The merits of stopping at a stage 2+ setup

[wireless]

Look at the fuel. It's not because of the intake... I have the wx data. Stock box was 69*, cp-e was 62*. DA (not that is matters much) was 393ft and 244ft, runs were ended at 5:24pm and 6:59pm, respectively. The reason you see a little more torque is because of the variables. So, think about this: even though it was colder on the cp-e I take runs, it only made a small, negligible difference. And it sure didn't affect spool. I believe I did two runs per intake; I took the best ones and displayed them.

All of this in another thread here on the forum. So it's not like anything is hidden.

I haven't taken the time do dig up that thread, but in that case I can't argue it I may look it up later, was just point out my observations.

 

[dyn085]

Mitch said his dyno with the CPe Intake was done the next morning. Mornings are usually cool in temperature. That's not to say the previous test wasn't done in cool temperatures as well, but it does prove Mitch didn't do a "controlled test". An accurate dyno test needs to be done back to back, with a decent amount of time in between so that that the 2nd pull isn't affected by heatsoak (cause I can also see that being a problem, when someone does a few WOT, then slaps on a new mod and don't see gain cause the car's already heatsoaked). I'm not taking sides on whether the intake works or not, but only pointing out that Mitch's test wasn't a controlled one.




Well, tbh, most of us are exactly that... we're just spreading dyno charts that others have provided, without source that those dyno runs were done properly.






Did they also go in-depth about how their Moutune intake claims on their site is BS then? lol
Wait, so you're saying your stage 3 mods with the DP and Exhaust actually has gains? Wasn't there a discussion thread about those mods not doing anything on a stock turbo?

Seems like there's controversy for every mod besides a stage 1 tune with the AP... (I assume we're all agreeing that the AP is good!)





Yes, those dyno claims by vendors are obviously biased to help sell their product. I would like to believe that there are gains, but the actual numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. You should definitely do the before and after tests if you do end up getting the intake. It's a much more practical for someone to dyno while they mod, rather than asking someone to dyno, take apart the mod, dyno, then put their mod back on.

LOL, no doubt.

Most of us that have been in the community from the beginning tend to advocate similar things because we've either done or witnessed the majority of the learning and data-gathering/evaluation. It's not that we don't want people buying parts, we just want them buying parts with a clear(er) understanding of what those parts will or will not do. Many of us have bought parts that we thought would do 'x' only to find out that maybe they didn't perform that way in real life...for better or for worse.

I intend on buying the cp-e intake some day (and have a pretty decent idea of how to do a controlled test) so I will gladly put up my data when that time comes.

 

[jeff]

Cold air is important and their is no doubt that between...

(1) my BIG MOUTH snorkel and
(2) my CP-E INTAKE (which not only has a double intake but also a closed airbox)

...I am getting plenty more cold air than the stock setup.

Aside from the childish behavior and unnecessary foul language, great discussion on this thread.

Stage 2 is awesome. Tomorrow I'll be loading my Stratified stage 2 tune in place of the Cobb OTS one. If it's anything like the difference between Strat and Cobb stage 1, I'm in for a nice improvement.

 

[koozy]

charge temps. if any intake mod upstream of the throttle body isn't noticeably dropping charge temps, it's failed at trying to achieve a main measured performance criteria.

 

[twolf]

So a CPE intake is $400... a Velossa Tech big mouth is $150. Let's go all out and say you're gaining 5 whp peak... 5hp/$550.. or 0.009 HP/$

Or you could spend $3600 on a DHM Quickspool kit and gain 100hp or so.. 100hp/$3600 0.028 HP/$

And you're talking about cost effectiveness?

 

[MPA]

It seems the first question someone asks is about the sound.

I had a MAP intake - because I wanted some of the sound, and while I liked it, it mostly whistled like mad (due to the bypass valve) even at normal speeds and drove me nuts. So I'm running a K&N w/ a RAM AIR brand intake hose that I got off ebay for $70.

Intake gains are minimal - 2hp isn't going to make any difference, and I knew that when buying the intake. but I would definitely be interested in seeing what a 3rd party finds. I would be willing to kick in $30 towards someone's dyno day in order to get the info

 

[jeff]

So a CPE intake is $400... a Velossa Tech big mouth is $150. Let's go all out and say you're gaining 5 whp peak... 5hp/$550.. or 0.009 HP/$

Or you could spend $3600 on a DHM Quickspool kit and gain 100hp or so.. 100hp/$3600 0.028 HP/$

And you're talking about cost effectiveness?

I didn't realize that I titled this thread " let's convince jeff why he is wrong ". I was sure that I had titled it something along the lines of "the merits of stage 2". It is amazing how I started this thread simply talking about why I like my set up.....and it is morphing into other people trying to tell me I am wrong or why there is a better way. I clearly said that I felt that stage two is the best price point for the car. I also said that I desired quick spool and low-end torque and that is why I enjoy the stock turbo and do not want to spend $3600 as you suggest.

The term "price point " means that a product has achieved maximum effectiveness with maximum efficiency and economy.

In our case, I would consider the first and best price point to be the set up that I am describing which can be had for about a thousand dollars. Surely there are other price points, but no doubt this is the first.

The greatest weakness of this forum is that everyone is so excited about big power lately that they forget the magic of these cars. I have not.

 

[twolf]

Well if you would like to get technical, this started out as you saying the following:

this is the ultimate cost-effective price point for our cars

the essential "stage 2" hardware - that is, a better FMIC and a tune to match - plus a few other things - a true CAI that doesn't heat soak, a BIG MOUTH intake, and a few braces to help keep the new power to the ground.

I wasn't trying to convince you your decisions were wrong. If you want a useless noisemaker, that's your prerogative. I have one. Do I think it adds power? No. Not only no, but hell no. It increases my personal happiness with the car because it sounds and looks good.

I gave my suggestions for a TRUE bang for the buck setup, as I don't consider spending $500 on an intake and air duct that give essentially no provable gains "bang for the buck". Here's the real truth. The Velossa isn't going to do much... or likely anything.. for power. Nor is an intake. Well within the margin of error for a "real" dyno or a virtual dyno.

Hell, my car even has a downpipe. Do I think it gives any gains? Maybe. Probably about as much as an intake, though. But again, it makes the car sound better and shoot flames. So it was worth it to me. But I'm not going to tell everyone to run out and get one because it's the "sweet spot".

But then you came out and said that everyone else was wrong... and your only source is testing done by the very manufacturer of the product in question. Of course they're going to post favorable results.

You should have just said "the best bang for the buck setup on this car is an intercooler and tune"

but then why would you do that? because everyone knows that.

The gist of this thread is you disagreeing with multiple people who know what they're talking about because you'd rather live in a fantasy land where an intake gives any power.

It's good eye candy, I'd love to have one.. but spending $400 on bling isn't my style.

 

[dyn085]

I didn't realize that I titled this thread " let's convince jeff why he is wrong ". I was sure that I had titled it something along the lines of "the merits of stage 2". It is amazing how I started this thread simply talking about why I like my set up.....and it is morphing into other people trying to tell me I am wrong or why there is a better way. I clearly said that I felt that stage two is the best price point for the car. I also said that I desired quick spool and low-end torque and that is why I enjoy the stock turbo and do not want to spend $3600 as you suggest.

The term "price point " means that a product has achieved maximum effectiveness with maximum efficiency and economy.

In our case, I would consider the first and best price point to be the set up that I am describing which can be had for about a thousand dollars. Surely there are other price points, but no doubt this is the first.

The greatest weakness of this forum is that everyone is so excited about big power lately that they forget the magic of these cars. I have not.

It's less about trying to prove you wrong and more about trying to correct your misinformation. You're claiming that parts make power that don't in real life and discounting parts that do. The theory is there, it just doesn't work out in any datalog. If you did a comparison you would see.

Nobody has forgotten about the cheap power and we recommend it all the time-FMIC, DP or CBE, and E30/E40 custom tune. It's that simple. Anything above and beyond that should be based mostly on looks (strictly engine-related) because at that point you're already working the turbo as much as you can with any sort of longevity. You can even get most all of that power without the hard parts from some tuners, you're just sacrificing reliability and longevity.

 

[twolf]

And furthermore, "stages" are bullshit marketing that is designed to sell parts... at least on the FiST.

Look at it. Stage 1 (Cobb) is a filter and tune. Forget the filter, run the tune and you'd still make the same power as a car with the filter.

Stage 2 (Cobb) is an IC, intake, charge pipes. Forget the intake and charge pipes, run the tune and you'd still make the same power as a car with the intake/pipes.

Stage 3 (Cobb) is a downpipe and catback. Forget the catback, run the stage 3 tune and you'd still make the same power as a car with the catback.

or forget all of these and get an e30 tune and make more power without ANY parts.

See a recurring theme?

 

[Hijinx]

The greatest weakness of this forum is that everyone is so excited about big power lately that they forget the magic of these cars. I have not.

I disagree. I think the greatest weakness of this forum is that everyone who has an uninformed opinion thinks they are correct. Newsflash: Opinions can be wrong.

 

[jeff]

I gave my suggestions for a TRUE bang for the buck setup, as I don't consider spending $500 on an intake and air duct that give essentially no provable gains "bang for the buck". Here's the real truth. The Velossa isn't going to do much... or likely anything.. for power. Nor is an intake. Well within the margin of error for a "real" dyno or a virtual dyno.

But then you came out and said that everyone else was wrong... and your only source is testing done by the very manufacturer of the product in question. Of course they're going to post favorable results.

The gist of this thread is you disagreeing with multiple people who know what they're talking about because you'd rather live in a fantasy land where an intake gives any power.

I really do appreciate your perspective. What actually happened is people said that I was wrong ("you drew first blood" - John Rambo), then I substantiated my claims with two dyno charts, and then several people said that Mitch said something he did not say, then someone posted virtual dynos to disprove me. That is what happened.

If someone posts a real dyno that says that the CP-E doesn't bring gains, I have no problem, but until then I will live in my fantasy land based on real dyno chart from a trusted company that NEVER reneged on their results as has been reported. The man only said that he dyno'd on a different day.

It's less about trying to prove you wrong and more about trying to correct your misinformation. You're claiming that parts make power that don't in real life and discounting parts that do. The theory is there, it just doesn't work out in any datalog. If you did a comparison you would see.

You are absolutely correct - I have not done a datalog to compare. But others have, and even if there is truly no HP gain, there are obvious torque gains no matter which side of this argument you are on, so in a sense there are gains to be had, the intake is not useless.

I do appreciate that people would attempt to correct misinformation. But I think the verdict is still out on this one. And while we're correcting each other, I bet it could be done in a more friendly manner instead of people putting each other down, cursing, etc. I don't care how many rep points or mods you have on your car or medals you have on your sig, talking down to people and insulting them for no reason is pretty sad, period.

I disagree. I think the greatest weakness of this forum is that everyone who has an uninformed opinion thinks they are correct. Newsflash: Opinions can be wrong.

I'm sure you have plenty of great info to share about how to properly modify a car. I'd suggest doing so in a way that makes friends, not enemies. I can learn a lot from you. Don't be so insecure, I'm sure your car is plenty fast and I'm sure you're a great guy. Remember we're just talking about cars here, nothing to fight about.

***************************

Yes, I am only at stage 2. I love my car. Yes, I spent $500 on a CP-E intake and a BIG MOUTH. I'm proud I did. I get great sound gains, great torque gains, and great bling. And maybe some HP too.

 

[JasonHaven]

Personally, I really like this discussion, it's geared (mostly) right into the mod range I'm looking for. So hopefully it continues to be productive

I'd love to see some of the tuners stop in and see what they have to say... For example, Adam suggests an intake and a MAP CBE as part of his tuning path, but not a DP. Whereas dyn085 suggests the intake is largely a waste, and to choose either a CBE or DP... Different paths, along the same line of middle ground mods.

 

[twolf]

Again, e30 tune, intercooler. Save the rest of your money and/or spend it on driver mod. I beat a stage 3 FiST at the drag strip, EASILY with only intake, exhaust, and e30. oh, and I had shitty 400tw tires.

 

[dyn085]

I just realized that this is exactly what it's like raising teenagers-no matter how hard you try to explain how things work and why they're wrong they will fight you to tooth and nail because they're convinced that they have the world figured out. You can try and guide them the best you can but ultimately you just have to hope that they'll understand why you were right once they're older and have more experience.

 

[Hijinx]

I'm sure you have plenty of great info to share about how to properly modify a car. I'd suggest doing so in a way that makes friends, not enemies. I can learn a lot from you. Don't be so insecure, I'm sure your car is plenty fast and I'm sure you're a great guy. Remember we're just talking about cars here, nothing to fight about.

I'll try to be as nice as possible with this reply... I'm not a nice person, nor am I a mean person. I simply am who I am. I am passionate about cars, so don't tell me it's nothing to fight about. You either like me, or you don't. Either way is fine with me, even if you want to be indifferent. There are people that know, understand, and accept me for me; those are only people's thoughts about me I care about and the only people I need. I don't have the energy or interest to play nice and have everyone like me; that's their business, not mine. Honestly, I'm going to forget about this conversation long before I go to sleep, because you're pretty much irrelevant to me.

 

[twolf]

^Can confirm, I disliked [MENTION=759]Hijinx[/MENTION] for quite a while. Then I came around. I think you'll find he knows what he's talking about... he's been around the block with these cars...

 

[rodmoe]

Guess we just need to agree to something or other I forget but lets keep it FUN and play nice

 

[jeff]

I'll try to be as nice as possible with this reply... I'm not a nice person, nor am I a mean person. I simply am who I am. I am passionate about cars, so don't tell me it's nothing to fight about. You either like me, or you don't. Either way is fine with me, even if you want to be indifferent. There are people that know, understand, and accept me for me; those are only people's thoughts about me I care about and the only people I need. I don't have the energy or interest to play nice and have everyone like me; that's their business, not mine. Honestly, I'm going to forget about this conversation long before I go to sleep, because you're pretty much irrelevant to me.

Bro, maybe the best thing that happened to you today is that you got all this out. Take some time and ask yourself why you're reacting the way you are. It could lead to some real self-awareness that might improve your relationships for the rest of your life. To tell me I'm irrelevant to you because I disagree about whether or not a piece of metal makes my car more powerful should be a red flag.

None of this is irrelevant to you, otherwise you would not have become so upset about it and cussed and me and put me down over a piece of metal.

Chill out, as I said I'm sure you're a great guy and maybe we'll have a beer together one day. Don't make it more personal that you already have. It's a simple discussion about cars - your continued insults are only hurting yourself.

Now....back to my topic...


As I said, tomorrow I'm loading my Stratified stage 2 tune. Anyone else have this one? I ran Cobb OTS stage 2 for the last 2 weeks so I could feel the difference once I load the new one. Then maybe a custom tune, we'll see how the car runs.

Side note, I've used one tank of gas since the FMIC/BIG MOUTH install and was surprised, I got about 15 more miles out of the tank and went WOT plenty. I'll continue to chart MPG after a few more tanks and post results.

 

[JasonHaven]

Again, e30 tune, intercooler. Save the rest of your money and/or spend it on driver mod. I beat a stage 3 FiST at the drag strip, EASILY with only intake, exhaust, and e30. oh, and I had shitty 400tw tires.

I don't know about others, but personally I'm sticking with 93, just because that's what's around, and I don't want to deal with the rest on my daily driver, if that makes sense.