The merits of stopping at a stage 2+ setup

[jeff]

Yea, I enjoyed the "penis envy" comment (not really, it made no sense). I read Twolf's post as offering you the chance to show that the intake claim was wrong or right and gathering some of the data you keep talking about.

I personally don't see much benefit to this since it's assumptions on both sides, whether you admit that you have done your fair share of it or not. But what do I know, just a modder that has no credit card bills and bought his ST in cash (which you seem to think about anyone with "expensive" mods)

Well said...kudos on no credit bills, me too. I don't mean to generalize that anyone with good mods is in credit debt, sorry for that. Just got sick of being bullied.

I was just pointing out that we are on a car forum. I personally don't care what cars you have in the garage... how hot your wife is... the fact that your kids just got honor roll... this isn't Facebook, this is a Fiesta ST forum and that is what most people come here to look at.

I did not see anybody bring up your age or religion, because I've been slammed with work and off of the forums for a week or two... haven't read the stuff I missed.

I made the dyno offer because I'm confident in my opinion. Not because I'm trying to dick measure, I just want this conversation to end. If I had a CPE intake (which I might get one day because they sure are pretty) I would do the tests myself and finally put this horrific argument to rest (but it would be pointless, because this is the nature of car forums. No matter what you say, what you post, or what proof you give there's always somebody there to argue the opposite)

I wish this thread would just get locked at this point, there is nothing constructive coming out of it, it's just repetition of stuff that has been covered/posted about 500x thus far.

Bottom line?

I'm happy with my car, you're happy with your car. I'm done trying to convince you you're wrong, or that I'm right, or whatever.

I mean even though I think an intake is probably the lowest performance to dollar ratio mod you can get, at least you drive a ST and not a GTI or base Fiesta or something.

Let's all just shut up.

Very well said, props to you.

Beyond what I described, I was called many names, cursed at, made fun of, etc. you have not done that which I respect.

You're right, this stuff has been talked about a lot but for newer people like myself it is good to have a fresh conversation for those of us who are happy with the stock turbo. i'm pretty sure the moderators are close to closing this thread, I will start a new one of the same nature and enjoy a conversation with people that are in the same place.

 

[dyn085]

There's literally no reason to lock this thread. You may think your personal life has some bearing on this discussion but it doesn't. You created this thread to discuss but seem to get mad (not literally) that people are discussing. You have the ability to collect data to support your side of the discussion, assuming it supported your side, but no matter how many times you're asked you adamantly refuse.

That, in and of itself, says volumes.

I've already said that I will do testing and post datalogs whenever I buy my cp-e intake. I will openly admit if it shows that I'm wrong and will even post the data showing it and explain what it says and how it's applicable. I encourage peer evaluation and knowledge sharing because it's the only way a community, as a whole, becomes educated and evolves.

The reason that I'm confident in my position is because I've seen a lot of member datalogs. You keep bringing up V-Dyno but that's only one single tool you can use for comparison; .csv files and Datazap are much more effective.

While my personal life such as family and house are irrelevant, my job is 100% relevant because I make metal fly. Even though that is irrelevant as a whole, it means that I'm very well versed in creating repeatable tests and evaluating the data. I don't brag about it and rarely bring it up because I'm just not that kind of person, but it's more pertinent than where I live and what nutty family looks like.

Also, I'm left-coast so I tend to post later in the day than many along with later into the night. Don't stroke your ego too much with my post times, I just don't have to wake up until 4am so some of my later times are past other members' midnight...but not my midnight. Time-zones exist sometimes.

 

[JasonHaven]

Personal stuff aside, I always appreciate these discussions... but I think I've said this in the past a couple times.

It helps dial in my expectations, even if I decide to go in a non optimal path of mods.

 

[MKVIIST]

I just skimmed through 23 pages on this thread and I see a lot of good debates, nothing too extreme that would warrant this thread being locked or edited unless the OP request to have it locked. We're all adults here and should be able to handle a little bit of healthy debates without a moderator constantly getting involved.

 

[jeff]

Personal stuff aside, I always appreciate these discussions... but I think I've said this in the past a couple times.

It helps dial in my expectations, even if I decide to go in a non optimal path of mods.

Glad to hear this is helpful to you!

I just skimmed through 23 pages on this thread and I see a lot of good debates, nothing too extreme that would warrant this thread being locked or edited unless the OP request to have it locked. We're all adults here and should be able to handle a little bit of healthy debates without a moderator constantly getting involved.

Thanks! That is good.

Now we can return to discussing what is relevant here: The merits of a stage 2 setup.

 

[dyn085]

Personal stuff aside, I always appreciate these discussions... but I think I've said this in the past a couple times.

It helps dial in my expectations, even if I decide to go in a non optimal path of mods.

And this is all I ever try to get across to people, an accurate idea of what to realistically expect from a modification. If someone wants to buy an intake because they like it then that's great and they should, but if they buy it because think they're going to 250 whp/ 280 wtq based on OMFGBBQ statements then they're going to be disappointed. I lost a lot of money on a modification that people were playing-up and not fully disclosing in the past and ever since then I have exerted a lot of effort at trying to get people to collect/share data and simply be honest with it.

Like I've said a few times already, I have a cp-e intake on my FoST and I love it. There's no other intake that I am willing to or interested in put on my FiST when the time comes. When I do, though, it won't be under the illusion of any massive hp gains because I know better.

 

[jeff]

And this is all I ever try to get across to people, an accurate idea of what to realistically expect from a modification. If someone wants to buy an intake because they like it then that's great and they should, but if they buy it because think they're going to 250 whp/ 280 wtq based on OMFGBBQ statements then they're going to be disappointed. I lost a lot of money on a modification that people were playing-up and not fully disclosing in the past and ever since then I have exerted a lot of effort at trying to get people to collect/share data and simply be honest with it.

Like I've said a few times already, I have a cp-e intake on my FoST and I love it. There's no other intake that I am willing to or interested in put on my FiST when the time comes. When I do, though, it won't be under the illusion of any massive hp gains because I know better.

I agree with all, well said.

Remember as I keep saying in my first post, i presented a wide range of ways to get to my "price point" for power, one without intake ($1000) and etc. and one with ($2000). And I never said or had an illusion of "massive HP gains"...I just said there were gains. In my experience anything under 10 hp you are hard pressed to really notice unless you do this for a living. I don't know that I ever even said "it made a noticeable difference" anywhere beyond the noise, just that I believed the data and opinions I was finding in my research prior to purchase/install.

 

[dyn085]

I'm glad that you're coming around, even if your memory is a bit off.

In my experience anything under 10 hp you are hard pressed to really notice unless you do this for a living. I don't know that I ever even said "it made a noticeable difference" anywhere beyond the noise, just that I believed the data and opinions I was finding in my research prior to purchase/install.

No sir, true cold air intakes like the CP-E have been proven to bring significant increases.

Post #67.....+ 8HP + 10TQ:
http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...ot-Intake-System?p=81866&viewfull=1#post81866

 

[jeff]

I'm glad that you're coming around, even if your memory is a bit off.

"Significant increase" is not the same as "noticeable difference". Yes, based on the dyno charts it made a significant increase, but that does not mean that I noticed it, nor did I anywhere say that i did other than the noise. You can eat fried chicken and pizza for 20 years and significantly increase your blood pressure and cholesterol, but not notice it till you go to the doctor and have a test run (dyno) and see the data. You can add a catch can and collect several ounces of oil between oil changes, yes, significant, but do you notice it's change on the way the car runs? No.

 

[jeff]

Did a few more logs this morning and things look about the same with my tune. I revised my V-dyno results from earlier, I forgot to add weight for gas. Didn't change the curve much but I think these plots do a nice job to show the progression of my custom tune revisions:

Red = 1st tune, power came on later than I hoped for
Blue = 2nd tune, power came earlier
Green = 3rd and final tune, Mr. Brunson got the torque to the sweet spot where my car can handle it while still maintaining 95% traction.

While these show a pretty realistic difference in my revisions, I have zero trust in the V-dyno. Why? I took 5 or 6 other logs in the same conditions and they were waaaaaaaaaay off these ones, either showing different curves or more or less power. My car does not have 313 tq, I don't care what V-dyno says. So meh. I was a bit surprised by that, but probably shouldn't be.

Hope this info and thread has been helpful to some other folks in the same place. I think I'm at the end of my journey in terms of these power mods.

 

[antarctica24]

And this is all I ever try to get across to people, an accurate idea of what to realistically expect from a modification. If someone wants to buy an intake because they like it then that's great and they should, but if they buy it because think they're going to 250 whp/ 280 wtq based on OMFGBBQ statements then they're going to be disappointed. I lost a lot of money on a modification that people were playing-up and not fully disclosing in the past and ever since then I have exerted a lot of effort at trying to get people to collect/share data and simply be honest with it.

Like I've said a few times already, I have a cp-e intake on my FoST and I love it. There's no other intake that I am willing to or interested in put on my FiST when the time comes. When I do, though, it won't be under the illusion of any massive hp gains because I know better.

So what was the part you lost your money on, and for which car?

 

[dyn085]

So what was the part you lost your money on, and for which car?

A set of coilovers for a previous vehicle.

 

[WeTheNorth]

To me this car feels slow, very very slow. Is it even worth it to go past stage 3? Ethonal is not an option up here

 

[Wimp Lo]

If your ST feels slow, something is wrong. A stock Fiesta ST may not be terribly fast but it is not slow.

The point of this thread is that with the stock turbocharger you quickly hit diminishing returns with almost all bolt on parts.

Big turbo or hybrid is the next logical step after a good "stage 2" setup because "stage 3" adds very little except cost.

There is some point between bone stock and full race that will be most satisfactory for everyone. If you feel "stage 2" is slow, maybe your point is big turbo. You should be able to get 290 whp on pump gas or more if you choose the right setup. That is significantly more than stock and should not feel slow.

 

[808FiST]

What is the right set up for a 290 whp on pump gas in your experience?

You should be able to get 290 whp on pump gas or more if you choose the right setup. That is significantly more than stock and should not feel slow.

 

[WeTheNorth]

I am currently @Stage-1 with a downpipe, idk if it's the heat lately but the car feels stupid slow. I wanted to see what this car feels like @Stg-3 before I really came to terms with the idea of a BT or cyborg

 

[frankiefiesta]

What is the right set up for a 290 whp on pump gas in your experience?

A deadhook turbo kit

 

[frankiefiesta]

I am currently @Stage-1 with a downpipe, idk if it's the heat lately but the car feels stupid slow. I wanted to see what this car feels like @Stg-3 before I really came to terms with the idea of a BT or cyborg

Probably getting used to the power. These cars are stupid slow after 4000rpms. With a cyborg or big turbo feels like a different animal. Car pulls hard to redline

 

[jeff]

If your ST feels slow, something is wrong. A stock Fiesta ST may not be terribly fast but it is not slow.

The point of this thread is that with the stock turbocharger you quickly hit diminishing returns with almost all bolt on parts.

Big turbo or hybrid is the next logical step after a good "stage 2" setup because "stage 3" adds very little except cost.

There is some point between bone stock and full race that will be most satisfactory for everyone. If you feel "stage 2" is slow, maybe your point is big turbo. You should be able to get 290 whp on pump gas or more if you choose the right setup. That is significantly more than stock and should not feel slow.

This is really well said. Stock it's not fast but it's not slow. With the "staged" bolt ons we are discussing the car goes from decent to quick, bordering on fast. My car will probably do a 0-60 in 5.5 seconds at this point. That's about as fast as a V6 Camry. Fast? No....but getting there. Meh....I can keep up with a Camry....but it's a whole lot more fun.

My buddy who drives an Audi S3 drove my car for the first time yesterday. He floored it, his reaction was "hmmmmmm". Coming from a fast car, his opinion was that it was quite torquey, fast enough, and handled incredibly.

So yeah, if your car (Venom) feels slow it's time to spend some money. But it could be all the hype....reading about a 300hp FiST does something to your brain if you're not careful, and you may never find yourself content until you have the fastest car which will cost you, by that time you maybe could have afforded that S3.....

 

[jeff]

Sooooooooooooooooooooo.................

Been working like a madman lately but I finally finished a remodel project and have some time so I thought I'd update this thread...

I swore I wouldn't put an exhaust on my car but somehow I ended up listening to a bunch of exhaust videos over the last few weeks, and absolutely fell in love with the Mountune sound and reviews, true it's not ideal for a big turbo but I'm quite happy with the OEM turbo....emailed the good chaps at Mountune USA and they were kind enough to give me a decent deal so here we are...

I put the car on ramps today intending to install - ramps were fine for my Acura and Toyota catbacks in the past - but I'm too big and the FiST is way too low especially to get a sawzall in there. So I'm on hold till I can hook up with my buddy who has a lift. Sigh.....

Once installed I'd still consider myself at a "stage 2+" setup because I'm sticking with the OEM downpipe....the gains in the low end are not worth the losses on the top end so I chose not to upgrade that part seeing as I'm not going big turbo. I spoke with Adam aka Tune+ who did my original tune a few months back and he was kind enough to look at a new log for possible gains once the exhaust is installed before charging me any money.

Should be a few days or weeks till I get around to installing and getting a log done, but I'm excited to see if I can squeeze out a few more HP. Not expecting much here, I did this for the sound, but I will be extremely happy if I can find 300tq on the Vdyno after this addition. I'll post when I have more info.