Track day tire thread

[Pete]

I know there is a lot of info out there scattered through our forum and lots of info in the meaty tire thread. But I was thinking about talking and discussing tires for track only events. Where we can talk about tire pressure, heat cycling (how many), costs, tire life (how many track events). And of course comparing tires against each other for our Fiesta platform.

So I will start. Prices on tire rack are not including shipping

PILOT SPORT CUP 2
215/45-17 $1,481.76 for a set


P ZERO TROFEO
205/45-17 $660.00 for a set


P ZERO TROFEO R
205/50ZR15 $561.40 for a set
225/50ZR15 $624.00 for a set

225/50ZR16 $705.44 for a set
??245/45ZR16?? $744.00 for a set
205/45-17 $Special order for a set


ADVAN A048
205/50R15 $864.00 for a set

225/45R16 $876.00 for a set


VENTUS Z214
205/50ZR15 $672.00 for a set
225/45ZR15 $700.00 for a set

205/50ZR16 $692.00 for a set
225/50ZR16 $720.00 for a set
??245/45ZR16?? $792.00 for a set


PROXES RR
205/50ZR15 $699.24 for a set
225/45ZR15 $747.08 for a set
225/50ZR15 $773.20 for a set

??245/45ZR16?? $915.80 for a set

??235/40ZR17?? $888.48 for a set


PROXES RA1
205/50ZR15 $685.92 for a set
225/45ZR15 $721.84 for a set
225/50ZR15 $758.48 for a set

??225/50ZR16?? $857.28 for a set
??245/45ZR16?? $898.32 for a set

??235/40ZR17?? $871.56 for a set


PROXES R888
205/50ZR15 $544.00 for a set
225/45R15 $608.00 for a set
225/50ZR15 $636.00 for a set

195/50ZR16 $700.00 for a set
225/45ZR16 $680.00 for a set
245/45R16?? $780.00 for a set

205/40ZR17 $704.00 Special/close out sale
235/40ZR17?? $648 Special/close out sale


G-FORCE R1
205/50ZR15 $820.00 for a set
225/50ZR15 $857.60 for a set

225/50ZR16 $860.00 for a set
??245/45ZR16?? $904.00 for a set

??235/40ZR17?? $1056.00 for a set


G-FORCE R1 S
205/50ZR15 $786.32 for a set
225/50ZR15 $740.00 for a set

225/50ZR16 $756.00 for a set
??245/45ZR16?? $916.00 for a set


R7
A7

I didn't list all the sizes for the hoosier tires because there are so many different choices there would not be an issue in finding the size you would want to run. I have no first hand experience with the r compound tires but have done a tone of reading. So for those of you track day junkies that have the experience please chime in. From what I have read the Hoosier tires are pretty much the stickiest tire you can put on a car. Although they are not cheap for example a 205/45ZR16 costs $1020.00. On tire rack the ventus is ranked the number one tire which I believe is heavily based on how much longer the tread life last on it compared to the other tires. It isn't the best tire when it comes to grip but it would stretch your dollar farther. Afterall we are driving fiesta's.

Most of these tires would be great for dry traction but I also put in some tires for the wet conditions. It looks like the least expensive tire for a 17" wheel would be the P ZERO TROFEO. I have heard great things about the handling of this tire but that it does wear significantly faster than the cup 2's. I also included some sizes that would possibly be the max one could go with. Those of the ?? around the sizes. But again for those fender rolling and possibly pulling would have to be done to fit. What is your opinion or your experience with the tires listed? Also if I missed any track only tires I will be glad to add them to the list.

 

[Siestarider]

I have new 215/45/16 BFG Rival S from Tire rack, felt greasy first track day, ambient 80-90F. Gradually reduced pressures from stock 39/36 cold (added about 8 lbs hot) 35F 32R (hot), seemed like 37/35 hot was best. I did not get a good heat cure on them before track, although I tried running a 100' cul-de-sac hard both ways about 5 minutes before the authorities showed up (I explained new tires, scrubbing mold release agent off). So the real heat cure was at track. I am DD'ing them until next track day. Not very good in wet, excellent dry. Look meaty. May also be a little too wide for 7" rims, although Tire rack shows dimensions mounted on 7" rim.

 

[Siestarider]

Post Sebring update, Rival S felt like different tires at Sebring, excellent lateral grip and braking. Settled on 35 F and 32 rear cold, but honestly had enough on plate driving that I did not change pressures but once, should have tried lowering pressures more but having too much fun chasing new PB's.

Fronts look evenly worn, about half tread left. Basically three track days plus a little DD. I guess they needed that initial heat cycle, although a frustrating track day to get it. Will find a better way next set. I hope to get three more track days out of them.

 

[willsolo]

Here are some other tires to add to the list:

205/40-17 FALKEN AZENIS RT-615 - $337 for a set of 4.
205/40-17 Nitto NT-01 - Price Varies
215/40-17 FEDERAL 595 RS-R - $330 for a set of 4.

 

[Pete]

Just bought another set of 16x7 rota slipstreams for the track. I will be trying the yokohama advan A048 in 195/50/16. I am looking to do streets of willow again to get a good comparison of time difference. Last time I was there on Bridgestone RE71r and did 1:32 consistently. Looking to go within the month.

 

[polyol]

Your choices are not right for a dedicated set of track tires, if that is what you want.

Hoosier A6/7 for Autox or R6/7 for extended track day use. Kuhmo V710's are also a very nice option. Every tire you listed will be slower than a true slick by a lot.

End of thread...

 

[RAAMaudio]

This thread is about track tires, not race tires, big difference

Hoosiers are for racers in a class that allows them or somebody with deep pockets on a street/track car and will gain a big points hit if running in any sanctioned event like NASA TT or RR, maybe even some autocross situations.

Some have to consider budget as well as lap times, how much does it really cost to run the stickiest tires?

Tires, state fees, taxes if applicable, mounting, balancing, life span, heat cycles, pure race tires are very expensive to use and thus some might not be able to go to the track as much thus less practice which is always better to learn to be faster unless one is a very experienced and or gifted driver.

With the life span of Hoosiers being what they are you would likely want to show up with a minimum of 6 wheels and tires so you can move things around the get the most life out of them, I would show up with 8 or more if I was running them, I had 12 when I was doing a bit of racing on them, $$$$$$$$$ and the space to carry them all, cannot drive to the track on them, etc....

Unless they changed the formula Hoosiers have a fairly low number of heat cycles they can endure and wear fast but often you heat cycle them out before they wear out.

One more point to add, most if not all pure race tires have a very low limit of forgiveness, over do it and you can be in trouble immediately.

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Here is what I recommend and I have had a great deal of track tires, the best bang for the buck I have tried so far, very forgiving if overly aggressive, do not heat cycle out so you can run them to the cord, cost less which again includes mounting, balance, taxes, etc as less time needed done the less it costs.

Toyo RA1 or R888 and in 15 or 16" on light weight wheels.

I have used both extensively and am using shaved and heat cycled RA1 I buy used, fresh off pro race teams, around $400 shipped a set and I make very fast lap times on them and get a lot of sessions from them as well. Shaved tires are around 1/2 tread depth, I have seven 20 minute sessions on 4 of the tires out of the 6 I take with me, one has around 2 sessions left, one around 3-4 the others at least 5-6 more, average life on a very fast track would of worked out to around 11 sessions, around $10 per tire including mounting and balancing.

I have driven to and from many events on the RA1 and R888 without issue and some even use them full time on cars they do not put a lot of miles on.

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For not much more money I am seriously considering the Federals as they will have more tread depth, if they hold up, do not heat cycle out, might save me considerable money, and time going to the tire shop. However, would have a bit more issue with maximizing the use out of them and hauling around enough as might move to 15x10 front, 245 tires, 15x9 rear, 225 tires, 4 fronts and 2-3 rears so I can rotate for maximum life and not run out of tire before all the sessions are over.

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The Michelin is insanely overpriced and not the fastest tire made.

The V710 is an autocross tire that holds up well for the track if used properly but still very costly to run.

The Rival S is more of a summer street/autocross tire, softer, heats up fast, wears out pretty fast as well as shown. I love mine on the street and will use them if I autocross, but not on track until well worn to use them up if not heat cycled out.





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AND, go by the actual tire specs as always, not by generic and often misleading sidewall numbers.

If really serious about the track do the 4x100 conversion and buy well made low cost light weight wheels in 8" wide and run as much rubber on the ground as you can yet ensure properly supported sidewalls which I have gladly helped others work out and anybody else that is interested is welcome to ask, I am here for you

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[polyol]

Track tires...race tires, to me those are just words that could be used interchangeably. Some of the tires he listed are more expensive than a good set of Hoosiers or V710's.

If you want good wear go with R7's rather than the A7's They are a harder compound with a higher tire life in mind. V710's in general have a longer life over the Hoosiers A6's, but do not provide the same level of grip.

So what does the OP want to do? Autox? Track days? What are the dedicated tires going to be used for? All I can tell you is people that show up with R-Comp street tires are at a huge disadvantage compared to those that show up with a true race tire.

 

[Pete]

The point is to get the most bang for your buck. Our own personal review of track tires. Everyone has a different budget. So ideally you want a tire that grips well and lasts a long time. This is supposed to be where we put our real life imputs on how long a tire lasted, the cost, and how it felt for the driver. Everyone has different skill levels and there isn't a whole lot of detail comparing track tires to one another. Its all about details and a place to dump all that info. As tires are the most important thing on a car. Since it is the only thing touching the road.

 

[polyol]

I think I understand. You are not looking for dedicated track tires then?

My personal experience is this: Once you go Hoosier you never go back, but it comes with a cost. Mine last me 1-2 years as dedicated track tires only. To me that is a good cost for the level of performance they give. Granted that is on 60-second courses. If I was on 10-min course runs I would go to a R6/7, or consider r-comp street tire like the ones you listed above.

 

[Pete]

Yeah most of my sessions last 20 minutes per run, so I need something that will have some longevity. I almost went with hoosiers to try but from what I read they have the best grip and like you said you don't want to go back. I almost got the r888 like rick mentioned above but I got a deal on the yokohamas. I want my tires to last at least 6 track days. If I get more thats awesome but the re81rs I ran last time only would have lasted 3 maybe 4 track days.

 

[polyol]

How does your rig hold up under those long track day runs? Any problem with overheating or the sorts?

 

[Pete]

How does your rig hold up under those long track day runs? Any problem with overheating or the sorts?

So far i have only had issues with my previous intercooler heat soaking. Coolant and oil temps have been fine. But I have not run the car in temps above 70 degrees. My grill is opened up and the crash bar was modified to allow more airflow. I also run water and two bottles of royal purple ice. Been on track with other fiesta's and in the same conditions they were having overheating problems are at least noticing the car getting hot.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I think you are confusing track day with autocross, 60 seconds is not a track event, 20-30 minute sessions are typical at track days, 3-5 sessions per day. 10 minutes would be a very short track session, I have never seen one that short.

If you got 1-2 years out of Hoosiers it was not on at a track event unless it was a few single laps on a very short track.

 

[polyol]

No I get it, ive done both. For track days I use R6's or R7's, its what they are designed for. For autox A6 or A7 or V710's (V710's are a better deal but do not grip as hard). This is not the cheap way to go, totally get that. Its just once you go to one of these tires it makes the others seem like child's play...and bottom line tires that wear out faster tend to have more grip than those that wear out slower...not always, but its a good general rule.

The 888's seem like a good deal if you are looking for a cheap way to do it...lots of people like them.

 

[Siestarider]

I took my Rival S's off this weekend to examine closely. Three trackdays since new, all at clockwise tracks. Left front near wear bars, right front next, left rear next in terms of wear. Right rear does not look new, but less than 1/2 the wear of left front.

I believe they will be good for three more, should have paid closer attention and rotated sooner.

BFG literature says Rivals do not benefit from initial heat cycling. My experience so far, at least on my car, they definitely improved after first trackday. Going back to PBIR May 28, see if they have a new PB in them.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I am pretty sure to get the best out of them you would want to drive the track like doing a TT event, warm them up, which does not take much time, find a clear place in traffic, haul arse a lap or two, take a cool down lap or two, find a clear spot and go at it again for another lap or two.

This is the only time I would use something like the A7 or in most cases the V710 which can handle the heat a bit longer. I plan to run the A7 like this when I start getting serious about TT events, if I do so, it will be faster than any other tire made if used within its heat range.

 

[Pete]

Had a track day 5/29/16 at Streets of Willow In California. Temps were 94 degrees at its hottest. I ran the Yokohama Advan A048 tires in 195/50/16 on 16x7 wheels. This is in comparison to the Re71R I was running last time in 205/45/16.

The yokohama's took one lap to get warmed up and two laps to be really sticky. The grip was incredible for a 195 tire. I was absolutely blown away by it. Corner exit was improved greatly as I was able to put the power down without any of the wheels spinning. Before I felt like I needed an lsd with the stock turbo but now with an R compound I do not think it is necessary until one upgrades their turbo. I got the tires heat cycled by tire rack before using them and they seem to have a much better lifespan then the re71r. running the bridgstone it looked like one could get 3-4 track days (if that is all they were used for) out of them. I only got 2 track days since I also used them as a daily tire. So they lasted me 7k miles in total. The Yokohama still has great life and upon further inspection of the tire wear and studying the photos taken at the track the tread wear is actually pretty spot on at the front. In the back the outside is worn a little more but there isn't much wear compared to the front (running -3.3 degrees of camber in the front). The tires have great grip that you can see the sidewalls flexing in the photos (I still need to purchase them and I will post later). The Re71r did not flex as much thus causing more slide. Also when comparing photos of the car in action, with the Re71r it doesn't look like my car has any body roll. With the Yokohama's you can clearly see the body roll. Also I ran 28 psi front and 30 psi rear cold temps. When hot I was getting 38 front and 38 rear with nitrogen in the tires (bleed out multiple times to reduce the amount of oxygen in the tires).

I feel the Yokohama will last at least 6 track days with tread life. So it will be a matter of how many heat cycles they can take. It is a great upgrade for a track only tire without going to an 8 inch rim. Keeps everything light weight on the rotating mass. As you can see from the pictures the 195 fills up the 7 inch wide wheel pretty good. I honestly thought there was going to be some stretch but there wasn't.

 

[Siestarider]

Great Report Pete.

My 5/28/16 PBIR date with 215/45/16 Rival S w/three track days on them, cold pressure at 35 F 32 R, new PB in first session. Ambient 85-92F morning to afternoon.

Used new Joe's Temp meter on tires after every session, deliberately did not run a "cool lap", jumped out and measured temps fast as possible.

LF was running a little higher temp middle than inside or outside, took out a pound after first session and left them alone rest of day. Set another PB third session. Last session, ran three consecutive laps to finish day all within 0.5 sec of PB and within 0.1 sec of each other.

I interpret this last result as me getting better and tires not fading/overheating as they are rumored to do. Car balanced and easy to drive.

They measured 45F/43R hot pressures at end of last session. This sounds too high to me, but temp measurements were consistent across tread per location on car and camber. 170's LF, 160's RF, 150's Rears.

All round, very happy with tires since being disappointed first time out. Maybe getting a little harder with age, and easier to feel limits of grip.

 

[Pete]

I would like to get a temp gauge. There is a lot of stuff I want to get now that isn't a car part but helps with tracking the car. I too can relate to feeling like as a driver I am improving over seeing the full benefits of the tires. I am going to be trying different tracks now and when its cool again go back to willow springs for an update on track times. I feel like I could have pushed the tires even more then what I did.