x37-47 / 2554-60 / C39 / ST280 - Small Turbo Comparison Thread

[antarctica24]

Summarized Comparisons of Reported Results (as of 1/27/2017):

Original Cyborg: 235 to 260whp (depending on tune / fuel / mods)

Pumaspeed X37: 250 to 290whp (depending on tune / fuel / mods)

Cyborg C39: 260 to 300whp (depending on tune / fuel / mods)

Pumaspeed X47: 270 to 315whp (depending on tune / fuel / mods)

[HR][/HR]
For those members that have turbo upgrades already installed here is a thread to let members know which upgrade you selected...You can also post supporting data and results here as well for others to review to help determine which upgrade best suits one's own personal goals...

Which Turbo Upgrade do you "currently" have installed?

And here are some specific turbo upgrade discussion threads on our forum listed below:

Official Pumaspeed X-37 Hybrid Turbo Thread

Cyborg Upgraded Stock Turbocharger System

DHM "Quick Spool" GT290r Turbo Kit Release!!!

PERON P3xx Twin-Scroll Turbo Thread

Turbo Upgrade - GT2554R or GT2560R? Expectations?

PumaSpeed's New X-47 Hybrid Turbo Thread

[HR][/HR]
Original Post (below):

Where is the real comparisons? I am certain this has been beaten to death on this forum. But what I cannot seem to figure out is why no one is bragging with real data about their results?

When you are doing a virtual dyno there is no standard for replicating the test. The gear your in, the temp, the location, the altitude, fuel, the person conducting the test, etc. Running your car using the virual dyno is useless if the tests are not consistent between those who are testing to use for any meaningful comparison.

Lest not forget here in the US we measure torque and HP as torque in FT LBs, and HP normally in WHP as in at the wheel. Across the water, they measure in BHP aka at the flywheel, and Torque in Newton Meters. These are not the same. Normally there is a 15% variance between BHP and WHP in our car. Torque is about the same variance. Yes I know, HP is derived from TQ.

And when reporting results, for them to be meaningful, both numbers need to be on the graph to show the relationship to each other in regards to RPM, and it would be really nice to see boost against RPM for your setup with your parts. Saying that your vehicle makes 240whp, or saying your vehicle makes 260WHP and 300FT TQ, without the graph means nothing, because if you are making all of your power at 5K, what is going on from 1Kto 4900K? Remember Boost is a measure of restriction. The higher the boost number don't always mean more power. If you have an efficient system, you actually can have less boost with more power.

In addition, how about sharing everything you have done to the car in addition to the turbo. We almost need a form to fill out on this forum to keep it consistent.

Obviously a tune is not a tune, and they are not the same between tuners. Where National Speed may go about it one way, DHM would do it differently and so would adam on the exact same turbo based on experience, and again it really matters where you are, altitude, temp, on the day you did it and using a real dyno and the brand of dyno you used. That's why Adam says buying the lifetime tune is important especially if you move.

With any curve it is about "Power under the curve" not peak. For anyone who does not know what that means, when you are looking at a dyno graph, the higher your lines are over a larger area of RPM, the better. If your curve starts off on a 45 degree and climbs to peak at 5500, you are outside of the normal driving RPM range. When you are running around on the street, you cannot be running to 7 grand every shift, well I guess you could, but not as much fun IMO. You want your torque to come on quick and taper off as HP climbs, but if takes 5000 worth of RPM to get there your max power is only good for 2000 worth of RPM. AKA NOT A LOT.

If you have real dyno numbers, not virtual dyno numbers, share them here, don't be shy and don't be greedy. This is not about I have more power than you, this is about being scientific about what we are doing. There are lots of people on this forum that would be interested, not to mention everything we post is available on the entire internet, so you would sharing your information to the world.

 

[JasonHaven]

Considering the variables, it'd be pretty unlikely for us to get direct comparisons between the turbos. Best we can do is generalize, no?

You start with lowest peak and probably widest power band with the X-37/Cyborg, and then narrow the band/raise the peak, as you go up the turbo spectrum...

 

[johnnyaf87]

Cobb stage 3 / x-37 / meth / adamtuned
Dynojet 276whp pump gas + meth
13.3 @ 109 street tires at cecil dragway

Sent from my SM-G530P using Tapatalk

 

[dyn085]

Considering the variables, it'd be pretty unlikely for us to get direct comparisons between the turbos. Best we can do is generalize, no?

You start with lowest peak and probably widest power band with the X-37/Cyborg, and then narrow the band/raise the peak, as you go up the turbo spectrum...

^This x100. The only way to get 100% 'direct' comparisons would be to install all of these turbos on the exact same engine and run them on the exact same dyno. It's unrealistic to expect and the people that would have the money to complete such a test aren't driving Fiestas. The best we have or will have are the people that have different turbos installed being tested however they see fit with wherever they're at on whatever day/time they choose to test them.

 

[Brickell FIST]

Why are facts so scary? Gives people a basis to make a informed decision. I'm interested in a bigger turbo set up and am curious to see what might be the best.

The best for me would be mean better pulls for highway use. Maybe someone can just tell me what turbo is suited for this. Or that this platform can't do it and stick with...

 

[antarctica24]

Considering the variables, it'd be pretty unlikely for us to get direct comparisons between the turbos. Best we can do is generalize, no?

You start with lowest peak and probably widest power band with the X-37/Cyborg, and then narrow the band/raise the peak, as you go up the turbo spectrum...

Its certainly not happening with a virtual dyno.

 

[Jesse]

............. All great options!

 

[TempeST]

For me, if youre only looking for "numbers" Simply put: You want good spool and limited power less than or equal to 300whp, Cyborg and X-37 are your best options. If you don't mind slight delay in spool and want up to 350whp look into DHM quick spool kit. With these options it pretty much out does the other options but then again different strokes for different folks. if you want an NA like power band ATP 2554 seems to be the way to go up to around 300whp. Those are my suggestions from my research. I'm going a totally different route though but that's because of what I plan to use the car for.

But as 2Cool and Dyno85 have mentioned there are tons of links and vdynos and dyno sheets and results all over the forum. the car is still new so there are a lot of new things be figured out. Easiest place to start? buy an AP3, get a protuner, and ask them to help you with your goal. Adam at Tune+ and Russ at DHM are both very reputable and will help you out with anything you need almost all the time. and can help you figure out what it is you need.

People that buy these cars buy them because they are fun. Not to make enormous power(on rare occasions) so there will very rarely be any kind of direct comparisons of turbos.

 

[Brickell FIST]

What is the biggest turbo you can fit without touching the stock fuel system? 300 whp is the limit?

How does the x-37 and the ATP 2554 differ? If they both make the same hp? Thanks Temp.

 

[TempeST]

stock fuel system seems to run out around 320whp-ish give or take some lots of depending factors. GT2560R is probably the biggest you can go with stock fuel and actually utilize it. you can go bigger on the turbo BUT you will run out of fuel before using the turbo to its full advantage.

As for X-37 vs ATP2554

X-37
cheaper
SIMPLE bolt-on
Faster spool(stock like-because it is a stock framed turbo same as cyborg)
less hp on pump gas only but not by much
with methanol and/or E30 is capable of making 300whp or very close

ATP 2554r kit
more expensive
more hp potential on pump gas only
Bolt-on but requires a few things to be changed(lines DV/BOV)
spool is slower but acts like an Naturally aspirated power band
with meth and/or E30 is capable of 300whp maybe more. not enough evidence yet.

with the data we have now I'd always pick the X-37 over the 2554 unless you are looking for an NA powerband. or more power on strictly pump gas. The X-37 spools like stock but holds boost to redline, makes power, and is cheaper. Adam at tune+ likes it so much he stocks them to sell them to us. Its about $600 cheaper than the 2554r and you literally don't need to change anything but the turbo itself. but to each their own. some want more power than the X-37 can produce(like me) I want more than 260 pump gas. I'm looking for 300 pump gas and 350+ with meth. it really depends on your goal(s)

This is STRICTLY MY OPINION. I have researched it quite a bit and that is what I have gathered, and others may have gathered much more and have different views but this is MY opinion. hope it helps.

 

[DP03]

stock fuel system seems to run out around 320whp-ish give or take some lots of depending factors. GT2560R is probably the biggest you can go with stock fuel and actually utilize it. you can go bigger on the turbo BUT you will run out of fuel before using the turbo to its full advantage.

As for X-37 vs ATP2554

X-37
cheaper
SIMPLE bolt-on
Faster spool(stock like-because it is a stock framed turbo same as cyborg)
less hp on pump gas only but not by much
with methanol and/or E30 is capable of making 300whp or very close

ATP 2554r kit
more expensive
more hp potential on pump gas only
Bolt-on but requires a few things to be changed(lines DV/BOV)
spool is slower but acts like an Naturally aspirated power band
with meth and/or E30 is capable of 300whp maybe more. not enough evidence yet.

with the data we have now I'd always pick the X-37 over the 2554 unless you are looking for an NA powerband. or more power on strictly pump gas. The X-37 spools like stock but holds boost to redline, makes power, and is cheaper. Adam at tune+ likes it so much he stocks them to sell them to us. Its about $600 cheaper than the 2554r and you literally don't need to change anything but the turbo itself. but to each their own. some want more power than the X-37 can produce(like me) I want more than 260 pump gas. I'm looking for 300 pump gas and 350+ with meth. it really depends on your goal(s)

This is STRICTLY MY OPINION. I have researched it quite a bit and that is what I have gathered, and others may have gathered much more and have different views but this is MY opinion. hope it helps.

Good recap. Thanks. That's probably where I'm heading next, the X37 from Adam.

 

[Rhinopolis]

There's a heartbreaker nearby and I am about to spend some $$$ on a turbo upgrade with catted aftermarket DP. Presently I am running bolt on I/E/FMIC/Upgraded WGA and stock DP on an E30 pro tune.

All of my virtual dyno comparisons since new have been on the same road with as correct of data as I can plug in to the VD, and I am happy to volunteer to dyno my car on the heartbreaker as it is now and then again after my turbo upgrade and a perfected E30 tune on that system.

There are so many dyno threads around though, and I'm not sure that adding to that mix in a new thread will help to offer any type of control.

When I 1st started datalogging and creating a VD profile, I was in the 190 whp and 230-240 wtrq range. Many tune revisions and a few added bolt on's later plus an E30 tune, and I now hover around 220 whp and 280 lbs wtrq. My graphs are on the forum in other threads.

It will be neat to see what a heartbreaker shows me making at present, and then again after a catted DP and turbo upgrade.

 

[antarctica24]

I get what your trying to find information on, I just bought my FiST couple days ago and am trying to figure out which turbo to go with as well, something that spools quickly (around 3k) and something that can make up to 300 whp. For me Auto X and Full Track days are my plans for it. It seems like there isn't that many people out there who have actually upgraded turbos that seem to be posting about performance on track, I have been reading threads upon threads about what people want to do, but not a lot that I've seen so far is about actually doing it and performance aspects of different turbo options and how well its actually performing in those situations.

When I bought my FR-S back in 2012 we had lots of similar threads like this but the car was just too new and nobody had really made anything for it. Honestly I think if you had approached the thread a little differently (language wise) you wouldn't be getting as many of the responses that you have. Hopefully I can continue reading through the forum and find some thread that is similar to what your asking because I want the same information and I don't think its going to get posted here (unfortunately). Hope I'm wrong though.

I'm ok with those responses its the same people over and over and over and over again. its like their playing doom, and sitting in a corner and stalking, lurking around waiting for someone to post something so they can jump in and run their trap. You've got mr negative, who told me the other day he was blocking my post, so I should have to hear from him anymore, and dyn085(data logger boy), who has all the answers for everyone but none that anyone want to hear, because he has all the answers. If you read my post, it is written the way it is written just for them. You would think they would get the hint and stop doing it. The forum is not for people like them. It is for people who want to share information and enjoy the car. People like dyn085, sit around data log, and then all the sudden they are experts on everything and for some reason the fact that they are screwing around with their own car, makes them an expert.

So moving on. I just decided to buy the X-37 and purchased it today from Tune +. Adam convinced me that it was the way to go, and HE OF ALL PEOPLE WOULD KNOW. The guy has been tuning stuff for years and how many has he tuned? He probably doesn't even know. Regardless, As long as the negative Nancy's continue to have their panties in a wad over whatever their in a wad over, I will continue to be like am being. Nobody is interested in their BS, and they make it bad for everyone else on this forum.

 

[antarctica24]

stock fuel system seems to run out around 320whp-ish give or take some lots of depending factors. GT2560R is probably the biggest you can go with stock fuel and actually utilize it. you can go bigger on the turbo BUT you will run out of fuel before using the turbo to its full advantage.

As for X-37 vs ATP2554

X-37
cheaper
SIMPLE bolt-on
Faster spool(stock like-because it is a stock framed turbo same as cyborg)
less hp on pump gas only but not by much
with methanol and/or E30 is capable of making 300whp or very close

ATP 2554r kit
more expensive
more hp potential on pump gas only
Bolt-on but requires a few things to be changed(lines DV/BOV)
spool is slower but acts like an Naturally aspirated power band
with meth and/or E30 is capable of 300whp maybe more. not enough evidence yet.

with the data we have now I'd always pick the X-37 over the 2554 unless you are looking for an NA powerband. or more power on strictly pump gas. The X-37 spools like stock but holds boost to redline, makes power, and is cheaper. Adam at tune+ likes it so much he stocks them to sell them to us. Its about $600 cheaper than the 2554r and you literally don't need to change anything but the turbo itself. but to each their own. some want more power than the X-37 can produce(like me) I want more than 260 pump gas. I'm looking for 300 pump gas and 350+ with meth. it really depends on your goal(s)

This is STRICTLY MY OPINION. I have researched it quite a bit and that is what I have gathered, and others may have gathered much more and have different views but this is MY opinion. hope it helps.

Bought the X-37 from Adam today., great information thank you so very very much.

 

[antarctica24]

For me, if youre only looking for "numbers" Simply put: You want good spool and limited power less than or equal to 300whp, Cyborg and X-37 are your best options. If you don't mind slight delay in spool and want up to 350whp look into DHM quick spool kit. With these options it pretty much out does the other options but then again different strokes for different folks. if you want an NA like power band ATP 2554 seems to be the way to go up to around 300whp. Those are my suggestions from my research. I'm going a totally different route though but that's because of what I plan to use the car for.

But as 2Cool and Dyno85 have mentioned there are tons of links and vdynos and dyno sheets and results all over the forum. the car is still new so there are a lot of new things be figured out. Easiest place to start? buy an AP3, get a protuner, and ask them to help you with your goal. Adam at Tune+ and Russ at DHM are both very reputable and will help you out with anything you need almost all the time. and can help you figure out what it is you need.

People that buy these cars buy them because they are fun. Not to make enormous power(on rare occasions) so there will very rarely be any kind of direct comparisons of turbos.

I commented on one of your later post, but how hard was that? You gave excellent advice and were not a troll about it. Im not interested in searching through years of threads to find a dyno sheet, and there are not going to be any on the X37, and the cyborg data, he says in his thread what his turbo is doing but also says, that it is not typical because he carries his to the extreme. I think sourskittle is one of the most knowledgeable people on the forum especially when it comes to understanding the inner workings of turbos. But from a business standpoint, I would think, make a great product(which he does), know something about what your selling (which he does), and advertise what you can replicate (which he somewhat does). He is a great guy, and again makes a great product. But in reality, it is his business, and he can run it any way he sees fit.

I think the really funny thing about all of this, is all of the money that is being spent to capture 100WHP which probably equates to about 80% of the people on this forum, and the 20% falls into two groups, 10% want to be at 300HP and 300TQ, and the other 10% are what I like to call on the bleeding edge, they are just pushing the power envelope looking for every little tiny bit of power increase they can get for no other reason than to say they got it. I have milked this car for almost 2 lifetimes worth of driving. If the engine fails, I can tell you this, I will not hesitate to step up. I gave my notice yesterday, and I am going back to Information Technology making much more money. So I hope to hit 170,000 before June the 10th. After that it will be back to regular driving.

Thank you so very much for responding with useful information and not being like the other tards. I really appreciate it.

 

[Sourskittle]

X-37 Hybrid, ATP 2554, 2560, Cyborg Questions

I'm just going to say that if you want data... The cyborg thread has enough info, data, stories, and step by step in chronological order to keep you busy for an entire night if you take the time to read through it page by page.

Also going to say every dyno ever reads different ( ask cobb wink ), and even more so, unless you build a custom boost map WHILE ON THAT DYNO, your tune will change ON THE DYNO. Different load, different boost, different boost, different power/timing. And the variables just go on and on and on and on. I was a super big V-dyno hater. I had used products like it in the past and they sucked. The VD when used correctly is great. No load variations, and gives instant validation as to what the data was on that power pull via datazap.

Some tuners are afraid to share. Can't help that... Not everyone wants to post datazap numbers.

 

[RAAMaudio]

My VD run this morning said 309 WHP, 91 Arco gas, Quick spool with billet comp wheel, cat, WG back into DP, recirc BOV because I do not want to hear it though I do a bit, out of fuel now. Spool is not super quick but getting close to just what I wanted it to be.

Urethane filled passenger side and trans side engine mounts fixed the majority of the huge torque steer I had with the slow but hard hitting EFR.

Finishing up the new battery box cut into the tire well, WMI tank the same, then will get the WMI tune going.

 

[antarctica24]

I'm just going to say that if you want data... The cyborg thread has enough info, data, stories, and step by step in chronological order to keep you busy for an entire night if you take the time to read through it page by page.

Also going to say every dyno ever reads different ( ask cobb wink ), and even more so, unless you build a custom boost map WHILE ON THAT DYNO, your tune will change ON THE DYNO. Different load, different boost, different boost, different power/timing. And the variables just go on and on and on and on. I was a super big V-dyno hater. I had used products like it in the past and they sucked. The VD when used correctly is great. No load variations, and gives instant validation as to what the data was on that power pull via datazap.

Some tuners are afraid to share. Can't help that... Not everyone wants to post datazap numbers.

Again, as always, very useful information. Thank you. I have read through your postings, completely. It was not directed specifically at you, you are the manufacturer. I was really looking for customers to share their real experience with real data. You have to remember who your talking to. I had just recently finished 4 statistics classes, and some other research stuff using the scientific method approach, so it is causing me to be a>>>. I am certain the VD is useful, if used properly. The problem is their is no control test. So what one person may do, and what another person may do, is not guaranteed to be the same, hence, not accurate data. I believe what you said about the dyno. But it is more consistent than the VD, you probably already knew that as well. As an example, knowing the numbers the accessport is revealing is not accurate when reporting torque because it is only reporting what the engine is saying, I have done several pulls both 3rd and 4th gear full 2K to 7K and have had results all over the place from 224-289. hell my boost is reading on the access port 24.59. I have purchased the lifetime tune from our friend adam, so hopefully he will get that all squared away for me.

Thanks again so very much for your reply.

 

[dyn085]

I'm ok with those responses its the same people over and over and over and over again. its like their playing doom, and sitting in a corner and stalking, lurking around waiting for someone to post something so they can jump in and run their trap. You've got mr negative, who told me the other day he was blocking my post, so I should have to hear from him anymore, and dyn085(data logger boy), who has all the answers for everyone but none that anyone want to hear, because he has all the answers. If you read my post, it is written the way it is written just for them. You would think they would get the hint and stop doing it. The forum is not for people like them. It is for people who want to share information and enjoy the car. People like dyn085, sit around data log, and then all the sudden they are experts on everything and for some reason the fact that they are screwing around with their own car, makes them an expert.

So moving on. I just decided to buy the X-37 and purchased it today from Tune +. Adam convinced me that it was the way to go, and HE OF ALL PEOPLE WOULD KNOW. The guy has been tuning stuff for years and how many has he tuned? He probably doesn't even know. Regardless, As long as the negative Nancy's continue to have their panties in a wad over whatever their in a wad over, I will continue to be like am being. Nobody is interested in their BS, and they make it bad for everyone else on this forum.

I'm not the expert by any means, but at least I am well-aware that this is not a MAF-tuned platform and have posted lots of information and done what I can to help members collect, distribute, and evaluate as legitimate of information as possible. We've gone from a community consistently perpetuating rumors of RMM false-knock to a community with the means to collect and share tests in as-scientific of a manner as possible without spending paychecks on it. I haven't done it all but I have definitely done my part and all you've done is tried to assert that you know everything simply because you've driven more miles in stock form than everyone else.

Also, this is funny-

If you are selling your goods to the public and post dyno information about your product, please don't say, here is my dynograph showing the gains created by my product, but these are not realistic because I tune my car differently to get the extreme results.

Adam convinced me that it was the way to go, and HE OF ALL PEOPLE WOULD KNOW.

You wouldn't know why, but some do. More-so when it's realized that you called me 'data-logger boy' (A title that I'm perfectly ok with, btw) and then chose the only tuner in the entire ST community (FiST and FoST) that won't allow his customers to share logs.

I'll go back to my tuning and datalogging and you can go back to demanding everyone spend their money on dyno's. After all, there's no way to screw up a dyno pull and they're all perfectly comparable with each other...lol.

 

[dyn085]

On the flip-side, I do think that more people should do actual dyno work. The FoST community has significantly more 'legitimate' dyno charts to comb through. I don't know why we want to only limit this to four turbros, but the sky isn't the limit here so I understand why we would want to limit our choices.

Btw, where exactly are all of your dyno charts that you've spent money on and shared?