The merits of stopping at a stage 2+ setup

[Hijinx]

Those runs were on a 2867r. If it were going to make a difference it'd be on the big turbo. The tq bump is because I went a little lean on that particular run, but even though the AFR never recovered its still the same power. Actually, the stockish set up made more, and had better fuel...

Anyway, just go ahead and feel free to interpret it as you choose. I've gotten a couple revisions since the install and it hasn't been anymore useful. The only reason I got it is because I will actually been needing it soon.

 

[Hijinx]

Hijinx, I thought I remember you having a modified stock intake in some fashion, can you remind us what your stock intake setup was/is?

Mountune silicone pipe, drop-in, hacked airbox. And of course, DHMs inlet. But I promise that if the box were closed, and it had a paper filter results would have been the same. Fact is that you can only suck so much air, and unless something is done internally (the head, pistons) to change that volume the stock intake is well-mated to the engine.

 

[Hijinx]

Like I said earlier though, these aren't suggestions. I really don't care what anyone does or doesn't do with the info, but it's there.

 

[JasonHaven]

Cool, thanks

I'm at just a drop in filter at the moment, considering CP-E since they're local and its a 'cold air' intake, but might as well hold off if there's literally no gains to be had. (though, my tuner does say an upgraded intake should be the next step, so what do I know... so much competing info)

 

[dyn085]

Like I said earlier though, these aren't suggestions. I really don't care what anyone does or doesn't do with the info, but it's there.

^ Exactly this.

I don't care whether people buy parts or not, I just don't agree with spreading misinformation that people might use to purchase a product and then ultimately be let down. Be aware of what a part actually does first, as verified/disproven by the community (and not by the manufacturer that would be making the profit), then make your decision based on that knowledge. I bought one intake because of its beauty and will probably ultimately buy one for the FiST as well, but I definitely won't be buying it based on the presumption of any actual gain because there isn't one.

 

[jeff]

I posted this and I believe the weather conditions in the vDyno thread a little while ago.

These are back to back runs, within 80 minutes or so.

^ Exactly this.

I don't care whether people buy parts or not, I just don't agree with spreading misinformation that people might use to purchase a product and then ultimately be let down. Be aware of what a part actually does first, as verified/disproven by the community (and not by the manufacturer that would be making the profit), then make your decision based on that knowledge. I bought one intake because of its beauty and will probably ultimately buy one for the FiST as well, but I definitely won't be buying it based on the presumption of any actual gain because there isn't one.

Cool thanks for the info.

I still see nowhere where the 3rd party reviewer invalidated his info. So it still stands in my opinion.

We are comparing a real dyno with a virtual dyno. I can't believe that the data from the latter is more true than the data from a real car on a real machine measuring real horsepower and torque.

But to each his own. I love my intake.

 

[wireless]

Those runs, to me, actually look like the CP-E does have a benefit over the stock airbox throughout the majority of the curve? Although it's quite a small benefit lol.

I'd say it's pretty close to on-par for the stock airbox (but much better looking/sounding...) however, to say there is no benefit.. meh.

 

[dyn085]

Those runs, to me, actually look like the CP-E does have a benefit over the stock airbox throughout the majority of the curve? Although it's quite a small benefit lol.

I'd say it's pretty close to on-par for the stock airbox (but much better looking/sounding...) however, to say there is no benefit.. meh.

Hijinx has a big turbo, do you seriously think you're going to see anything on a turbo that flows only slightly more than half of that?

Jeff says he has the intake, all he has to do is do a pull with it installed and then revert back to the OEM intake and do another pull on the same tune...I won't hold my breath on seeing it, though.

 

[AzNightmare]

Actually, there has only been one third-party review of that intake that showed a gain, and ultimately the tuner of that car revealed that the reason it showed a gain was because the dyno was done incorrectly and that the engine temperature differences were what caused the gain, not the intake. Intake modifications have been well-documented on this site to do nothing. I own the cp-e intake for my FoST and the same holds true in that community.

It's a great-looking part but that's all it or any other intake is on the OEM turbo-eye candy.

I had my doubts as well that no intake could give off such a drastic power increase... but where did you find the source of the tuner revealing he dyno-ed the car incorrectly?

 

[PhoenixM3]

Me? I want to save my pennies for a DHM turbo kit and remain as stock looking as possible. There is a pesky RS3 buzzing around and I'd like to spank him with the FiST and not the Shelby.

 

[jeff]

Hijinx has a big turbo, do you seriously think you're going to see anything on a turbo that flows only slightly more than half of that?

Jeff says he has the intake, all he has to do is do a pull with it installed and then revert back to the OEM intake and do another pull on the same tune...I won't hold my breath on seeing it, though.

Hey man go drink a beer or find some way to relax....your tone is pretty demeaning in your posts here, no need for that, I have done nothing to you. I will not be taking my car apart to prove a point.

I am willing to believe you if you just give me some real evidence of your claims. A V dyno that says something that contradicts two real dynos is not enough for me.



Now....back to topic! Stage 2 rocks!!!

 

[jeff]

I had my doubts as well that no intake could give off such a drastic power increase... but where did you find the source of the tuner revealing he dyno-ed the car incorrectly?

I am interested in this as well.

 

[dyn085]

I had my doubts as well that no intake could give off such a drastic power increase... but where did you find the source of the tuner revealing he dyno-ed the car incorrectly?

There was a Facebook discussion on the main ST page. The tuner was actually Mountune and they didn't do the actual dyno, Randy just chimed in about how the datalogg of the 'after' file showed a consider difference in ECT. I think it's also here on the forum somewhere but I would have to search it to find out.

Hey man go drink a beer or find some way to relax....your tone is pretty demeaning in your posts here, no need for that, I have done nothing to you. I will not be taking my car apart to prove a point.

I am willing to believe you if you just give me some real evidence of your claims. A V dyno that says something that contradicts two real dynos is not enough for me.



Now....back to topic! Stage 2 rocks!!!

I have no tone; it was a simple question of logic along with the fact that you could literally prove us wrong if you were actually correct. And while I understand your concern with V-Dyno, anyone that understand how a dyno works understands why V-Dyno works-it's very basic math based on something measured (distance over time). There's a reason that all of the pro tuners that do remote tuning use it.

But yes, stage 2 is fun, I'm sure. After all, I'm stage 3 minus an intake, lol.

 

[Hijinx]

Hey man go drink a beer or find some way to relax....your tone is pretty demeaning in your posts here, no need for that, I have done nothing to you. I will not be taking my car apart to prove a point.

I am willing to believe you if you just give me some real evidence of your claims. A V dyno that says something that contradicts two real dynos is not enough for me.



Now....back to topic! Stage 2 rocks!!!

The vDyno is a comparison on my car. It's consistent because my inputs are consistent. It's a real-world, on the street scenario. It is separate from the numbers on a real dyno, because it is a comparison tool. The comparison tool showed a negligible difference. You need to understand that even a dyno is a simple comparison... Myself nor Dyn compare my vDyno to the real dyno because we're not that ignorant. They are two very different cars in two very different times and places. It should be taken as standalone evidence; examined on its own merit.

FWIW, your tone is misguidedly condescending. If you're afraid to prove it to yourself that's fine, but don't try to discount the data when it's VERY real data of the car performing on the street because it doesn't agree with your beliefs.

Also, Mitch admitted in the very post you submitted as "proof" that the dynos were done on different days, which likely means different conditions.

Man up, and go find out for yourself instead of armchair quarterbacking. I swear everyone thinks they're a fucking professional and have PHDs because they look shit up on the internet but won't do a fucking test for themselves... /rant

 

[jeff]

There was a Facebook discussion on the main ST page. The tuner was actually Mountune and they didn't do the actual dyno, Randy just chimed in about how the datalogg of the 'after' file showed a consider difference in ECT. I think it's also here on the forum somewhere but I would have to search it to find out.



I have no tone; it was a simple question of logic along with the fact that you could literally prove us wrong if you were actually correct. And while I understand your concern with V-Dyno, anyone that understand how a dyno works understands why V-Dyno works-it's very basic math based on something measured (distance over time). There's a reason that all of the pro tuners that do remote tuning use it.

But yes, stage 2 is fun, I'm sure. After all, I'm stage 3 minus an intake, lol.

Focus ST or Fiesta ST page?

Again I'm basing my info from two real dynos. I have no need to prove you wrong because I have more and better data.

The vDyno is a comparison on my car. It's consistent because my inputs are consistent. It's a real-world, on the street scenario. It is separate from the numbers on a real dyno, because it is a comparison tool. The comparison tool showed a negligible difference. You need to understand that even a dyno is a simple comparison... Myself nor Dyn compare my vDyno to the real dyno because we're not that ignorant. They are two very different cars in two very different times and places. It should be taken as standalone evidence; examined on its own merit.

FWIW, your tone is misguidedly condescending. If you're afraid to prove it to yourself that's fine, but don't try to discount the data when it's VERY real data of the car performing on the street because it doesn't agree with your beliefs.

Also, Mitch admitted in the very post you submitted as "proof" that the dynos were done on different days, which likely means different conditions.

Man up, and go find out for yourself instead of armchair quarterbacking. I swear everyone thinks they're a fucking professional and have PHDs because they look shit up on the internet but won't do a fucking test for themselves... /rant

Just because he admitted the pulls were done on different days does not mean there was such a drastic difference that would affect it that much. It's a stretch to take his comment about testing on two different days and use it to say that the results are false.

You man up bro, you're the one who has lost control of himself here and is acting like a child.

 

[JasonHaven]

Hey man go drink a beer or find some way to relax....your tone is pretty demeaning in your posts here, no need for that, I have done nothing to you. I will not be taking my car apart to prove a point.

I am willing to believe you if you just give me some real evidence of your claims. A V dyno that says something that contradicts two real dynos is not enough for me.



Now....back to topic! Stage 2 rocks!!!

To be fair, both of the dynos you refer to earlier are performed by CP-E, themselves. While I have no reason not to trust them, especially after meeting them, there's still a conflict of interest when the company selling the product is doing the testing that shows gains.

If I get the CP-E intake, I'll consider doing a dyno run pre/after with the same tune on a 3rd party dyno.

But, don't hold your breath, that'd be a financial investment on my part that I'm not in a hurry to make haha

 

[AzNightmare]

Just because he admitted the pulls were done on different days does not mean there was such a drastic difference that would affect it that much. It's a stretch to take his comment about testing on two different days and use it to say that the results are false.

Mitch said his dyno with the CPe Intake was done the next morning. Mornings are usually cool in temperature. That's not to say the previous test wasn't done in cool temperatures as well, but it does prove Mitch didn't do a "controlled test". An accurate dyno test needs to be done back to back, with a decent amount of time in between so that that the 2nd pull isn't affected by heatsoak (cause I can also see that being a problem, when someone does a few WOT, then slaps on a new mod and don't see gain cause the car's already heatsoaked). I'm not taking sides on whether the intake works or not, but only pointing out that Mitch's test wasn't a controlled one.

Man up, and go find out for yourself instead of armchair quarterbacking. I swear everyone thinks they're a fucking professional and have PHDs because they look shit up on the internet but won't do a fucking test for themselves... /rant

Well, tbh, most of us are exactly that... we're just spreading dyno charts that others have provided, without source that those dyno runs were done properly.

There was a Facebook discussion on the main ST page. The tuner was actually Mountune and they didn't do the actual dyno, Randy just chimed in about how the datalogg of the 'after' file showed a consider difference in ECT. I think it's also here on the forum somewhere but I would have to search it to find out.

But yes, stage 2 is fun, I'm sure. After all, I'm stage 3 minus an intake, lol.

Did they also go in-depth about how their Moutune intake claims on their site is BS then? lol
Wait, so you're saying your stage 3 mods with the DP and Exhaust actually has gains? Wasn't there a discussion thread about those mods not doing anything on a stock turbo?

Seems like there's controversy for every mod besides a stage 1 tune with the AP... (I assume we're all agreeing that the AP is good!)

To be fair, both of the dynos you refer to earlier are performed by CP-E, themselves. While I have no reason not to trust them, especially after meeting them, there's still a conflict of interest when the company selling the product is doing the testing that shows gains.

If I get the CP-E intake, I'll consider doing a dyno run pre/after with the same tune on a 3rd party dyno.

But, don't hold your breath, that'd be a financial investment on my part that I'm not in a hurry to make haha

Yes, those dyno claims by vendors are obviously biased to help sell their product. I would like to believe that there are gains, but the actual numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. You should definitely do the before and after tests if you do end up getting the intake. It's a much more practical for someone to dyno while they mod, rather than asking someone to dyno, take apart the mod, dyno, then put their mod back on.

 

[wireless]

Hijinx has a big turbo, do you seriously think you're going to see anything on a turbo that flows only slightly more than half of that?

Jeff says he has the intake, all he has to do is do a pull with it installed and then revert back to the OEM intake and do another pull on the same tune...I won't hold my breath on seeing it, though.

I'm aware that he has a big turbo, yet my reply still rings true that there was a slight curve difference (a tad more power/torque favoring the CP-E intake) throughout the curve, however, the peak was in favor of the stock airbox.

Am I saying CP-E is better, etc? Nope... just point out what the curve that he posted says.

Yes, those dyno claims by vendors are obviously biased to help sell their product. I would like to believe that there are gains, but the actual numbers should be taken with a grain of salt. You should definitely do the before and after tests if you do end up getting the intake. It's a much more practical for someone to dyno while they mod, rather than asking someone to dyno, take apart the mod, dyno, then put their mod back on.

Exactly. Do baseline dyno & then do your follow up runs so you have the same dyno as a resource.

 

[M0LTEN]

To much focus (no pun intended) on HP/TQ number improvements. to me an easier way to see if a particular intake is helping or not is the intake temps.
Are you getting colder air or not?
My researdh led me to just modifiying my stock intake and I could see some improvements in my intake temps which should help with HP/TQ numbers.
I monitor my temps constantly and don't think it can get much better unless I install a Big mouth intake or drive without a hood.
of course i still need to install a bigger FMIC but thats another post.

 

[Hijinx]

I'm aware that he has a big turbo, yet my reply still rings true that there was a slight curve difference (a tad more power/torque favoring the CP-E intake) throughout the curve, however, the peak was in favor of the stock airbox.

Am I saying CP-E is better, etc? Nope... just point out what the curve that he posted says.



Exactly. Do baseline dyno & then do your follow up runs so you have the same dyno as a resource.

Look at the fuel. It's not because of the intake... I have the wx data. Stock box was 69*, cp-e was 62*. DA (not that is matters much) was 393ft and 244ft, runs were ended at 5:24pm and 6:59pm, respectively. The reason you see a little more torque is because of the variables. So, think about this: even though it was colder on the cp-e I take runs, it only made a small, negligible difference. And it sure didn't affect spool. I believe I did two runs per intake; I took the best ones and displayed them.

All of this in another thread here on the forum. So it's not like anything is hidden.