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The merits of stopping at a stage 2+ setup
- Thread starter jeff
- Start date
The stage 1 OTS tunes were made with a panel filter upgrade.
Those work.
Worst case a panel filter is a $40-50 upgrade, if it is a question mark I would much rather have a $50 question mark than a $399 question mark.
I am spending more than absolutely necessary but not by that much and I'm not skimping on the parts that do build power.
Bottom line, if you are going to upgrade, go for quality and make sure the parts do what you are expecting. If a part doesn't do a lot better than stock, I don't want to take the time to make it fit.
Those work.
Worst case a panel filter is a $40-50 upgrade, if it is a question mark I would much rather have a $50 question mark than a $399 question mark.
I am spending more than absolutely necessary but not by that much and I'm not skimping on the parts that do build power.
Bottom line, if you are going to upgrade, go for quality and make sure the parts do what you are expecting. If a part doesn't do a lot better than stock, I don't want to take the time to make it fit.
I've known of CPE products from way back in the 2007 time when the Mazdaspeed 2.3 DISI was new and in aftermarket development. They tried to corner the market on their piggyback ("Standback") ecu tuning by secrecy and not pure product development. Losts of explanation excluded here but they lost my support. That said, the cpe group build excellent, top quality products and charge premium prices. I will always look at their products before I buy, but I buy based on my own knowledge and not marketing hype. I have a CPE down pipe on my fiesta because I think it is the best overall design, regardless of price. I also have a Cobb intake setup for my fiesta still in the box. When I finally change the car over to max performance for racing only I will install the Cobb intake. Not because it makes the most power on a stock turbo, but because I like their design based on their engineering. CPE tout their engineering as the best, but it is only slightly different from others because of patent laws. I'm currently running the Mountune intake box as IMO it is the best for a stock turbo setup. I also run the OEM air filter. People should judge performance parts for themselves, but I understand that the knowledge(lack of) gap and marketing hype drives many purchase decisions. I'm not bashing people for that as I do it myself in an area early on until I learn for myself what the "best" product is. Unfortunately many products decline when the bean counters try to make more money by building shit cheaper. You can't go wrong with the CPE intake setup as it is a quality built product, but please spare the knowledgeable folks the marketing hype.
I've tested the drop-in against the OEM panel filter and there is literally no change. If you have your OEM filter still then try it yourself and see. Just because items are marketed as being better or as part of a 'stage' setup it doesn't necessarily mean that they are 'necessary', which has been an underlying theme in a lot of this thread.
The key to doing a test is to keep the tune the same and already established on the ECU, and when people start doing that then they are going to start understanding what parts work versus what parts don't. If you can run a stage whatever tune and swap a part, you should be able to see a definitive gain on that tune if it actually works. Do a few runs on one setup to get a mean average, then make your swap and do a few more. If you keep your variables in check you should be able to see a quantifiable difference that you can divide into the cost to see an average dollar-per-hp. If there is a gain, that is...
Also keep in mind that just because a part makes 'x' power under a certain combination, it won't necessarily make that much power under a different combination. An example would be installing a DP on an OEM exhaust versus on an exhaust with a CBE already installed. As parts are added the gains are less, if at all.
Welcome to load-based, FI tuning using MAP sensors. There's a reason that VE doesn't need to be adjusted all the way through 'stage 3' parts, because the parts just don't add up to that drastic of a difference. You can buy an FMIC and DP for around $600 that will produce power that is roughly equal to a full 'stage 3' build, all you need is a good professional tuner. There is plenty of legitimate theory that backs all of the other parts, but once you've maxed the OEM turbo you just don't have anything left on the table because you've already maxed out your airflow...and that should be self-explanatory.
The key to doing a test is to keep the tune the same and already established on the ECU, and when people start doing that then they are going to start understanding what parts work versus what parts don't. If you can run a stage whatever tune and swap a part, you should be able to see a definitive gain on that tune if it actually works. Do a few runs on one setup to get a mean average, then make your swap and do a few more. If you keep your variables in check you should be able to see a quantifiable difference that you can divide into the cost to see an average dollar-per-hp. If there is a gain, that is...
Also keep in mind that just because a part makes 'x' power under a certain combination, it won't necessarily make that much power under a different combination. An example would be installing a DP on an OEM exhaust versus on an exhaust with a CBE already installed. As parts are added the gains are less, if at all.
Welcome to load-based, FI tuning using MAP sensors. There's a reason that VE doesn't need to be adjusted all the way through 'stage 3' parts, because the parts just don't add up to that drastic of a difference. You can buy an FMIC and DP for around $600 that will produce power that is roughly equal to a full 'stage 3' build, all you need is a good professional tuner. There is plenty of legitimate theory that backs all of the other parts, but once you've maxed the OEM turbo you just don't have anything left on the table because you've already maxed out your airflow...and that should be self-explanatory.
Thread Starter
#166
I have really enjoyed reading your vision for your car and look forward to hearing more as you install the big mouth and other planned mods.
I truly appreciate your logic in this post. But I won't be taking everything apart again, I'm happy with my decision and the data I researched in making it.
Recall that I never said a CAI was necessary, from the first post I said it was beyond the initial investment needed for my setup, rather just an add on that would add a bit more power. I clearly said that tune and FMIC was the minimal necessary setup.
Another thing for me was that cost is not an issue here. I was close to buying a new Golf R before I fell in love with the Fiesta. I came out of very powerful (STi) and very nice (TSX) cars and decided on the FiST for its many merits. I wanted an intake and CP-E was chosen for its quality, verified performance gains, and aesthetic. I don't mind paying $150 more for something that looks awesome. I'm sure we've all dropped that much or much more for bling value.
I truly appreciate your logic in this post. But I won't be taking everything apart again, I'm happy with my decision and the data I researched in making it.
Recall that I never said a CAI was necessary, from the first post I said it was beyond the initial investment needed for my setup, rather just an add on that would add a bit more power. I clearly said that tune and FMIC was the minimal necessary setup.
Another thing for me was that cost is not an issue here. I was close to buying a new Golf R before I fell in love with the Fiesta. I came out of very powerful (STi) and very nice (TSX) cars and decided on the FiST for its many merits. I wanted an intake and CP-E was chosen for its quality, verified performance gains, and aesthetic. I don't mind paying $150 more for something that looks awesome. I'm sure we've all dropped that much or much more for bling value.
When our stock turbo is maxed out, it is not pumping terribly efficiently which means that it is heating the intake charge more than it should.
The only thing that helps is a big intercooler. We don't have a lot of space for a big intercooler and none that you can buy with a down pipe for $600 are big or very high quality.
The other thing about our maxed out turbo is that the restriction through the turbine and wastegate is so high that the downpipe and cat don't have a big effect on power which is why you can save the money you would spend on a downpipe and CAI to buy a big DHM race intercooler with crash bar and probably make more power (cooler denser charge air and probably more ignition advance make that a pretty good bet).
The good part about going that route is you will never be tempted to upgrade your intercooler after that. Cyborg, big turbo or "stage 3", you can go either way without having to touch the intercooler and you have the best "stage 2" that you can get (as long as you have a good tune) if "stage 2" is where your modding ends.
I realize that the fuel injection strategy used by our ECU makes our cars insensitive to certain bolt on parts. That mostly means that when we add bolt on parts we need tuning.
I have nothing against adding some bling, that is why I have a Mountune intake hose. I'm almost positive that it does nothing despite Mishimoto's claim that their intake hose adds power and torque. On the other hand I'm almost positive it does nothing bad. The data logs showing heat soak with CAIs are almost scary. I'm sure it is not a problem with the throttle open and the car moving but I don't want to be flirting with knocking when I'm stuck in traffic. I don't know how close to that our car is but 200° IATs make me concerned.
The only thing that helps is a big intercooler. We don't have a lot of space for a big intercooler and none that you can buy with a down pipe for $600 are big or very high quality.
The other thing about our maxed out turbo is that the restriction through the turbine and wastegate is so high that the downpipe and cat don't have a big effect on power which is why you can save the money you would spend on a downpipe and CAI to buy a big DHM race intercooler with crash bar and probably make more power (cooler denser charge air and probably more ignition advance make that a pretty good bet).
The good part about going that route is you will never be tempted to upgrade your intercooler after that. Cyborg, big turbo or "stage 3", you can go either way without having to touch the intercooler and you have the best "stage 2" that you can get (as long as you have a good tune) if "stage 2" is where your modding ends.
I realize that the fuel injection strategy used by our ECU makes our cars insensitive to certain bolt on parts. That mostly means that when we add bolt on parts we need tuning.
I have nothing against adding some bling, that is why I have a Mountune intake hose. I'm almost positive that it does nothing despite Mishimoto's claim that their intake hose adds power and torque. On the other hand I'm almost positive it does nothing bad. The data logs showing heat soak with CAIs are almost scary. I'm sure it is not a problem with the throttle open and the car moving but I don't want to be flirting with knocking when I'm stuck in traffic. I don't know how close to that our car is but 200° IATs make me concerned.
Holy hell, I've never seen even CLOSE to a 200 degree IAT. And I live in Georgia, and have an Injen intake, and frequently sit in traffic.
However, the Focuses have charge temps of like, 150 degrees sitting in traffic with the stock IC and they don't knock. Realistically the second you start moving and go WOT, the engine is going to suck in more air than the engine bay can hold... All that hot air will be gone in a matter of seconds.
However, the Focuses have charge temps of like, 150 degrees sitting in traffic with the stock IC and they don't knock. Realistically the second you start moving and go WOT, the engine is going to suck in more air than the engine bay can hold... All that hot air will be gone in a matter of seconds.
Thread Starter
#170
Update....
Drove on version one of my Tune + tune this morning, holy mother of our Lord this is a different car now. The gain coming from Cobb stage 2 OTS to this is about the same as going from "stage 1" to "stage 2", or more. I am working with Adam to figure out just what is right for the feel I want for my car, and he's been great thus far. Not sure if everyone's first tune comes this way, but boost is a bit delayed but at 3500 rpms it comes on KABOOM! to the degree of about 27 psi which was not either of our plans and will be reduced I am sure for safety. It kinda feels like a big turbo car now. I'm working with him to bring boost on a bit earlier as the Cobb OTS stage 2 map does. Then the car will be about perfect for my taste. Wheelspin is still minimal, I am really liking this.
And BTW referring to the volatile conversation a few posts ago about intakes and such....I am advised that my CAI and BIG MOUTH will allow definite gains when combined with his tuning....I asked him to speak frankly about this and that was his opinion...FWIW he is highly respected here.
Drove on version one of my Tune + tune this morning, holy mother of our Lord this is a different car now. The gain coming from Cobb stage 2 OTS to this is about the same as going from "stage 1" to "stage 2", or more. I am working with Adam to figure out just what is right for the feel I want for my car, and he's been great thus far. Not sure if everyone's first tune comes this way, but boost is a bit delayed but at 3500 rpms it comes on KABOOM! to the degree of about 27 psi which was not either of our plans and will be reduced I am sure for safety. It kinda feels like a big turbo car now. I'm working with him to bring boost on a bit earlier as the Cobb OTS stage 2 map does. Then the car will be about perfect for my taste. Wheelspin is still minimal, I am really liking this.
And BTW referring to the volatile conversation a few posts ago about intakes and such....I am advised that my CAI and BIG MOUTH will allow definite gains when combined with his tuning....I asked him to speak frankly about this and that was his opinion...FWIW he is highly respected here.
Thread Starter
#175
The Cobb stage 2 OTS tune is beefy with less (23 psi) mid-range power.
The Strat "stage 2" tune (that's what I'm calling it - their one for folk with FMIC upgrade) is smooth with less down low but more mid-range (24 psi)...feels weaker though because there's no sudden power, just a smooth surge. Probably a preference thing.
The Tune + (though I am only in version 1) for my "stage 2" mods is much different than both....more like the Cobb in terms of feeling aggressive, but also smooth, and presumably smoother once we get it fine-tuned. I look forward to Adam's response to my 1st log.
***
I have talked with the Cobb folk, the Stratified folk, and Adam, all on the phone or e-mail. Everyone has a slightly different philosophy of getting power and of which mod path to take. In the end I chose Tune + because of good reputation on this forum, and I was impressed that Mr. Brunson answered the phone and chatted with me months ago way before I ordered.
The Strat "stage 2" tune (that's what I'm calling it - their one for folk with FMIC upgrade) is smooth with less down low but more mid-range (24 psi)...feels weaker though because there's no sudden power, just a smooth surge. Probably a preference thing.
The Tune + (though I am only in version 1) for my "stage 2" mods is much different than both....more like the Cobb in terms of feeling aggressive, but also smooth, and presumably smoother once we get it fine-tuned. I look forward to Adam's response to my 1st log.
***
I have talked with the Cobb folk, the Stratified folk, and Adam, all on the phone or e-mail. Everyone has a slightly different philosophy of getting power and of which mod path to take. In the end I chose Tune + because of good reputation on this forum, and I was impressed that Mr. Brunson answered the phone and chatted with me months ago way before I ordered.
Wrote an article a little while back regarding intakes and how they affect performance. Keep in mind that the pressure drop across the intake will be affected by the airflow coming through the tubing. On a smaller turbo where not as much airflow is coming through you will see less pressure drop across the intake.
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/a-technical-discussion-of-intakes-and-turbocharging/
The small turbo on the Fiesta favours low to mid RPM torque. Flow modifications allow you to flatten the torque curve somewhat and high octane fuel helps the top end as well via timing. Also keep in mind that the more flow modifications, the faster you need to spin the turbo to achieve the same boost pressure until you reach the choke point or can't maintain a needed pressure ratio in the turbine. So you may actually see that a fully bolted car, although faster than stock car, will see less boost especially up top.
http://stratifiedauto.com/blog/a-technical-discussion-of-intakes-and-turbocharging/
The small turbo on the Fiesta favours low to mid RPM torque. Flow modifications allow you to flatten the torque curve somewhat and high octane fuel helps the top end as well via timing. Also keep in mind that the more flow modifications, the faster you need to spin the turbo to achieve the same boost pressure until you reach the choke point or can't maintain a needed pressure ratio in the turbine. So you may actually see that a fully bolted car, although faster than stock car, will see less boost especially up top.
Thread Starter
#179
Thank you for chiming in here. That's a great article and it makes good sense to me.
Anyone looking for an awesome OTS stage one tune should go with Stratified....loved mine before going stage 2.
For all the beating I took defending my intake on this thread earlier, I'll point out that we now have two respected tuners (Tune+ and Stratified) and one respected vendor (CP-E) with real dyno proof validating that intakes bring performance gains on stock turbo cars.....
....versus one guy with a virtual dyno saying it doesn't.
Anyone looking for an awesome OTS stage one tune should go with Stratified....loved mine before going stage 2.
For all the beating I took defending my intake on this thread earlier, I'll point out that we now have two respected tuners (Tune+ and Stratified) and one respected vendor (CP-E) with real dyno proof validating that intakes bring performance gains on stock turbo cars.....
....versus one guy with a virtual dyno saying it doesn't.
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