x37-47 / 2554-60 / C39 / ST280 - Small Turbo Comparison Thread

[Hijinx]

Hey Hijinx. What did you put down Vdyno or real dyno, when you had your Cyborg?

Best was somewhere between 230whp and 240whp on E30 in vDyno. It's been a very long time and I can't remember clearly... I didn't have a very dedicated tuner at the time; Panda was going through a rough transition.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

 

[WeTheNorth]

I've been thinking of which turbo upgrade to go with for sometime now. The X-37 seems to be the flavor of the month right now. Comparing the cyborg to the X-37, the cyborg looks to have the advantage when comparing hardware. There is plenty of recent documentation on the X-37 from various forum members who have shared there results. However, the X-37 seems to make more power from what I've seen posted. Sour Skittles has tuned the Cyborg to the ragged edge and made food power, but I want to know what I can expect running 93 as well as E-30. You don't see too much documentation from cyborg owners. I like that the cyborg is made by Sour Skittle's. He's a local guy and he puts out a quality product. He's been a great contributor to our forum and he is local to me. I have lifetime tunes with Adam at Tune+ So it would be easy for me to go the X-37 route. What I want to know is which turbo would make the most power when tuned appropriately. Adam tunes the x-37 and he does a great job because he is very familiar with it and it would behoove him and his business to do a good job tuning them. As of right now, I don't know of anyone who really tunes the cyborg and is familiar with it. Adam has toned a few, but it is probably counter productive to tune the cyborg as it is the direct competitor to the X-37. I'd like to know which one would be best for me. I'm full stage III, just look at my Sig. I'd like to make 280 WHP on E30 or E40 & 260 WHP on 93. If I went to cyborg route, I'm not sure who would tune it. Don't know if Russ @ DHM still tunes other turbos or if he just tunes the ones people purchase from him. Basically I'd like to see a full comparison of the cyborg and the X-37 so that I can make a better decision. Adam is my tuner so the X-37 would be easy in that regard. Sour Skittle's makes the cyborg and he's local to me as well as I like the fact that he does these himself and he's not some corporate entity. So there's some stuff to think about

Exactly what I wanted to say and how I feel!! Just super busy lately, kudos man

 

[WeTheNorth]

Best was somewhere between 230whp and 240whp on E30 in vDyno. It's been a very long time and I can't remember clearly... I didn't have a very dedicated tuner at the time; Panda was going through a rough transition.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

Is it even with it to go cyborg then I. General? I will be doing this on 94 octane (shit gas from chev) I mean if some are making 215 from stage 3 , why spend all this money for 15 more hp? Or am I not understanding this all together? I'm in no rush, got s couple months til I decide which way to go. Can't go DHM ,but can find a happy medium, cheers

 

[Hijinx]

X-37 Hybrid, ATP 2554, 2560, Cyborg Questions

Is it even with it to go cyborg then I. General? I will be doing this on 94 octane (shit gas from chev) I mean if some are making 215 from stage 3 , why spend all this money for 15 more hp? Or am I not understanding this all together? I'm in no rush, got s couple months til I decide which way to go. Can't go DHM ,but can find a happy medium, cheers

Here's the truth and unfortunately, it's not wrapped in a nice, pretty box with a bow on top:

Everyone's car is different; every dyno is different. Everyone's needs/wants are different. It's ALWAYS going to boil down to those factors.

I dyno'd 199whp at Stage 3. Of course a lot has changed since then; tuners have more knowledge and are producing more powerful tunes... However, it still remains that my car doesn't like to put out. There's a suspicion that timing isn't set the same out of the factory, but who really knows?

Anyway, unless I'm trying to sell you something it's impossible to get anymore specific than that. At least when it comes to the hybrids. And trust me, there are some wolf tickets being sold.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

 

[frankiefiesta]

Is it even with it to go cyborg then I. General? I will be doing this on 94 octane (shit gas from chev) I mean if some are making 215 from stage 3 , why spend all this money for 15 more hp? Or am I not understanding this all together? I'm in no rush, got s couple months til I decide which way to go. Can't go DHM ,but can find a happy medium, cheers

The difference is the increase in HP over a specific RPM range. I can find examples for you, or you can look yourself. Whether cyborg, x37, or big turbo, the biggest increase is at the top of the RPMs. Stock turbo does off after 5000rpms. You can take any other turbo to 7000+ and still be pulling hard. If you look at the increase at 7000rpms in the stock turbo vs any other turbo you will see an increase of 90+ horsepower. That's the beauty of it. Not peak hp, the increase at the top

 

[Sekred]

>Boost plus >Timing >> Power >

 

[WeTheNorth]

What you won't see is how tapped out MS67s car probably is to make that kind of power. Adam would never allow the datazap to be seen.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

Well, I'm not looking to have my cars reliability on the edge just for max power. Just looking for more power/ linear power, This is getting hard now, was easier last week. I personally like how things can be customized ewg etc with SS but power does play a part. But reliable power, atleast for me

 

[Hijinx]

Well, I'm not looking to have my cars reliability on the edge just for max power. Just looking for more power/ linear power, This is getting hard now, was easier last week. I personally like how things can be customized ewg etc with SS but power does play a part. But reliable power, atleast for me

There are people here who hope you are not a well informed consumer. They spend some of their time manufacturing hype instead of providing actual information. A well informed consumer is bad for the bottom line. I was censored in the other thread, but I believe that both the X37 and Cyborg are reliable if you're not tuning for 300whp. It fits a niche just before big turbo. You want a reliable 250whp? Either of these are great... You want a reliable 270whp+? As I've said before, 270 is probably the max reliable point, but there is no magic number.

I know it's a lot, but read SS's Cyborg thread. He doesn't hide anything. A lot of that information is shared with the X37 because of the nature of the hybrids.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

 

[WeTheNorth]

There are people here who hope you are not a well informed consumer. They spend some of their time manufacturing hype instead of providing actual information. A well informed consumer is bad for the bottom line. I was censored in the other thread, but I believe that both the X37 and Cyborg are reliable if you're not tuning for 300whp. It fits a niche just before big turbo. You want a reliable 250whp? Either of these are great... You want a reliable 270whp+? As I've said before, 270 is probably the max reliable point, but there is no magic number.

I know it's a lot, but read SS's Cyborg thread. He doesn't hide anything. A lot of that information is shared with the X37 because of the nature of the hybrids.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

Hey look, I appreciate your feedback on this BIG time! If these are equal, why is the X-37 making more power on every fuel type? I'm just doing my research , I favor no particular person or vendor. I followed SS thread when I first got my car but just like some said his offering doesn't offer a lot of numbers from people running his kit vs the 37.

X37 owners are posting numbers and it might just be a hype but I can't say for sure but are we even allowed to say what we think!? I missed your posting you're referring to (which blows) truth should be transparent , I don't understand all the censoring on this forum...

From what I've seen thus far , SS cyborg is more customizable and has more to offer but then why is the x37 making more power?? I would love 260 on 93oct.

 

[Hijinx]

Hey look, I appreciate your feedback on this BIG time! If these are equal, why is the X-37 making more power on every fuel type? I'm just doing my research , I favor no particular person or vendor. I followed SS thread when I first got my car but just like some said his offering doesn't offer a lot of numbers from people running his kit vs the 37.

X37 owners are posting numbers and it might just be a hype but I can't say for sure but are we even allowed to say what we think!? I missed your posting you're referring to (which blows) truth should be transparent , I don't understand all the censoring on this forum...

From what I've seen thus far , SS cyborg is more customizable and has more to offer but then why is the x37 making more power?? I would love 260 on 93oct.

Adam (Tune+) has a vested interest in the X37. That is why. SS has made big power on the Cyborg and as he'll tell you, he's not a tuner.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

 

[Rhinopolis]

There are people here who hope you are not a well informed consumer. They spend some of their time manufacturing hype instead of providing actual information. A well informed consumer is bad for the bottom line. I was censored in the other thread, but I believe that both the X37 and Cyborg are reliable if you're not tuning for 300whp. It fits a niche just before big turbo. You want a reliable 250whp? Either of these are great... You want a reliable 270whp+? As I've said before, 270 is probably the max reliable point, but there is no magic number.

I know it's a lot, but read SS's Cyborg thread. He doesn't hide anything. A lot of that information is shared with the X37 because of the nature of the hybrids.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

How would you personally monitor for a safe tune on a uprated turbo? I have always monitored ignition correction, knock, and AFR.

If my ignition corrections (Cylinders 1-4) stay in line with one another and are smooth, my AFR under WOT is in a safe range, and if I am not seeing knock during WOT, then I see this as a successful tune.

What else should we be looking for?

 

[Rhinopolis]

Hey look, I appreciate your feedback on this BIG time! If these are equal, why is the X-37 making more power on every fuel type? I'm just doing my research , I favor no particular person or vendor. I followed SS thread when I first got my car but just like some said his offering doesn't offer a lot of numbers from people running his kit vs the 37.

X37 owners are posting numbers and it might just be a hype but I can't say for sure but are we even allowed to say what we think!? I missed your posting you're referring to (which blows) truth should be transparent ,I don't understand all the censoring on this forum...

From what I've seen thus far , SS cyborg is more customizable and has more to offer but then why is the x37 making more power?? I would love 260 on 93oct.

I dislike when forums start getting accusatory and when people build their vendor preferences and start throwing mud at one another. Let the results speak for themself, and the reliability of the product over time speak for itself as well.

No one vendor or product will ever be perfect, and we are fortunate to have so many options. Do your research, talk with each vendor about their product, and ask good questions related only to their product and service. After you do this, and if you can't make your mind up on which product and vendor is right for you, then maybe it's not time yet and more time for analysis is needed.

 

[MS67]

What you won't see is how tapped out MS67s car probably is to make that kind of power. Adam would never allow the datazap to be seen.


Scent from Glade Air Freshener

I wouldn't say it's tapped out. I have positive and consistent ignition corrections across the board, and I need a stiffer wastegate spring to get the most out of the turbo because boost is falling up top. If you want a screenshot of the datazap, I'd be glad to share. The car made around 250whp on 93...keep in mind the temps and humidity here in FL are through the roof as well.

 

[Hijinx]

How would you personally monitor for a safe tune on a uprated turbo? I have always monitored ignition correction, knock, and AFR.

If my ignition corrections (Cylinders 1-4) stay in line with one another and are smooth, my AFR under WOT is in a safe range, and if I am not seeing knock during WOT, then I see this as a successful tune.

What else should we be looking for?

I wouldn't say it's tapped out. I have positive and consistent ignition corrections across the board, and I need a stiffer wastegate spring to get the most out of the turbo because boost is falling up top. If you want a screenshot of the datazap, I'd be glad to share. The car made around 250whp on 93...keep in mind the temps and humidity here in FL are through the roof as well.

For both of you... Global timing and Wastegate duty cycle.



Scent from Glade Air Freshener

 

[Rhinopolis]

For both of you... Global timing and Wastegate duty cycle.



Scent from Glade Air Freshener

What specifically would one look for?

 

[MS67]

Timing reaches just over 16 degrees at the top of the RPM range and WGDC works up to 98% as boost drops, but my car isn't exactly an ideal example because my wastegate spring isn't stiff enough. Will update once my stiffer spring is installed.

 

[Hijinx]

What specifically would one look for?

As a disclaimer, I'm not a tuner so take this with a grain of salt... If your timing is low up top and your WGDC is 100% all the time, you're tapping out. On a related note, knock sensors can be made less sensitive to knock, which would look great on paper.

 

[Hijinx]

Timing reaches just over 16 degrees at the top of the RPM range and WGDC works up to 98% as boost drops, but my car isn't exactly an ideal example because my wastegate spring isn't stiff enough. Will update once my stiffer spring is installed.

Timing is good, then. What's your airflow look like? Do you know how sensitive your knock sensors are?

 

[MS67]

Timing is good, then. What's your airflow look like? Do you know how sensitive your knock sensors are?

Are you referring to MAF airflow in Lb/min? And I have no idea about the knock sensors, perhaps that would be a question Adam could answer.

 

[Tune+]

As a disclaimer, I'm not a tuner so take this with a grain of salt... If your timing is low up top and your WGDC is 100% all the time, you're tapping out. On a related note, knock sensors can be made less sensitive to knock, which would look great on paper.

"If timing is low up top and WGDC is 100% you are tapping out."

You are right, you aren't a tuner. You also have no experience with the X-37, and you also have a vendetta so anything you say about the turbo should be taken with more than a grain of salt, maybe this would be more fitting.

So, if timing is low, and WGDC is 100%... well let's have a look.

This is from Daniel Newman's car, which features a X-37, 93oct, and my actuator.



So 35% WGDC left on the table, and timing looks pretty decent. I mean I could crank up timing more up top as it is low load and would take it, however there would be no point.

Your definition of "tapped out" is so ambiguous it's ridiculous. You have to know what one's setup consists of in order to make such a claim. I could put a 25psi wastegate actuator on a turbo, and have 0% wgdc and according to your definition of tapped out I would have MILES of room left. You know, the turbo might not be efficient at those boost levels I could achieve with sub 20% WGDC with a 25psi actuator, but at least I won't be tapped out. [/sarcasm]

BTW, the factory map sensors are tapped out before the turbo is. I have ran this turbo up to 29psi in testing and it was still making power and held airflow mass. Airflow mass is inferred so that is something you should take with a grain of salt, it gives you some data but doesn't paint a full picture. By no way I'm I saying this is what one should do. This turbo has a limit of about 300whp, and it has taken about 27psi to get there. The efficiency range of this turbo is about 25psi, which nets 265-280whp depending on the fuel and configuration.

As far as your comment on knock sensors, 100% of my tunes are at 9.8 multiplier. This .2% reduction from the standard 10.00 multiplier is to account for rear motor mounts that can induce false knock. A far cry from the other calibrators that I have had conversations with that reduce as far as 8.0 which is just silly. There are ways to determine false knock with actual knock, so the person doing the tuning should know these tricks before making any changes to the multiplier or the amount of timing that can be reduced.

Regarding airflow, again this is inferred. However 30lb/min = 300whp in the age old rule of thumb. This is from the same car above, this is 30lb/min at 25psi.



I have tuned the following setups (multiples of each)

ATP - ALL, including GT and GTX.
GT2554R in a DHM quickspool configuration (Stephen)
GT2560R in a DHM quickspool configuration (Tim)
GT2860R in a DHM quickspool configuration (Jonathan)
Billet GT2860R (Custom compressor wheel, not a GTX) in a DHM quickspool configuration. (RAAMaudio)
Cyborg in both included IWG, EWG, and with my actuator.
Peron EFR Turbo Kit
Pumaspeed GT kit
Custom Volvo 19T with Billet Comp wheel upgrade

I should be the one making claims and giving data about all the different turbo's available but it really doesn't make sense for me to. I like each one for different things, and I don't give a sub-par tune because I don't like a certain turbo and I don't tell people to not run a certain turbo. Well, ok I lied don't ever run a ATP GTX2867R on a Fiesta. I recommend different turbos based on what the customer is looking to do. If one looking for big power (320whp+) and not concerned with spool, I'm not going to recommend a X-37, it just isn't going to make the power they are looking for. About 85% of my customer base is looking for something to retain the fun factor of the Fiesta. You didn't purchase this car to drive around in a laggy hot hatch, you purchased it because you like the torque, handling, and overall RESPONSE from the vehicle.

However everyone wants more power, and without sacrificing what you initially purchased the car for the X-37 is what I'm going to recommend everytime. I didn't come to the conclusion overnight that this was the best suited turbo for the customer base above, I took the feedback from the many customers I have calibrated that ran other turbo kits on their Fiesta. As a result of my testing, there has been at least 5 people that have purchased the X-37 from me that have switched from another turbo of some sort because they weren't happy.

Anyways, I don't have time to run through this entire thread and make comments on other misinformed post. If anyone has questions about any turbo kit and how it compares to the X-37 please feel free to email me at info@adamtuned.com. I will give you factual information of what you will get with any combination.

Thank you.