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x37-47 / 2554-60 / C39 / ST280 - Small Turbo Comparison Thread
- Thread starter antarctica24
- Start date
OP
Thread Starter
#22
Thread Starter
#22
I don't know, if I had developed a process for tuning vehicles, if I had done the work, why would I share it with someone like yourself? If memory recall Adam runs a business. He earned the right to say his stuff is proprietary. If you want the information start your own tuning business. What part have you done other than act like a know it all. You are not qualified to help anyone and it's not your job. I am not pretending to know anything about this car. I know odb2 and I know map tuning is very old technology and extremely unreliable. I absolutely know very little about turbo based vehicles. I'm just now starting to understand the relationship between the bov and the wastegate. Everything about this car and how it's makinging power is completely different than what have done before. I don't want to be an expert on this vehicle. I see no need to go through that process again. But when I did tune my car I didn't guess. I took classes from industry experts so that I could understand what I was doing. Then elinsted the help of tuners around the globe to continue to educate me so I could be the best tuner on my vehicle. I didn't go around trying to help anyone. The only thing I will be an expert in on this vehicle will be how to ake it sound good. I simply said driven what I have driven on this vehicle I have more experience in this car than anyone else on this forum. That would be an undisputed fact. It does not make me an expert on the vehicle, it does make me an expert in how the vehicle handles, responds, and drives whith the current parts on the car and in stock form. We could probably add to that had more different tires on this vehicle. As for the MAF you have got to get a life. I could be wrong it certainly won't be the first time and I'm certain it won't be the last. But I'm not ever going to take the word of someone like yourself. Your not qualified to make that conclusion. Getting logs and understanding are two completely different things. It was your beloved Cobb that posted a video showing how the engine was banging into the firewall. I never said that. I said I bought a rmm because the likes of you saying they were necessary. It made the car worse regarding drivability. Then you and a couple others said I was crazy that there was no way the rmm could have made my car worse. Like I'm incapable of feeling when my car is shaking or not. You also said bolting on parts made no difference in power without a tune, wrong again. While I screwed up by not making a base run, my car is not 23 ft lbs better than every other fiesta built. Every reputable tuner I have ever talked to says exhaust on blown vehicle adds power. Every single one, but you. So do yourself a favor, block my posts from your view and quit wasting your time. Your not interested in anything I have to say and the feelings are completely mutual.
Again, thank you for your comments as always their so useful. NOT.
Again, thank you for your comments as always their so useful. NOT.
OP
Thread Starter
#23
Thread Starter
#23
On the flip-side, I do think that more people should do actual dyno work. The FoST community has significantly more 'legitimate' dyno charts to comb through. I don't know why we want to only limit this to four turbros, but the sky isn't the limit here so I understand why we would want to limit our choices.
Btw, where exactly are all of your dyno charts that you've spent money on and shared?
Btw, where exactly are all of your dyno charts that you've spent money on and shared?
Are you having a memory lapse? You don't remember going over this? You told me the graph was full of shit. Run 2 was my base run. It had the FMIC, Charge pipes, changed BOV location, Exhaust, CAI, Velossa Big Mouth, and while I did not get a run prior to installing everything, I admitted my bad, doing as you and others had suggested, searching the entire forum, no one has numbers to match my run 2 in stock forum. The average I found on the forum was 183, and 212. My run 2 was on an UNTUNED VEHICLE. So while 100% benefit was not achieved, there were power gains over a completely stock car.
I drove over 200 miles and paid my 75.00 to get the data. Why? Because reliable data is extremely important. So much more than spending money uselessly without knowing the benefit. It is more likely that those that don't share are either too embarrassed to share because their efforts did not backup the spending, or they are not making the power they are claiming. And once again, why go onto a forum, a community of peers, and say, Im going to install this, or that, and not show the benefit so others can choose to do the same? That's great that you have all these wonderful plans. But saying Im going to install a bigger turbo, and then not want to know the benefit. Now you've made me go back to what I originally said. Retarded.
Run 5 was changing the tune from a stock tune to a COBB Stage 1 OTS tune. You don't remember saying, "You don't need any of those bolt on's to get the same power"? That was you. And your probably right, but that was not the purpose of our conversation then was it? It was you said no power gains from just bolting stuff on the car. WRONG WRONG WRONG and oh yeah WRONG. 1 hp is a gain. 1 ft lb of torque is a gain. I got more than 1 FT LB of torque gain from putting the stuff on the car, and I also said, I was willing to bet that 90% of it came from adding the exhaust.
OP
Thread Starter
#24
Thread Starter
#24
Rick, Its good to hear from you man, thank you for the feedback. That is great news. I didn't run the recirc back into the exhaust but I did put a 6" rubber hose on the end of it, that made it substantially quieter. I cant remember, is this your custom built turbo or did you go with something else. You've experimented with so many different ones its hard to keep track sometimes.
For Dyn085, Rick is qualified to make VD runs, and I completely trust every word that comes out of his mouth and anyone else interested should do the same.
For Dyn085, Rick is qualified to make VD runs, and I completely trust every word that comes out of his mouth and anyone else interested should do the same.
The only undisputed fact is that you have a high-mileage car. That, in and of itself, does not make you an expert in any way, shape, or form. You're quick to call everyone else an idiot and try to force people to respect things you say but then repeatedly say things that are blatantly wrong and don't live up to the expectations that you're demanding of everyone else. That said a lot, but not in a good way.
Anyone with any experience at all knows that dynamometers all require a baseline in order to quantify delta gains. They all know that dynos read differently, and they all know that results can be skewed-intentionally or accidentally-and that they're not comparable unless you are literally strapping the cars to the same dyno at similar times on the same day with the same operator.
Very few people did a baseline dyno on their stock car before throwing on their turbo in order to quantify the delta. Even fewer are going to have the same supporting modifications to make the dyno comparable to turbo-only. Hell, even you don't have a baseline that can qualify anything other than running results.
You don't have to listen to what the experienced users have to say but the least you can do is stop being a hypocrite and follow your own advice. You've spent a lot on your car now, just take all of your mods off and get a baseline, then come back with your delta after your X-37 install.
Anyone with any experience at all knows that dynamometers all require a baseline in order to quantify delta gains. They all know that dynos read differently, and they all know that results can be skewed-intentionally or accidentally-and that they're not comparable unless you are literally strapping the cars to the same dyno at similar times on the same day with the same operator.
Very few people did a baseline dyno on their stock car before throwing on their turbo in order to quantify the delta. Even fewer are going to have the same supporting modifications to make the dyno comparable to turbo-only. Hell, even you don't have a baseline that can qualify anything other than running results.
You don't have to listen to what the experienced users have to say but the least you can do is stop being a hypocrite and follow your own advice. You've spent a lot on your car now, just take all of your mods off and get a baseline, then come back with your delta after your X-37 install.
OP
Thread Starter
#26
Thread Starter
#26
That is a very hard argument to get around. The argument of why would you care? I mean no disrespect when I say this, I think what it comes down to is the whole forum sharing experience thing. Some people might be like yourself and others who are just content on upgrading their car to make it a more personal statement, and if they like what it does, they are good to go and really don't care much more than that and probably don't care what others think either. But psychologically, whether you admit or not, you joined the forum to belong to a bigger community than just one, yourself. You joined to share in the experience of other fiesta st owners, and the joy the car brings from driving, and from the modifications you do and sharing those experiences with others. It is so not about justifying money spent, although I can see why you would think that was where I was going, but its not. What I was trying to convey was if your going to join a community of fellow fiesta st owners, create a thread showing off everything you've done, why would you not want to create or stipulate what the benefit was power wise if you made power modifications? You may be right to some extent, who cares? But when you go to the trouble to spend the money, because you had it to waste, and it is a waste and forever diminishing returns, where you could have just invested that money into your retirement, others in the community that you joined, may want to upgrade their vehicle but don't have the extended income you have. So making the choice of what to do, then becomes a price vs perception situation. aka "What am I getting for what I am spending" Every dollar matters, and they want to participate in the club they joined and be an active part of the community. Not just join a forum and listen to a bunch of people who upgraded their cars to make more power, more fun, more anything. They can get that from reading, superstreet, or car and driver. They want to participate in doing the same to their own and want to do it without spending any more than they have to. Going to a dyno is part of the experience. It is thrilling, exciting, scary all at the same time. While I did not drive this car on the dyno at National Speed, they have one guy that does that. Keeping it consistent, which I liked. I did drive my TA on the dyno the first time and it scared the hell out of me. They rolled my car onto this thing and then lifted it 6 feet off the ground and backed up onto the rollers. It took 6 heavy duty tiedowns, and 2 guys sitting in the back trunk to keep the car still. It was walking all over the place. It was loud, and you could feel the motor pulsating through you as it reved. It was awesome. Sorry, anyway. It is part of the experience. I could have bought any car I wanted under 70,000. But look at what I was doing for a job. Im in the car everyday, driving 200-400 everyday. I drove just about every performance car I could under $70K within sensible reasoning before I ended up with the Fiesta. I actually signed the paperwork for a loaded focus st. They were getting from another dealer over the thanksgiving weekend after that dumbass totaled my focus. I chose the car because of the performance vs gas mileage. Some people here bought the car because of price vs performance and they want to upgrade but don't know which direction to go, and then you have so many different opinions and no real data to back them up.
As a side note, I was on the verge of buying a crate 2.3 ecoboost and slapping it in the 4 door focus. I am no stranger to just doing whatever it takes to make it work and for no other reason than just because. Sorta like Rick, but I suspect his purpose is probably more reasonable. I spent over 70K building that Trans Am, and I sold it for 20K to my partners friend in Australia so he could develop a twin turbo for the F-body. From reading apparently, there are a lot of LS1 people buying these cars, though mine was a C5-R, same architecture.
So to answer your question, that is why I think its important.
As a side note, I was on the verge of buying a crate 2.3 ecoboost and slapping it in the 4 door focus. I am no stranger to just doing whatever it takes to make it work and for no other reason than just because. Sorta like Rick, but I suspect his purpose is probably more reasonable. I spent over 70K building that Trans Am, and I sold it for 20K to my partners friend in Australia so he could develop a twin turbo for the F-body. From reading apparently, there are a lot of LS1 people buying these cars, though mine was a C5-R, same architecture.
So to answer your question, that is why I think its important.
OP
Thread Starter
#27
Thread Starter
#27
I actually don't care if you respect anything I say or not. I am offering up an opinion. People can choose to take what I say with whatever grain of salt they choose. I buy something, I try something, I report something. And driving 165K miles on a car, almost living in the car everyday and doing it in less than 3 years makes me an expert on how the car handles stock, and how it has responded with what I have done to it. That is a lot of seat of pants or butt feel. So much that I can tell you how different the car feels on a high or low barometer day, how the stock suspension reacts over smooth versus rough terrain, how it accelerates, brakes, corners, shifts, and high speed reverse more so than anyone here. I am wiling to cave on the baseline and using my tune 2 as my baseline, even though anyone with any intelligence can look at it, and say, no one has those numbers stock from FORD FIESTA ST. NO ONE. Therefore, something I installed made the increase, and since the most intelligent thing would be the exhaust because it is a turbo car, I am willing to go with that.
Now, for the other thing you mentioned, why only 4 turbos. Because I did my research on this and the other ST forums amongst other car forums on the turbos in question. Before I say this, I want to follow up on the cyborg. I think Bryan makes a fantastic product. I think Bryan is very knowledgeable and have zero problem trusting anything he says. Even if Bryan was not rebuilding these turbos himself, which I believe he is, he knows enough about it to delegate to a company to get it done for him and that is good enough for me. I have manufactured clutches for the high performance world, so I get it. I am different in that I don't like hearing my car. When you are into audio, any noise other than the sound of music is annoying and in the way. So keeping the car as quiet as possible is job 1. Goal was to make as much power as possible as quietly as possible without having to mess with the fuel system or engine. I have been there, done that, and it gets really freaking expensive, and reliability goes down the drain and then it gets so sensitive your constantly having to mess with it. Could not afford to do that with my job. I needed reliable transportation. Adam offered up the Cyborg, and X-37. It was ultimately my choice, but the X-37 offered a solution with less modification and quicker turn around time. Between the Cyborg, and X-37 we are probably splitting hairs in the grand scheme, and should the X-37 with adam's tune make more HP or less HP than the Cyborg, it changes nothing in regards to my respect of Bryan and his product and what he has achieved and what the future holds for him and his product. He is a one man show, and he cannot mass produce what he's doing at the moment, but as his business grows which I am sure it will, he will get there. Anytime anyone ask me what turbo would I recommend, I say, based on what I have read, the cyborg deserves a very serious look. I say it all the time. Price vs performance. It is an incredible deal. If you can afford to wait and send him your turbo first, it is a stupid good deal based on what you get.
The four turbos chosen, we not necessarily the only options, but based on my extensive experience putting High Horsepower engines in dinky small cars, There is only so much metal, and the chassis is only going to take so much. A buddy of mine out of Michigan dropped a LSX 900hp motor in a solstice. he talked about it going sideways up the highway. You can do it all day, doesn't mean its safe, and doesn't mean it is reliable. He knew it when he did it. So, I really believe, now note, that word implies opinion and I can only offer an opinion based on my experience. You produce a fiesta st making 350WHP and 350 FT TORQUE from what a dyno would say, and they have over 50,000 miles on it, that would become the proof that it works and works reliably for daily driving. TORQUE puts an enormous amount of stress on a chassis. Nope, I have no data to back that up other than the National Safety and Transportation Board, or Indy, or IRL, or Nascar. You add support braces to do what???...Class???? Add support, that's right, very good. Its called reinforcement. So either it adds benefit or we have another cobb in your opinion, selling unneeded product.
So as I said to tWolf, those who would want to upgrade their vehicle but not go to the outer extremes as say, Rick, or Rodmoe, or I even think Hijinx has like a 2867 which is high up on the food chain, He drives It every day, but how far, how long, how hard, (no need for him to chime in), If he is racing, more stress on the body, after 30,000 miles of that kind of stress, lets put his car on a frame alignment machine, and see If it is still in spec. If it is, then he has proven his point that the body can handle it. Though not sure hes making all that much power anyway. I though I read something about he said 240 or so. Not sure. Even under stock conditions, after a long period of time, the chassis can weaken due to metal fatigue, Im sure you know that, you're a smart guy.
These 4 turbos, don't go to the extremes under normal tuning. They offer a lot of fun for not a lot of money. Each one offers their own benefit. The pumaspeed X-37 may offer a small advantage over the cyborg if nothing more than time in use. They have been working on this car for a long time. I could be wrong there. Not trying to start anything. ATP offers huge advantages because of experience, but the boost maps, seem to move the 2554 and 2560 out of what I called useable driving range. I called it. That is my assumption. Don't get your panties in a wad. If you live on the street, with traffic, your usable power band is between 750 rpm and 4 K is probably the upper limit. Short quick shifts. The other thing these turbos do is move off the instant torque just enough by moving the RPM band, so that it reduces stress on the transmission, and clutch, and offers a little better traction so the car can get moving. Once your moving, the stress on the tranny and clutch diminishes exponentially.
Rodmoe, and Rick, Joe at 2J, Russ at DHM, Adam at Tune +, Bryan at Cyborg, Pierce Motorsports, and now the guy who posted the 4 turbo setup, OMG that was awesome, anyway, very experienced guys and I would be so lucky to know and have done what they have done. Would trust what they had to say any day of the week. Hell if Rick said, I just installed a springy thing, and it made 20hp based on my butt feel. I would want to know where I could buy it. No dyno needed. He butt feel is probably more accurate than the virtual dyno. No I am not a Rick worshiper. I just respect the guy and understand him. Were both of the anal type when it comes to getting stuff done in our cars. I will, just like him and have just like him go to some stupid extremes to make something work in a car. So I get him. Completely. Joe, races his car, on a regular basis. While I did not completely agree with how he handled my brake situation, I have purchased 3 sets of pads from him since. I could have gotten them from Summit or Jegs or Wilwood, but I trust what he has to say. Russ is on the bleeding edge of what can be done power wise on this car in the states. He knows what hes doing. Rodmoe, is along for that ride. God Bless him, lots of experience in his car, with lots of power. He knows. Pierce is a suspension guy. He knows. There are so many others here, but the point you made was I don't pay any attention to the experts, and that is not so. I don't want to be an expert. I am just sharing experiences. It is up to those who read to come to their own conclusions. Anything I post on any matter other than audio, is an opinion based on experience. My experience. Everyone has to come to their own conclusions but in joining this forum, I am doing everyone other than you and hijinx, and a couple others a disservice if I don't share my experiences not experience(I want to clarify) other than with audio. I can be harsh sometimes, but look at who I'm dealing with.
Now, for the other thing you mentioned, why only 4 turbos. Because I did my research on this and the other ST forums amongst other car forums on the turbos in question. Before I say this, I want to follow up on the cyborg. I think Bryan makes a fantastic product. I think Bryan is very knowledgeable and have zero problem trusting anything he says. Even if Bryan was not rebuilding these turbos himself, which I believe he is, he knows enough about it to delegate to a company to get it done for him and that is good enough for me. I have manufactured clutches for the high performance world, so I get it. I am different in that I don't like hearing my car. When you are into audio, any noise other than the sound of music is annoying and in the way. So keeping the car as quiet as possible is job 1. Goal was to make as much power as possible as quietly as possible without having to mess with the fuel system or engine. I have been there, done that, and it gets really freaking expensive, and reliability goes down the drain and then it gets so sensitive your constantly having to mess with it. Could not afford to do that with my job. I needed reliable transportation. Adam offered up the Cyborg, and X-37. It was ultimately my choice, but the X-37 offered a solution with less modification and quicker turn around time. Between the Cyborg, and X-37 we are probably splitting hairs in the grand scheme, and should the X-37 with adam's tune make more HP or less HP than the Cyborg, it changes nothing in regards to my respect of Bryan and his product and what he has achieved and what the future holds for him and his product. He is a one man show, and he cannot mass produce what he's doing at the moment, but as his business grows which I am sure it will, he will get there. Anytime anyone ask me what turbo would I recommend, I say, based on what I have read, the cyborg deserves a very serious look. I say it all the time. Price vs performance. It is an incredible deal. If you can afford to wait and send him your turbo first, it is a stupid good deal based on what you get.
The four turbos chosen, we not necessarily the only options, but based on my extensive experience putting High Horsepower engines in dinky small cars, There is only so much metal, and the chassis is only going to take so much. A buddy of mine out of Michigan dropped a LSX 900hp motor in a solstice. he talked about it going sideways up the highway. You can do it all day, doesn't mean its safe, and doesn't mean it is reliable. He knew it when he did it. So, I really believe, now note, that word implies opinion and I can only offer an opinion based on my experience. You produce a fiesta st making 350WHP and 350 FT TORQUE from what a dyno would say, and they have over 50,000 miles on it, that would become the proof that it works and works reliably for daily driving. TORQUE puts an enormous amount of stress on a chassis. Nope, I have no data to back that up other than the National Safety and Transportation Board, or Indy, or IRL, or Nascar. You add support braces to do what???...Class???? Add support, that's right, very good. Its called reinforcement. So either it adds benefit or we have another cobb in your opinion, selling unneeded product.
So as I said to tWolf, those who would want to upgrade their vehicle but not go to the outer extremes as say, Rick, or Rodmoe, or I even think Hijinx has like a 2867 which is high up on the food chain, He drives It every day, but how far, how long, how hard, (no need for him to chime in), If he is racing, more stress on the body, after 30,000 miles of that kind of stress, lets put his car on a frame alignment machine, and see If it is still in spec. If it is, then he has proven his point that the body can handle it. Though not sure hes making all that much power anyway. I though I read something about he said 240 or so. Not sure. Even under stock conditions, after a long period of time, the chassis can weaken due to metal fatigue, Im sure you know that, you're a smart guy.
These 4 turbos, don't go to the extremes under normal tuning. They offer a lot of fun for not a lot of money. Each one offers their own benefit. The pumaspeed X-37 may offer a small advantage over the cyborg if nothing more than time in use. They have been working on this car for a long time. I could be wrong there. Not trying to start anything. ATP offers huge advantages because of experience, but the boost maps, seem to move the 2554 and 2560 out of what I called useable driving range. I called it. That is my assumption. Don't get your panties in a wad. If you live on the street, with traffic, your usable power band is between 750 rpm and 4 K is probably the upper limit. Short quick shifts. The other thing these turbos do is move off the instant torque just enough by moving the RPM band, so that it reduces stress on the transmission, and clutch, and offers a little better traction so the car can get moving. Once your moving, the stress on the tranny and clutch diminishes exponentially.
Rodmoe, and Rick, Joe at 2J, Russ at DHM, Adam at Tune +, Bryan at Cyborg, Pierce Motorsports, and now the guy who posted the 4 turbo setup, OMG that was awesome, anyway, very experienced guys and I would be so lucky to know and have done what they have done. Would trust what they had to say any day of the week. Hell if Rick said, I just installed a springy thing, and it made 20hp based on my butt feel. I would want to know where I could buy it. No dyno needed. He butt feel is probably more accurate than the virtual dyno. No I am not a Rick worshiper. I just respect the guy and understand him. Were both of the anal type when it comes to getting stuff done in our cars. I will, just like him and have just like him go to some stupid extremes to make something work in a car. So I get him. Completely. Joe, races his car, on a regular basis. While I did not completely agree with how he handled my brake situation, I have purchased 3 sets of pads from him since. I could have gotten them from Summit or Jegs or Wilwood, but I trust what he has to say. Russ is on the bleeding edge of what can be done power wise on this car in the states. He knows what hes doing. Rodmoe, is along for that ride. God Bless him, lots of experience in his car, with lots of power. He knows. Pierce is a suspension guy. He knows. There are so many others here, but the point you made was I don't pay any attention to the experts, and that is not so. I don't want to be an expert. I am just sharing experiences. It is up to those who read to come to their own conclusions. Anything I post on any matter other than audio, is an opinion based on experience. My experience. Everyone has to come to their own conclusions but in joining this forum, I am doing everyone other than you and hijinx, and a couple others a disservice if I don't share my experiences not experience(I want to clarify) other than with audio. I can be harsh sometimes, but look at who I'm dealing with.
Well actually you said that if someone spends $2-6k on a turbo and then doesn't go to the dyno to put a number to it they're an idiot.
I've had my Fiesta on the dyno for probably 30+ pulls. I've done a shit ton of V-dynos as well and generally they're very close. Until I got these crappy tires and can't get reliable readings anymore. I'll be weighing the car tomorrow as well which should make the v-dynos even more accurate in the future.
To be honest I see why a lot of people don't want to share their experience with this community, some pretty stupid shit has gone down in the past and /some people/ ruin it.
I've had my Fiesta on the dyno for probably 30+ pulls. I've done a shit ton of V-dynos as well and generally they're very close. Until I got these crappy tires and can't get reliable readings anymore. I'll be weighing the car tomorrow as well which should make the v-dynos even more accurate in the future.
To be honest I see why a lot of people don't want to share their experience with this community, some pretty stupid shit has gone down in the past and /some people/ ruin it.
Thanks TempeST and Antarctica24.
In all honestly the car has more than enough power for most anything I want to do with it we could just fine tune it a bit more and I would be happy except my goal is to hang with a C7, not Z06, on the straights and I am very close to the power to weight ratio to do that but a little more will get me into Porsche Turbo range and if I am not spinning the tires that means I can hang with them. I might have less grip and higher CG but a lot less weight at 2575lbs, might be less with all the new mods I am just completing and will have some aero work soon as well. The WMI will help provide all the power I need, my driving skill will need to step up and I have not driven a FWD with this power to weight ratio on track before.
I will be the first to admit I do not know it all, nobody does, I learn daily because I have always known there will always be somebody out there that knows more so my results which have been quite good over the years are based on research and implementing the best I can figure out, redoing things as needed, tweaking, tuning, etc. Of course I know many things from experience and have come up with a few ideas of my own but even those are never set in stone, there is always a way to do things better.
Not a big dyno fan, too many variables, and I have had two engines blown, one on the dyno during the tune, another the next day after an $1,100 tune, both by reputable tuners and neither one covered their mistakes. Luckily they were cheap engines to find barely used like the FiST engine.
The results on track and fun to drive factor are what I care about, if I was building a car to race in a restrictive class I might worry more abut a dyno so when I start running TT events I might have to go on one but if I hit a bit too much power and have to run a different class, where not competitive, not even a big deal because I compare my car to all others, not my class. I have built several cars that were the absolute wrong car yet took 2nds and 3rds with them which is far more rewarding than building the best chassis to the highest level required then winning all the time which I did in the 70's but not since then. When champion ship drivers, well known instructors, etc come to check out my cars and are amazed at how fast I have made them that is far more appreciated than another 1st place finish in the best car, not into trophies, which I always decline or give away, etc.
We each have our priorities, beliefs, goals, it is fun to compare numbers, fun for some to make the biggest power possible even if it makes the care difficult to drive well, just spin the tires, etc...power is cheap now, tires super sticky, physics has not changed, there is too much to be had, less is more in many of these cases. I have beaten a huge list of higher powered and better chassis cars over many years, that is what pleases me the most and sharing anything I can to help others along the way
Good day, time to go work on the car to finish up a few things,
Rick
In all honestly the car has more than enough power for most anything I want to do with it we could just fine tune it a bit more and I would be happy except my goal is to hang with a C7, not Z06, on the straights and I am very close to the power to weight ratio to do that but a little more will get me into Porsche Turbo range and if I am not spinning the tires that means I can hang with them. I might have less grip and higher CG but a lot less weight at 2575lbs, might be less with all the new mods I am just completing and will have some aero work soon as well. The WMI will help provide all the power I need, my driving skill will need to step up and I have not driven a FWD with this power to weight ratio on track before.
I will be the first to admit I do not know it all, nobody does, I learn daily because I have always known there will always be somebody out there that knows more so my results which have been quite good over the years are based on research and implementing the best I can figure out, redoing things as needed, tweaking, tuning, etc. Of course I know many things from experience and have come up with a few ideas of my own but even those are never set in stone, there is always a way to do things better.
Not a big dyno fan, too many variables, and I have had two engines blown, one on the dyno during the tune, another the next day after an $1,100 tune, both by reputable tuners and neither one covered their mistakes. Luckily they were cheap engines to find barely used like the FiST engine.
The results on track and fun to drive factor are what I care about, if I was building a car to race in a restrictive class I might worry more abut a dyno so when I start running TT events I might have to go on one but if I hit a bit too much power and have to run a different class, where not competitive, not even a big deal because I compare my car to all others, not my class. I have built several cars that were the absolute wrong car yet took 2nds and 3rds with them which is far more rewarding than building the best chassis to the highest level required then winning all the time which I did in the 70's but not since then. When champion ship drivers, well known instructors, etc come to check out my cars and are amazed at how fast I have made them that is far more appreciated than another 1st place finish in the best car, not into trophies, which I always decline or give away, etc.
We each have our priorities, beliefs, goals, it is fun to compare numbers, fun for some to make the biggest power possible even if it makes the care difficult to drive well, just spin the tires, etc...power is cheap now, tires super sticky, physics has not changed, there is too much to be had, less is more in many of these cases. I have beaten a huge list of higher powered and better chassis cars over many years, that is what pleases me the most and sharing anything I can to help others along the way
Good day, time to go work on the car to finish up a few things,
Rick
^ All of this, especially the bold.
Not everyone here wants to be the dyno queen and a large portion of the members just don't understand the data that they're looking at. The turbo that makes 245 hp on a car with a baseline of 215 hp is not nearly as good as the turbo that makes 240 hp on a car that baselined 190 hp. Final numbers are a moot point without the delta and there are far more variables than the turbo alone can account for.
If you want to know which turbo works for you then look at a compressor map and do your math, don't go around calling everyone idiots because they aren't providing you data that some free internet searching can give you.
Not everyone here wants to be the dyno queen and a large portion of the members just don't understand the data that they're looking at. The turbo that makes 245 hp on a car with a baseline of 215 hp is not nearly as good as the turbo that makes 240 hp on a car that baselined 190 hp. Final numbers are a moot point without the delta and there are far more variables than the turbo alone can account for.
If you want to know which turbo works for you then look at a compressor map and do your math, don't go around calling everyone idiots because they aren't providing you data that some free internet searching can give you.
lmfao - sorry, but that is ironically hilarious; guess we won't be getting any hard data from that installation!
I appreciate that several members have suggested "do a search", but I'm surprised no one has offered:
search "big turbo results" - http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/6937-Big-Turbo-Results-Thread
or, for a different kind of data, "1/4 mile time" yields - http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/4647-Offical-FiST-1-4-Mile-Drag-Times-List!-Post-Here
I'm not really surprised that Adam convinced you that the unit he sells is the way to go; Sourskittle would have convinced you the Cyborg is, DHM the Quickspool.
(nothing against any of these options, I tend to lean toward one of the hybrids, down the road and I lean towards Adam as a tuner.)
We have to appreciate what different members experience has to offer. dyn085 is one of the GrandMembers here; his opinions are based on experience with this specific platform and always based on facts (hard to argue with that). Raam has a hell of a lot of experience on a wide variety of platforms including this one, his being one of the most heavily modded ST's out there, but he even has made mistakes (he's on his third turbo system - live and learn). He's obviously a go-to audio expert, as is anarctica.
We all have to live and learn. I appreciate that antarctica was an expert at MAF-tuned platforms at a point in time, but technology moves on, and apparently the ST's Bosch system is state-of-the-art, far removed from systems of even a few years ago.
We all need to inquire, learn, stand corrected and move on.
I appreciate that several members have suggested "do a search", but I'm surprised no one has offered:
search "big turbo results" - http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/6937-Big-Turbo-Results-Thread
or, for a different kind of data, "1/4 mile time" yields - http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/4647-Offical-FiST-1-4-Mile-Drag-Times-List!-Post-Here
I'm not really surprised that Adam convinced you that the unit he sells is the way to go; Sourskittle would have convinced you the Cyborg is, DHM the Quickspool.
(nothing against any of these options, I tend to lean toward one of the hybrids, down the road and I lean towards Adam as a tuner.)
We have to appreciate what different members experience has to offer. dyn085 is one of the GrandMembers here; his opinions are based on experience with this specific platform and always based on facts (hard to argue with that). Raam has a hell of a lot of experience on a wide variety of platforms including this one, his being one of the most heavily modded ST's out there, but he even has made mistakes (he's on his third turbo system - live and learn). He's obviously a go-to audio expert, as is anarctica.
We all have to live and learn. I appreciate that antarctica was an expert at MAF-tuned platforms at a point in time, but technology moves on, and apparently the ST's Bosch system is state-of-the-art, far removed from systems of even a few years ago.
We all need to inquire, learn, stand corrected and move on.
FWIW, Adam recommended the X-37 to me over the Cyborg and GT2554 BEFORE he ever started to sell them. I didn't even buy mine from him. This was a small contributing factor amongst many other things in making my decision, but I think he started carrying them because of the results to be had - I doubt the profit margins are great.
Adam really isnt making a monopoly off the x-37 thats for sure as I was the first to purchase the x-37 from pumaspeed and shipped to DE. So i know the cost comparison between adam and pumaspeed. I am also the first to get the x-37 tuned in the states by adam (by anyone at that matter) and for an option that is reliable, super cost effective, and 1000% stock fitting it was the best call on hardware imo. All data sold on adams site came from my datalogs and track times. If anyone wants more questions on it ill be happy to answer any questions through PM.
Sent from my SM-G530P using Tapatalk
Sent from my SM-G530P using Tapatalk
I've been thinking of which turbo upgrade to go with for sometime now. The X-37 seems to be the flavor of the month right now. Comparing the cyborg to the X-37, the cyborg looks to have the advantage when comparing hardware. There is plenty of recent documentation on the X-37 from various forum members who have shared there results. However, the X-37 seems to make more power from what I've seen posted. Sour Skittles has tuned the Cyborg to the ragged edge and made food power, but I want to know what I can expect running 93 as well as E-30. You don't see too much documentation from cyborg owners. I like that the cyborg is made by Sour Skittle's. He's a local guy and he puts out a quality product. He's been a great contributor to our forum and he is local to me. I have lifetime tunes with Adam at Tune+ So it would be easy for me to go the X-37 route. What I want to know is which turbo would make the most power when tuned appropriately. Adam tunes the x-37 and he does a great job because he is very familiar with it and it would behoove him and his business to do a good job tuning them. As of right now, I don't know of anyone who really tunes the cyborg and is familiar with it. Adam has toned a few, but it is probably counter productive to tune the cyborg as it is the direct competitor to the X-37. I'd like to know which one would be best for me. I'm full stage III, just look at my Sig. I'd like to make 280 WHP on E30 or E40 & 260 WHP on 93. If I went to cyborg route, I'm not sure who would tune it. Don't know if Russ @ DHM still tunes other turbos or if he just tunes the ones people purchase from him. Basically I'd like to see a full comparison of the cyborg and the X-37 so that I can make a better decision. Adam is my tuner so the X-37 would be easy in that regard. Sour Skittle's makes the cyborg and he's local to me as well as I like the fact that he does these himself and he's not some corporate entity. So there's some stuff to think about
V just to give you a heads up, I would do the install for/with you either way. I hold no ill will towards anyone with a X37. I said for over 2 years that once a pro-tuner had a VESTED INTEREST in making good power with a hybrid, THEN we would see better results. And we have
Notice how I still don't sell tunes? Lol.
Notice how I still don't sell tunes? Lol.
What are the X37 guys making on 93 & e30 NO METH? You aren't touching 300whp without meth (or with it for that matter) on these small turbos. I think there's been some truth stretching.. Or maybe I'm missing something?
I made 245whp on V dyno running e30 with my external wastegate cyborg. I have seen very few numbers from the x37, maybe because they aren't allowed to post v dyno's???
Edit: saw ms67 v dyno of e30. Made 270/300. So another 25whp on v dyno compared to cyborg. Would love to see more. Especially on 93. I saw 230-235whp on v dyno running 93. Is the x37 THAT great vs a cyborg? Maybe great marketing...
If you want a lot of power your best bet is deadhook or figure out your own turbo kit
I made 245whp on V dyno running e30 with my external wastegate cyborg. I have seen very few numbers from the x37, maybe because they aren't allowed to post v dyno's???
Edit: saw ms67 v dyno of e30. Made 270/300. So another 25whp on v dyno compared to cyborg. Would love to see more. Especially on 93. I saw 230-235whp on v dyno running 93. Is the x37 THAT great vs a cyborg? Maybe great marketing...
If you want a lot of power your best bet is deadhook or figure out your own turbo kit
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