Sway bars or bracing?

[LilPartyBox]

.......Most customers from history have got the coilovers and 80% are happy.
The other 20% will get anti-roll bar to help with the side to side roll, but that is about it.
Once you have control of the damping, it make a huge difference as you can directly control how the load and how much load are put onto the tyres.
That is how you gain maximum traction out of sticky tyres such as semi-slicks, and how you get comfort on a daily driver, all in a single package.

Jerrick

This is what i'm going for but without any track bias (stiff springs). I'm gonna run Koni Oranges with Eibachs fully understanding the lean towards comfort. I'm hoping to eliminate the roll with the sways and bracing and still have decent cornering performance...for a DD anyway.

 

[MeisterR]

This is what i'm going for but without any track bias (stiff springs). I'm gonna run Koni Oranges with Eibachs fully understanding the lean towards comfort. I'm hoping to eliminate the roll with the sways and bracing and still have decent cornering performance...for a DD anyway.

The other 20% I am talking about is adding anti-roll bar on top of the coilovers to further reduce roll, but give up some degree of ride comfort for it.

If you ask me for your use, I will use the standard sway bar and get coilovers.
The reason is because you want to have the stiffer springs to reduce roll, but the ability to dial down the damping force for comfort.

Harder springs don't mean harsher ride, harder damper valving does that.
When you have a good sensible springs rate to help resist roll (especially a good linear rate springs), along with a good damper valving that is compliant, that will give ride comfort.
Adjustment of that damping is what going to get you the best of both world, and get your car to drive how "you" like it.

If you use a soft progressive springs that allows roll, then you try to stop it with anti-roll bar, you end up with less control because your damper isn't working with your springs.
Why have something that roll then try to stop it, when you can have something that aren't meant to roll as much to begin with.

As I have said before, coilovers does not have to be harsh. The ZetaCRD has been reported over and over again to be more comfortable than the OEM Fiesta ST suspension in the UK.

If you price up a set of Koni Orange, Eibach, Anti roll bar, and bracing, it will probably cost more than the coilovers and you have less control over the chassis in the end.
The standard MeisterR springs rate for the Fiesta ST I wouldn't say it is "track bias" anyways, as it is in the realm of "fast road" suspension territory.

Jerrick

 

[LilPartyBox]

The other 20% I am talking about is adding anti-roll bar on top of the coilovers to further reduce roll, but give up some degree of ride comfort for it.

If you ask me for your use, I will use the standard sway bar and get coilovers.
The reason is because you want to have the stiffer springs to reduce roll, but the ability to dial down the damping force for comfort.

Harder springs don't mean harsher ride, harder damper valving does that.
When you have a good sensible springs rate to help resist roll (especially a good linear rate springs), along with a good damper valving that is compliant, that will give ride comfort.
Adjustment of that damping is what going to get you the best of both world, and get your car to drive how "you" like it.

If you use a soft progressive springs that allows roll, then you try to stop it with anti-roll bar, you end up with less control because your damper isn't working with your springs.
Why have something that roll then try to stop it, when you can have something that aren't meant to roll as much to begin with.

As I have said before, coilovers does not have to be harsh. The ZetaCRD has been reported over and over again to be more comfortable than the OEM Fiesta ST suspension in the UK.

If you price up a set of Koni Orange, Eibach, Anti roll bar, and bracing, it will probably cost more than the coilovers and you have less control over the chassis in the end.
The standard MeisterR springs rate for the Fiesta ST I wouldn't say it is "track bias" anyways, as it is in the realm of "fast road" suspension territory.

Jerrick

Can't agree with you more. I run BC Racing coils on my wife's mazda 5. So much more comfortable than the FiST. And like you said, that last 20%...I threw an oem mazdaspeed 3 sway on the rear. Her minivan out handles the Fist to a degree and is more comfortable.

The Koni setup just fell in my lap literally the day before I was gonna order BC racing coils. For $350 the set has seen under 3k miles and includes oem mounts. It was a monetary decision really. More importantly it's a repair decision as my struts are blown. I had no plans to mod this lease for another 3 yrs.

I did it all for less than the BCs tho. I bought the sways and bracing cuz once I held the Konis, I was like fuck it, I have the budget set aside, guess I'm modding lol. I hoped they would compensate for the setup. I rationalized it honestly. I didn't think about the progressive springs. I wonder if I'll even see the stiffer rate of the spring with the sways keeping things in check... Either way I'm sure it'll bring a big cheese grin when I crank her into an off ramp. Worst case, BC in a few years assuming I even keep her.

 

[RAAMaudio]

LPB, you are going to be much better off than any stock spring/damper car so that is cool, get it back roadworthy, etc....

I have been pretty low key, for me at least, about sways, braces, etc....but posting my thoughts, and experiences, a bit more though have not fully explored all of the options on this car so can only speculate or post what I can from prior vehicle mods, which is pretty extensive.

So far I have found no reason to go to sways or braces other than a front 2 point and I would not be hesitant to go lap for lap with any other street driven FiST but I might still end up with some of these things in the future if it indeed makes the car proven to be faster or just better overall to drive

 

[MeisterR]

if you got some suspension for cheap and are used to repair a blown damper, then that is fair enough.
But if you want to advance it, I would say coilovers is the way forward.

There is no reason to build off a bad foundation if that make sense, you got to look at the end goal in sight.
The Koni / Eibach setup wasn't design as a performance suspension package, it is more of a replacement suspension package.
To use that as the base and add sway bar and braces in hope to enhance it's performance, it makes more sense to go with the right setup from the get go.

That is why I always recommend members buy what they WANT, not what they can AFFORD now.
Because spending money on sub par suspension that they can afford now, mean it cost them more money in the long run to get what they want.
If they go straight for what they want, it is the cheapest and most direct way to achieve the performance they are after.

That is just my opinion from working with enthusiast for many years.

Jerrick

 

[LilPartyBox]

Agreed. And I usually, and intended to, go the route you describe. But this was a very unique set of circumstances. I've never, ever had a brand new car blow struts so dam early. And when the wife signs off on a budget, well, use it or lose it lol I'll admit I got a lil greedy and just bought everything. Even a short shifter lol

I'll be doing the install in stages so I can report back how each "phase" changes the car. Koni/springs first. Drive for a couple days then bracing and rmm. Then sways a few days after that.

 

[wrongwheeldrive]

Alright I'm ready to pull the trigger on a pierce package. So do I go street or track? Opinions on strut brace?

 

[myfiSTurface]

My opinion is bracing first, only because the amount of things that need to be taken off for the front sway bar. My plan is down pipe with the sway bars to make life easy. Especially if your doing it in your drive way. Just how my plan is and opinion. Our downpipes aren't "easy" to do and everything I read about bracing is super positive and seems to almost feel better than sway bars. But when you finally get to it and do bracing and bars I'm sure its out of this world.

My past opinion on coil overs are you need to spend money to enjoy the ride. I did $800.00 ones on my first GTI (2005) and I did $1800.00 on my second GTI (2010) and the $800.00 made me get rid of the car because the ride sucked so bad and besides I wanted a new one at the time haha. Good luck, enjoy!

 

[MeisterR]

My opinion is bracing first, only because the amount of things that need to be taken off for the front sway bar. My plan is down pipe with the sway bars to make life easy. Especially if your doing it in your drive way. Just how my plan is and opinion. Our downpipes aren't "easy" to do and everything I read about bracing is super positive and seems to almost feel better than sway bars. But when you finally get to it and do bracing and bars I'm sure its out of this world.

My past opinion on coil overs are you need to spend money to enjoy the ride. I did $800.00 ones on my first GTI (2005) and I did $1800.00 on my second GTI (2010) and the $800.00 made me get rid of the car because the ride sucked so bad and besides I wanted a new one at the time haha. Good luck, enjoy!

If you get a poorly design suspension, that is normally what will happen.
Price don't always decide what quality suspension you will get, but many time it is a good indication.

As I have said, for all purposes is that coilovers will give a better overall effect than bracing.
Bracing do make a difference, but if the main part of the suspension remain the same, then you can expect the result to be similar also.

Jerrick

 

[RAAMaudio]

This car needs better dampers and springs far more than bracing or sway bars. The better package will be in good coilovers, front, rears stay with springs and shocks unless you strengthen the mounts for the top of the shocks as they are not designed to carry the load by adding springs around the shocks(coilovers). You can improve the ride, handling and durability over the stock setup with a simple to install solution with little if any weight gain and usually weight loss which is always good in unsprung weight.

Though many report feeling a difference adding bracing, sways, etc, it does not always translate into being faster, keeping the tires planted on the road with better springs and dampers will do far more.

Even before that lighter weight wheels, wider than stock, proper rubber, will gain the most, then the suspension, then I prefer to do bushings and a two point front brace, then look at sways which I am currently on stock with just upgrade front bushings and adjustable end links to dial out any preload.

The Fiesta ST bushings are quite firm, part of why it handles so well stock but rubber bushings tighten when flexed and thus are not quite linear as well as they allow the control arms, etc, to move around under load, not a good thing. Ultimately monoball is the best but not for the street, to much maintenance and noise, urethane with metal inserts they bushings can pivot around are the a good compromise as far less deflection and more linear travel. I did this on a C6 Vette and the ride, feedback and handling improved dramatically even on a car of that level.

Once all this stuff is done then address bracing, better yet a roll cage but not practical or usually safe for the street.

Another option few will or have done, fill the chassis with structural expanding foam, I did a Scion tC and it felt like a fully caged car, before we caged it, it was a long, tedious and messy process and still cost $600 at distributor price but we used 360 liquid oz of foam.

The Fiesta has a very rigid body structure by design and due to crash safely laws, look at how well the chassis has held up in some very hard crashes.

 

[BRGT350]

This car needs better dampers and springs far more than bracing or sway bars. The better package will be in good coilovers, front, rears stay with springs and shocks unless you strengthen the mounts for the top of the shocks as they are not designed to carry the load by adding springs around the shocks(coilovers). You can improve the ride, handling and durability over the stock setup with a simple to install solution with little if any weight gain and usually weight loss which is always good in unsprung weight.

Though many report feeling a difference adding bracing, sways, etc, it does not always translate into being faster, keeping the tires planted on the road with better springs and dampers will do far more.

Even before that lighter weight wheels, wider than stock, proper rubber, will gain the most, then the suspension, then I prefer to do bushings and a two point front brace, then look at sways which I am currently on stock with just upgrade front bushings and adjustable end links to dial out any preload.

The Fiesta ST bushings are quite firm, part of why it handles so well stock but rubber bushings tighten when flexed and thus are not quite linear as well as they allow the control arms, etc, to move around under load, not a good thing. Ultimately monoball is the best but not for the street, to much maintenance and noise, urethane with metal inserts they bushings can pivot around are the a good compromise as far less deflection and more linear travel. I did this on a C6 Vette and the ride, feedback and handling improved dramatically even on a car of that level.

Once all this stuff is done then address bracing, better yet a roll cage but not practical or usually safe for the street.

Another option few will or have done, fill the chassis with structural expanding foam, I did a Scion tC and it felt like a fully caged car, before we caged it, it was a long, tedious and messy process and still cost $600 at distributor price but we used 360 liquid oz of foam.

The Fiesta has a very rigid body structure by design and due to crash safely laws, look at how well the chassis has held up in some very hard crashes.

Yep, this is all very well said. Honestly, additional bracing on a street car using street tires is a waste of money. I just don't see any way to generate enough force to twist the chassis and the forces that would be generated to deform the chassis are higher than what can be fixed with the products on the market today. There is way more bushing deflection than chassis deformation under load. Bushings would be the solution there.

Sway bars are a tuning feature, and are another thing I would not bother on the ST. The only bar to add on a FWD car is a rear bar to increase oversteer, but the ST already is very tail happy. Changing sway bars is after dampers, springs, alignment, and tires have been optimized. Sway bar and tire pressure are the last little tweaks. This leaves springs and dampers, which is exactly where I would put my efforts. Actually, one of the best improvements to the ST is to the person in the driver's seat. I have been amazed at how fast a good driver can make a stock ST (or any car) go compared to a mediocre driver with a ton of parts on their car. I have been there many times over the years. I spent a fortune on my Focus only to learn that it was my driving that needed improvement. Over time, I have learned to control the car better instead of just throwing parts at it to clear up the problems caused by me.