix...Honestly, I'm fairly content with my FiST as is now and I know that if I do choose to take it a step further I wouldn't need nor want anything above ~280whp...

I also like the fact the new x-series hybrid turbo still maintains OEM like spooling which I think is a perfect match for a spirited daily driving experience...And I have not seen any data nor evidence showing that the x-47 would be operating "maxed out" as a few others have speculated...IMO I think this new x-series hybrid is probably the best suited solution for a 1.6L engine FiST currently available...

And finally, what I find very appealing is total cost to get you to say 260~280whp for a daily driver on pump gas...With just an x-47 hybrid turbo, uprated direct fit FMIC, AP, and Tune, total cost would be < $3500...Also interesting to note is that I see no need for ported or upgraded exhaust manifolds, catback exhaust systems, external BOVs, and race IC's for a hybrid turbo to achieve 280~300whp for just a modified daily driver...

Now these are just my personal observations an opinions....YMMV..

And happy modding!

 

[re-rx7]

Turbo's are not magic and when it comes to size it's pretty simple. There are a few things that dictate the flow of a turbo and this is why we look at compressor maps. The 360r kit like states before is not reaching it's limit at 300whp, but the limit of fuel. This comes down to AFR and the ability to supply ample fuel to reach the AFR target at a designated flow. There really is no way to get around this and the only time it becomes a problem is when you run out of fuel or the you run close or beyond the choke line of the turbo. This makes the turbo very inefficient and pumps out very hot air. The X-47 maybe close to it's choke line but from the looks of the boost curve it seems pretty happy still. the 360R kit on the other hand is not near it's choke line and instead the engine has trouble supplying enough fuel.

The garret uses less boost to get 300whp thus doing it on pump. Less boost less heat ect. How is this turbo doing it? Is the compressor that much larger?

 

[Based]

Hey why settle for 350whp when you can eventually upgrade to 400whp or then 450whp and then....

Just an observation but most of these guys are already on their 2nd, 3rd, and 4th turbo upgrades and I don't think will ever truly be satisfied...And really, that's ok for them, however I don't think this represents the majority of folks here looking for a balanced turbo upgrade solution for their daily drivers..

[HR][/HR]
Actually from what I've been hearing for quite some time now is that a good majority of folks (myself included) would find even 260~280whp to be way more than enough and be very contented to stop there...Particularly for those that use their FiSTs as a daily driver with some spirited romps thrown into the mix...Honestly, I'm fairly content with my FiST as is now and I know that if I do choose to take it a step further I wouldn't need nor want anything above ~280whp...

I also like the fact the new x-series hybrid turbo still maintains OEM like spooling which I think is a perfect match for a spirited daily driving experience...And I have not seen any data nor evidence showing that the x-47 would be operating "maxed out" as a few others have speculated...IMO I think this new x-series hybrid is probably the best suited solution for a 1.6L engine FiST currently available...

And finally, what I find very appealing is total cost to get you to say 260~280whp for a daily driver on pump gas...With just an x-47 hybrid turbo, uprated direct fit FMIC, AP, and Tune, total cost would be < $3500...Also interesting to note is that I see no need for ported or upgraded exhaust manifolds, catback exhaust systems, external BOVs, and race IC's for a hybrid turbo to achieve 280~300whp for just a modified daily driver...

Now these are just my personal observations an opinions....YMMV..

And happy modding!

well I just rode in my friend's mazdaspeed 3 and it is making about 300whp and weighs 3300lbs. That thing was pretty fricken fast. I think 300whp in a 2750lbs car would be enough FOR ME and probably most people.

 

[Sourskittle]

This is the spec of a GTX2860 Gen2 turbo. This is the latest, greatest, newest tech from ( in my opinion ) the best turbo charged builder in the world. This tech has been out for 2-6months tops. It uses ball bearings to offer the best response possible. It has HUGE ( by comparison ) compressor housings. It uses HUGE ( by comparison ) turbine/exhaust housing sizes. It has a nice compressor wheel advantage. It has an ENORMOUS TURBINE WHEEL size advantage ( never mind the fact one was designed for a 2001 beetle, and that turbo was 10 or more years old before that ).

My Volvo turbo.... 45x52 turbine 50x65 compressor wheel. Same thing as above. Made roughly 300whp on pump gas with a journal bearing and hugely larger housings over stock. GTX gen1 compressor wheel design.

And that's the comparison you folks are making.... extra fuels and E85 and octane boosting all on the side. We are talking about USDM pump gas here.... A turbo or compressor wheel can be rated at what ever it is. It's up to the end user, there tune, and there supporting hardware to make that rating happen ( and that includes using octane to get there ).

But what I'm expected to swallow is..... this turbo uses incredibly smaller turbine housings and compressor housings, a 10-20 year old turbine, journal bearings, comes on at 2600rpm ( which has inherent issues by its self ), but then continues to make GTX2860 gen2 type power to 7,000rpm ?

Side notes.... I've never seen a MAP sensor spike at the end of a pull. You see these with charge pipe boost references. But just like me ( and I agree you should ) also maybe take everything you hear with a grain of salt instead of built into stone.

I purposely went around posting that X37 results map that was so nicely made out ( by SHOCKER someone on this thread ) and now we are starting to see 250whp X37 results popping up. Not that the X37 can't do better ( Russ has even proven it can ). But we are talking about such a very very narrow bandwidth of power here guys. And if you think a dyno of un-know condition and environment and even type is going to accurately CALCULATE ( aka guess ) what you and I know as typical dyno-jet results ( which is... loose at best ) then I'd have to say I'm being held to one hell of a difference standard of proof/result.

I posted Bronx bomber making 297whp? On E30 with a junk intercooler ( yes... I said it ), in non-20-40 degree temps with a car we personally weighed on a certified scale. And it's like I never even posted it. This was in Florida !!! While at the same time.... it's just picked right, that a car that doesn't even run speed density like our cars, on a dyno non-of us use, using fuel we can't get in the US PERIOD is making nearly 300whp on pump gas....

I mean really.... I felt like I've been as realistic as I possibly could be given the budget I work with. If you run a tune as aggressive as mine with the parts I have with the environment I'm in at the time. If someone chooses to run a weak intercooler or a tune from a competitor because it's the cheapest or isn't willing to push the timing or isn't willing to run the fuel. Then it's on them for not making the leap. But I most def could have done what ever I needed to do to MAKE results, and I promise, I've been around dyno's and cars long enough to make those results "real". But I don't. And I haven't. Bronx bomber, while I realize seemed really bias, what totally ok with shitting on me, lol. And I told him I would be ok with him shitty on me if I didn't meet his expectations. Just so happens he was so happy with it, that he wouldn't let anyone say other wise. So I try to manage expectations while still being realistic. If you just want me to say it, I will. This turbo WILL NOT make 300whp on pump gas 93oct. Much larger and more efficient turbo's have a hard time doing it.

I'm actually not slamming this turbo. I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm sorry.... when you start comparing this turbo, the X37, or the C39 to a freaking state of the art ball bearing beast bad ass like the DHM360....... your just out of line. And when you say the X47 is making 300whp on pump gas and small mods, that's exactly what your saying.

Also since putting "that's my opinion" makes saying anything ok......
"This is all just my opinion, what do I know.... I'm just the guy that builds and sells turbo's for 12 different model vehicles".

One more thing.... LSPI rpm dependent fuel pump.

 

[Based]

Yes, SourSkittle, I agree. I am a bit skeptical. If it seems too good to be true it usually is. But time will tell.

 

[Ish]

I'm actually not slamming this turbo. I'm not saying it's bad. But I'm sorry.... when you start comparing this turbo, the X37, or the C39 to a freaking state of the art ball bearing beast bad ass like the DHM360....... your just out of line. And when you say the X47 is making 300whp on pump gas and small mods, that's exactly what your saying.

Also since putting "that's my opinion" makes saying anything ok......
"This is all just my opinion, what do I know.... I'm just the guy that builds and sells turbo's for 12 different model vehicles".

They were comparing the price not the turbos. Im sure everybody here knows our stock turbo doesnt compare to a gtx2860..
That being said I personally dont think it'll make 300whp on pump gas, maybe 280whp? who knows but ill find out.

 

[OffTheWall503]

I think everyone needs to cool down until there's more definitive data on this turbo on other FiSTs. You can speculate all you want but dynos are the definitive summary on how this turbo performs. I've never seen so many people arguing about a turbo that isn't even available to the general public yet.

 

[MisSTrouble]

Comparing the DHM360 and the X-47 is kind of an apples to oranges thing in my opinion. They're two different turbos marketed to two different prospective buyers with two vastly different power potentials. Let's just pretend for a second that everything Pumaspeed has said is true. That the X-47 is 300whp on 93 and 325whp on E30. That is MAX potential. It can't go any further. Now, the DHM360 is just getting the party started on 93, and with auxiliary fueling is pushing 400whp. That is so far above and beyond the X-47 that it's ridiculous to compare the two. The X-47 should be compared to other hybrids such as the C39 and that's it.
Like I said earlier, the two turbos are marketed to two different buyers. Using the 3 Rule (cheap, reliable, and fast), the X-47 and its hybrid ilk are aimed at people who want cheap, reliable power that will make them quick, but not necessarily fast (there is a difference).
The DHM360 is for the people who wanna be fast and reliable, at the cost of possibly your firstborn child. Those who want to turn their FiST into reliable "giant slayers" and have deep pockets need look no further than Russ's kits.
With all that being said, Imma get me a hybrid. I've been fast before, and I didn't buy my FiST with the intention on making it fast. Making it quick is good enough for me. I'm just waiting until all the testing settles down to make my choice. Anyway, just my $0.02

 

[Based]

I think everyone needs to cool down until there's more definitive data on this turbo on other FiSTs. You can speculate all you want but dynos are the definitive summary on how this turbo performs. I've never seen so many people arguing about a turbo that isn't even available to the general public yet.

I think it's more of the competition trying to sway people to their product. And also people that have other turbos and are trying to back up what they bought.

 

[Sourskittle]

On a lighter note...
I'm with the 280whp crowd lol. I've had 360whp cheap with some lag.
I'll take 280whp factory fit and no lag for cheap.
I'd love to have 380whp not really cheap, and almost no lag. But I can't get around the price ( personally ), not because it's a poor price, but because it's beyond my budget. And on top of that.... No matter how good the rest of the car is, when you ask an average of 340whp from the car at all times ( or an average of 380whp at all times with me driving lol ). There are bound to be something's that wear faster on a 175whp stock car lol.

I'm done working on the engine, lol. I want to waste my life on dumb stuff like BRAKES, and interior mods, and.... god for bid, WHEELS ( yuk lol ).


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[kali323]

You wouldn't know.... you used the cheapest tuning option available period. And you were warned 100% before hand that taking the route would yield the results you achieved. You cut yourself short.

Didnt with russ full support a c39 made like 260 but a x37 made 284whp??. 3+ months and some cant even get their cars tuned but yet adam had no problem lol

Show me some real numbers. Not some fake inaccurate vdyno crap

 

[DHM1]

Only speaking on things i know from factual data and simple math. There is alot of close minded arguing people need to look at the bigger picture. I speak for most of my customers that have come from other turbo cars, other turbo set ups on their car and customers that call crying over failures. You get what you pay for.

DHM GTX360r Turbo kit

300-310whp 300-320wtq on 93oct
370-390whp 350-370wtq on e45 (Stock engine)
410-430whp 380-390wtq on e45 (Built engine)

Spool
3rd gear 3350-3500rpm
4th Gear 3100-3250rpm

Low Exhaust Gas pressure, Lower EGT?s, extremely efficient if at high altitudes or high density altitude (HOT climates), No Gaskets, No Bolts to strip out, Material and turbo working in its ORIGINAL designed configuration.

Cost $4200
Comes with:
DHM Manifold
DHM Downpipe
DHM Wastegate Dump
DHM Hot Side Charge Pipe
DHM Tune
Garrett GTX2860r Gen2
Tial Q BOV
Tial Stainless Steel Exhaust Housing
Tial MVS EWG
Large Intake Adapter
Plus All stainless coolant and oil lines, and everything else for complete install


Hybrid turbo

High exhaust gas pressure, Higher EGT?s, Higher charge air temps, loss of power at high altitudes or high density altitude (HOT climates), Problematic DP and manifold bolts, Turbo?s oiling system is not designed for the type of shaft load, these issues will arise over time.

Cost $1200-1500 (with intake adapter)
Down pipe $180-$375
Turbo Smart Actuator $150
BOV/DV $140-200
Manifold $700
Hot Side Charge pipe $110
Tune $150-275

Total $2630-3310

 

[DHM1]

Didnt with russ full support a c39 made like 260 but a x37 made 284whp??. 3+ months and some cant even get their cars tuned but yet adam had no problem lol

Show me some real numbers. Not some fake inaccurate vdyno crap

The x37 was on a really good set up and was also -1000 DA lol it was like 32deg ambiant

This is the only C39 i have tuned on a chassis dyno. Stock Air box, Stock exhuast, and factory fit intercooler. Also the car did have a boost leak. Prob 10whp on the table max with that set up. We will hit the dyno again soon with exhuast, not stock air box and a bigger intercooler.

Stage2 plus ST280 93oct e30 by Russell Culver, on Flickr