93oct vs e40 stage 3 Vdyno comparisons needed

[masonsturbos]

Hey guys, about to pull the trigger on a e40 tune for my car-
Car made 212/282 on dyno jet stage 3 on 93, looking for dyno graphs comparing power of 93 vs e40.
If anyone could please post their dyno results I'd really appreciate it. I'd like to see the size of the differences in curves.

 

[Rhinopolis]

I'm not full stage 3 (have stock dp) and I will have a 93 octane graph and an E30 graph to share by next weekend.

I just received my E30-E40 tune file, and I am waiting on an E85 fuel tester to know what the ethanol content is at my local pump before I start mixing. Once I test the ethanol and know the percentage in the fuel, I plan to mix to E32 for a little margin of error past E30.

 

[Rhinopolis]

I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable would let me know if my understanding of ethanol fuels related to tuning is correct or not.

The tuner that I am working with says that his tune file is safe to run on mixtures between E30-E40. The rest of what is said in this post is from me and me alone.

The more ethanol content in the fuel that one uses, then the greater the volume of fuel that is required to create energy. This is in part due to the greater evaporation rate of ethanol fuels.

Once past E40, stock fuel systems (pumps, injectors, fuel rails) might not be able to support the increased fueling demands that higher content ethanol fuel requires.

A tune that will run on E30-E40 will not give greater power output just because E40 is utilized over E30, but fuel efficiency might suffer if E40 is utilized on a tune that would work just as well on E30.

Although fuel efficiency might suffer when utilizing E40 on a E30 optimized tune, the higher content ethanol fuel will help to cool the intake charge and overall engine performance BETTER, and due to the greater evaporation rate of the higher content ethanol fuel. Perhaps run E40 on track days to have a better cooling effect?

In short, there is no need to run higher than E30 on a tune file that can operate in the range of E30 to E40. Am I mostly correct with my assumptions, or off base? Trying to understand how ethanol and the various mixtures of ethanol play together when tuning.

 

[Rhinopolis]

Here you go. All logs were taken on the same stretch of flat smooth road surface and were performed in 3rd gear. Data on the car is the same in both graphs, with the exception of ambient temps which were adjusted on each graph per the correct temps.

Graph 1 was taken on the latest version of the 93 octane tune, and Graph 2 was taken on the most recent version of E30.

 

[Rhinopolis]

The car on E30 feels noticeably stronger across the board, and I am VERY pleased to see that my senses are correlated with some good data to back up that it is indeed stronger. At this point I am satisfied with the performance level of my car, and will share the recent E30 logs with the tuner to so they can perfect it in their eyes. Go E30 if you can make it make sense for you, and you wont regret it thumbsup

 

[dyn085]

I would appreciate if someone more knowledgeable would let me know if my understanding of ethanol fuels related to tuning is correct or not.

The tuner that I am working with says that his tune file is safe to run on mixtures between E30-E40. The rest of what is said in this post is from me and me alone.

The more ethanol content in the fuel that one uses, then the greater the volume of fuel that is required to create energy. This is in part due to the greater evaporation rate of ethanol fuels.

Once past E40, stock fuel systems (pumps, injectors, fuel rails) might not be able to support the increased fueling demands that higher content ethanol fuel requires.

A tune that will run on E30-E40 will not give greater power output just because E40 is utilized over E30, but fuel efficiency might suffer if E40 is utilized on a tune that would work just as well on E30.

Although fuel efficiency might suffer when utilizing E40 on a E30 optimized tune, the higher content ethanol fuel will help to cool the intake charge and overall engine performance BETTER, and due to the greater evaporation rate of the higher content ethanol fuel. Perhaps run E40 on track days to have a better cooling effect?

In short, there is no need to run higher than E30 on a tune file that can operate in the range of E30 to E40. Am I mostly correct with my assumptions, or off base? Trying to understand how ethanol and the various mixtures of ethanol play together when tuning.

You're mostly correct with your post. The reason that more fuel has to be injected with higher E-blends is because of the stoich differences with increasing content, i.e.-it takes more fuel per volume of air needed for a complete burn the higher the ethanol content.

Also, going with higher blends does result in more power, but it's not proportionate to the fuel consumption and therefore less economical. If you wanted cheap fuel for the maximum power output at the drag strip you would want E85 (if you could fuel it), you just wouldn't see a high enough bump in power to justify running it for your daily commute once you factored-in the loss in mileage. It's a bell-curve and the most efficiency-per-dollar comes in around E30-ish.

Nice numbers, btw.

 

[Rhinopolis]

Thank you for the explanation, and the car feels strong......

 

[Wimp Lo]

It is my understanding that our stock turbo can not generate enough boost to take advantage of higher ethanol percentages.

I used to think it was fuel system capacity but since then I've seen much higher numbers on E30 and the stock fuel system.

That is an interesting theory about using E40 to increase cooling. if the tune is good at E40, it couldn't hurt.

 

[Rhinopolis]

As I understand ethanol and due to the increased octane and knock resistance that it offers, this allows for higher boost pressures and increased timing to be ran more safely.

On the AP I am seeing boost pressures max out at around 25.50 psi, with slight knock only showing on engine braking decel and after a fun run.

Ignition corrections are beautiful, and afr's are too. To me this tune is perfect, plus I haven't seen coolant temps on the AP spike above 195F (briefly when hard on the boost) and then they average out at around 186F. Oil temps per the AP have peaked at 206F, and are typically in the range of 186F-196F depending on my speed. Cruising at 85mph and oil stayed at around 196F.

All of this is with cooler outside ambient air temps of 70F, and now that summer is settling in the 90F and above days will be here soon.

My next mod will be an upgraded Mishimoto oil cooler plus DHM crash bar.

 

[dyn085]

It is my understanding that our stock turbo can not generate enough boost to take advantage of higher ethanol percentages.

I used to think it was fuel system capacity but since then I've seen much higher numbers on E30 and the stock fuel system.

That is an interesting theory about using E40 to increase cooling. if the tune is good at E40, it couldn't hurt.

No, we're limited by the amount of fuel we can flow for the amount of air the turbo can move. If we're moving 21 lbs of air per minute then that will be the same regardless of fuel used but we need significantly more fuel for that air when running .82 lambda (both numbers examples for math) considering the vast difference in stoichiometric values of E0 (~14.68:1) compared to E85 (~9.8:1). Even if you don't do the math you can see that you're using more fuel per air at stoich when running E85 than running .8 lambda at WOT for E0 (14.68*.8=11.64:1).

 

[Wimp Lo]

DHM has an E30 tune for their quick spool kit that makes 330whp on stock DI fuel system, no aux fuel.

If the BSFC is similar, that is a lot more fuel volume than you need for 230 whp with the stock turbo.

That DHM power is at a higher rpm so the HPFP is pumping more quickly but that tells me if you are running out of fuel volume before you run out of boost, your tune isn't quite there yet.

 

[masonsturbos]

A e30 or 40 tune is limited by the turbo, after you turn up the boost you're just hearing the air and really making it less dense which is no Bueno- this turbo maxes out at around 21/22 lbs/min, the fuel system is good for 300-320 on e30, there are no benefits to run higher ethanol percentages for us because the added fuel consumption does not outweigh the pros from running straight e85 on the stock turbo. We simply do not push enough air to really need any higher octane fuel. When big turbo, stepping up will make a difference.

 

[dyn085]

DHM has an E30 tune for their quick spool kit that makes 330whp on stock DI fuel system, no aux fuel.

If the BSFC is similar, that is a lot more fuel volume than you need for 230 whp with the stock turbo.

That DHM power is at a higher rpm so the HPFP is pumping more quickly but that tells me if you are running out of fuel volume before you run out of boost, your tune isn't quite there yet.

You'll run out of fuel volume on the OEM turbo on E85. How many OEM-turbo owners are running straight E85 on their stock fuel system? For as many people as there are that want to cheap out on power I would have to imagine there would be quite a few by now...

I haven't followed the DHM kit, but it seems like there's a recommendation for aux fuel in the product notes-

Not saying that people aren't putting down that power on E30 with no aux fuel, just that I can't immediately recall the info.

 

[masonsturbos]

The stock fuel system is maxed around 300-320hp on e30

 

[Wimp Lo]

That is old information, since then DHM did 330 whp on E30 with that kit and no aux fuel or meth.

It surprised the hell out of me too.

I'm going to have to start mixing up E30 when I get my kit so I don't have to live with the 91 octane power hit because there is no 93 octane around here.

 

[dyn085]

Old information or not, even Stratified stated that the HPFP would 'have a hard time keeping up' when running full E85 on the stock turbo. E30-40 is not a limit, it's simply the best overall solution. If anything would keep us from going above that e-blend besides the HPFP it would be because of already being tuned at MBT, not because our turbo can't generate more boost. Besides, I have seen more than a few logs of FiST's tuned to nearly 30 psi...

The only place that I could find an E30, stock fuel, chart was this one. Admittedly, I'm not going to spend too much time searching for it. You can see the fuel system give up at 6400 rpm, well before the 330 hp, and it's lean (at least, leaner than my preference) a full 1k before. You can also see that the turbo isn't making full boost until ~4300 rpm, well beyond where the stock turbo would have made its most stringent demands on the HPFP. Maybe I'm wrong and there was still fueling headroom and it's just tuned to run that lean, Idk because I'm not trying to second-guess him, but it definitely doesn't show anything relating to being able to run full E85 on the OEM turbo.

This is a 3rd gear pull of the same car on e30 stock fuel system

 

[Wimp Lo]

Full E85 and E30 are quite different.

I was talking about E30 and mentioned that several times.

 

[DHM1]

Stock fuel system no aux on e30-e40 will show signs of not keeping up pass 300whp just about everytime. Down low the HPFP is maxed out and up top the injectors run out. Most applications i command about 11.9-12.4 typically. With the 320-340whp cars on stock fuel systems they will touch 13.0 at max rpm. With out central DI systems is still very say for such short time spent there.

On race gas i have hit 355whp on the stock fuel system.

Now! with aux fuel i recently did a e65mix we found that at 320whp on e65 the low pressure fuel pump was not keeping up. I was not able to test any higher due to that. But with that calculation i firmly believe that e85 with a aux system on a stock turbo or anything in the 250-260whp range is doable. How ever i find that we can hit MBT on e30 at those power levels.

Hope this helps

Russ

 

[dyn085]

Full E85 and E30 are quite different.

I was talking about E30 and mentioned that several times.

As I've been talking about above E30 and have mentioned it several times as well. Maybe it would have been better if I brought up hitting MBT on lower blends sooner.

Stock fuel system no aux on e30-e40 will show signs of not keeping up pass 300whp just about everytime. Down low the HPFP is maxed out and up top the injectors run out. Most applications i command about 11.9-12.4 typically. With the 320-340whp cars on stock fuel systems they will touch 13.0 at max rpm. With out central DI systems is still very say for such short time spent there.

On race gas i have hit 355whp on the stock fuel system.

Now! with aux fuel i recently did a e65mix we found that at 320whp on e65 the low pressure fuel pump was not keeping up. I was not able to test any higher due to that. But with that calculation i firmly believe that e85 with a aux system on a stock turbo or anything in the 250-260whp range is doable. How ever i find that we can hit MBT on e30 at those power levels.

Hope this helps

Russ

Absolutely helps, thanks for your input!