REVIEW: Pierce Motorsports 2pt lower chassis brace + rear torsion bar = A+ mods

[jeff]

If you can't understand why using a different tune on a different day discredits a dyno sheet then there's really no hope in explaining anything further. If a part cannot show a gain on the same tune on the same day at similar times then it is not producing power. If you have to change the tune to see the gain then you're seeing gains of the tune, plain and simple.

Delta Analysis 101

As I continue to say, that one dyno sheet is not the only reason I trust the results of the intake. I realize that they were done on different days. There are many other trusted variables and opinions involved. You are hanging your hat on on person's v-dyno, and both the objective and subjective nature of that test itself lends to the incredulity of that entire test and the integrity of its results and tester. I am hanging my proverbial hat on several other things. But we have discussed this to the point of absurdity so I am finished here. As I said in the other thread, if you and your buddy wish to enjoy the gains of no intake while you're above 6,200 rpms as his v-dyno shows, great. Me, I'll enjoy the gains I get under 6,200 with my intake. Different fueling or not. Either way, this is no longer worth discussing.

What is worth discussing is that you discounted my impressions of the Pierce bar and brace but your opinion seems uninformed - (1) have you even driven a car with the braces before and after? If not, you have no opinion to give at all, but you gave one anyway...(2) have you not noticed the overwhelming support that others have given the bars on this thread? Apparently not.

 

[Dsquared46]

You can do the front bar pretty easily on jack stands. Just unbolt one side at a time, attach the bar and start the bolt, leave it loose. Then go to the other side and repeat. You can grab the wheels to move the control arm into alignment for the bolt to thread. Pretty easy, took me longer to get it on jack stands than to do the job.

How are you guys getting the bolts loose for the 2pt bar? I'm up on jack stands and the breaker bar isn't working. Even my electric impact wrench is not budging these bolts. Should be an easy install. Should've taken 15 mins. Didn't want to have it done by a shop. Help!!!

 

[MPA]

I used a cheapo $20 harbor freight impact gun to take mine off. Took about 2 seconds or so for it to start loosening.

I drove with my 2 pt and the torsion brace today. I assume most of what I felt was from the torsion brace. Doing a back road drive tomorrow, so it should be nice to see the changes.

No change in wheelspin though, as I expected..

 

[antarctica24]

If you can't understand why using a different tune on a different day discredits a dyno sheet then there's really no hope in explaining anything further. If a part cannot show a gain on the same tune on the same day at similar times then it is not producing power. If you have to change the tune to see the gain then you're seeing gains of the tune, plain and simple.

Delta Analysis 101

I think there seems to be a lot of confusion here about what is a power adder and what is not. because I have not talked it to death, I will chime in. Bolt on's like FMIC, Exhaust, CAI, are not power adders. They are devices that help relieve restriction on a current design. The Fiesta and Focus ST are both severely restricted power wise from the factory but the Fiesta more so, because the Focus is the bigger brother and Ford didn't want the Fiesta walking on the Focus. Which it can do, and has done.

You can install a part, and change a tune on two different days and get different results and the increase be different because of the part not the tune. Tuning is a two fold process. process 1, is not forcing the computer to do anything other than letting it know that something can operate outside of its original limitation. process 2 is actually telling something in the computer to forcefully do something to create more power. These to are not the same and result in two completely different results.

For example. Let's say you install a CAI and the CAI is allowing more air come into the motor that what the computer or better yet MAF was set to read and react to. You make a tune change to change the range of what the MAF will react to not how it will react, but just letting the computer know. Then the computer can respond to more air. the same can be said for a higher flowing fuel injector. if the computer doesn't know it has an injector that can flow more, it will just assume, the stock injector is in place. That doesn't mean you have to change the tune to make more power, your simply telling the computer that there is piece in play that will do more so it is ok to make changes on the fly. As I said in another post, this computer can handle up to 5lbs of boost and correct for that pressure on its own. Beyond that you have to make modifications.

I could install a CAI, make a tune change and show no difference if I didn't change something that said to the MAF what the possible maximum frequency range is after the install of the part. on the next day, I make that change and suddenly I have more power.

Putting the bolt ons on the car, is not making power by means of installing parts that make power. Putting bolt ons on the car are making power because they are unrestricting the breathing of the engine.

 

[DaveG99]

Ill tell you how, The chassis on this car is very flexible. it moves a lot. You can see it when you put it on lift and try to open a back door. You CANT. I went with the 6 point and everything about the car handling characteristics changed for the better in lateral acceleration, off the line acceleration, and hard cornering. Anything you can do to any car to stiffen the chassis, to help prevent flexing on hard accelerations, and hard cornering makes for a more compliant car.

There is hundreds of thousands of pages of research available in your library or internet on improving handing of a car how to's. And no its not a weight thing. Weight actually makes it worse. Have you ever noticed a road course car build? The suspension is all Aluminum with Aluminum or Magnesium chassis cradle. This would the include the uprights, and knuckles.

I was under the impression that our chassis was a great one and the car handles very well stock because of it.

 

[antarctica24]

I was under the impression that our chassis was a great one and the car handles very well stock because of it.

Dave,

That is a common misconception. Don't interpret good suspension for good chassis. They are not the same thing as you know. What happens is you get in this car or any car, you drive it and get used to it. Then you start to accommodate the car, in other words you change your driving habits to match the characteristics of the car. it doesn't make the car better, it means you adjusted to the car. Now you start to upgrade the suspension aka coilovers, sway bars, end links and the such. You have improved the suspension and handling characteristics of the car, but you have not done anything to stiffen the chassis. That is what the strut tower brace, under carriage brace, rear torsion brace, and left right connection bar do. They reduce the movement of the chassis. That in conjunction with the upgraded suspension, makes for a more responsive car and more compliant chassis. AKA it does what you ask and what you expect it to do under maneuvers.

The big metal crossbeam in the back is made of steel but it flexes under load. All steel does that, it is by design. if it didn't flex, it would break, or break something else. What the torsion addition does is add some more stiffness to the bar so that it still flexes but just not as much.

When I put a car on a lift. If I can open all 4 doors with no rubbing, then you have a very stiff chassis. If I have any rubbing or any issues opening any doors, then then chassis is no longer square on the lift and thus weak or not stiff.

The 6 point ties the front sides and rear all together at the front, and it makes a big difference in the characteristics of the car and the way the body responds.

No I don't work for Pierce Motorsports. However, I would say the same about purchasing a like product from any company that did what their piece does.

 

[dyn085]

I think there seems to be a lot of confusion here about what is a power adder and what is not. because I have not talked it to death, I will chime in. Bolt on's like FMIC, Exhaust, CAI, are not power adders. They are devices that help relieve restriction on a current design. The Fiesta and Focus ST are both severely restricted power wise from the factory but the Fiesta more so, because the Focus is the bigger brother and Ford didn't want the Fiesta walking on the Focus. Which it can do, and has done.

You can install a part, and change a tune on two different days and get different results and the increase be different because of the part not the tune. Tuning is a two fold process. process 1, is not forcing the computer to do anything other than letting it know that something can operate outside of its original limitation. process 2 is actually telling something in the computer to forcefully do something to create more power. These to are not the same and result in two completely different results.

For example. Let's say you install a CAI and the CAI is allowing more air come into the motor that what the computer or better yet MAF was set to read and react to. You make a tune change to change the range of what the MAF will react to not how it will react, but just letting the computer know. Then the computer can respond to more air. the same can be said for a higher flowing fuel injector. if the computer doesn't know it has an injector that can flow more, it will just assume, the stock injector is in place. That doesn't mean you have to change the tune to make more power, your simply telling the computer that there is piece in play that will do more so it is ok to make changes on the fly. As I said in another post, this computer can handle up to 5lbs of boost and correct for that pressure on its own. Beyond that you have to make modifications.

I could install a CAI, make a tune change and show no difference if I didn't change something that said to the MAF what the possible maximum frequency range is after the install of the part. on the next day, I make that change and suddenly I have more power.

Putting the bolt ons on the car, is not making power by means of installing parts that make power. Putting bolt ons on the car are making power because they are unrestricting the breathing of the engine.

I don't even know where to start so here are some related bullet-comments:

-The tune is the original limiting factor.
-Why do you think this is a MAF-tuned system with all of the MAP sensors?
-A computer does not know limitations, only the data contained within. This computer absolutely isn't going to handle 5 lbs of boost and correct for it on its own, at least not without throwing a fault code.
-Again, the MAF is nearly irrelevant on this platform. If anything, if it was a MAF-tuned car then throwing an intake on absolutely would increase power if there was an increase in flow-and that's guaranteed.
-Un-restrict the engine all you want with as many parts as you can find and you'll see that you're making the same power. I've already shown you this in a datalog. I assumed you understood the datalog because you had no questions.

In summary: Welcome to load-based tuning.

 

[antarctica24]

I don't even know where to start so here are some related bullet-comments:

-The tune is the original limiting factor.
-Why do you think this is a MAF-tuned system with all of the MAP sensors?
-A computer does not know limitations, only the data contained within. This computer absolutely isn't going to handle 5 lbs of boost and correct for it on its own, at least not without throwing a fault code.
-Again, the MAF is nearly irrelevant on this platform. If anything, if it was a MAF-tuned car then throwing an intake on absolutely would increase power if there was an increase in flow-and that's guaranteed.
-Un-restrict the engine all you want with as many parts as you can find and you'll see that you're making the same power. I've already shown you this in a datalog. I assumed you understood the datalog because you had no questions.

In summary: Welcome to load-based tuning.

Ok, so that we are clear and agree, and go on the record

You are saying that what the car is doing and what I am feeling is a "placebo" effect. That the Exhaust, FMIC, with larger charge pipes, by unrestricting the air flow on the motor do not cause the computer to make changes resulting in an increase in power without a tune? You are saying that the installation of the Big mouth and CP-E with these other parts made no impact to power without a tune based on your extensive data logging?
So that we are perfectly clear and there is no misunderstanding, having over 26 years of IT background, you are stating that the tables in the stock computer and all of the sensors reading air and fuel and atmosphere are not capable of adding or pulling timing out of the car based on changing conditions. Don't try and comeback to recant. because when you add an exhaust and FMIC you are in fact changing the conditions. By the way, being wrong before I even get there, the MAF not MAP is why you can live in NC, and dyno your car, and live in Colorado and Dyno your car, both being stock and both having completely different results, making my point that the computer is very capable of adjusting to the conditions. The air is thinner in Colorado and thicker in NC. If the car sees more air or less air it is going to make an adjustment, But well go with your data lgging to be fair. I would not want to let 40 years for automotive technology get in the way of our test.

For the record, do you know why car companies started using the MAF instead of MAP? Because it gives a better reading than just atmosphere taking into account the actual weight of the air based on humidity and altitude. The MAP is used as a backup. But for the sake of this response, Ill stop there.

I have no choice but to stop with the conversation, until I can put this thing on a real dyno.
So we can agree on a baseline, the norm seems to be 183/212 from Ford based on the numbers posted by individuals here on the forum. And your saying one more time for confirmation, that adding the FMIC, Charge pipes, and Exhaust, not even the downpipe, as you call them bolt on's will make no difference to the 183/212 number without a tune based on your data logging.

For the record, I have never anywhere on this forum ever said that 250/250 was possible without a bigger turbo and certainly not without a tune and for that matter not possible on the stock turbo at least from the HP side. I said I really felt based on my extensive experience building high horse power cars, that somewhere between 250/250 and 300/300 was probably the safe upper limit for this chassis. Obviously not saying it cant be done, saying not safely on this chassis, as it was not built for or crash tested with that kind of power and torque. And the norm according to this forum with just bolt ons no bigger turbo and a tune seems to be around 212/280 give or take 5%.

Consider the conversation paused, until I can get this car on a dyno. If I am wrong, I will post it right here with the dyno graph. You and I don't know each other personally, but you have my word, today 4/15/2016 at 7:45AM EST, that I have not and will not plug the accessport into this car until I have run this car on a real dyno.

 

[2Cool]

How did a suspension discussion get derailed into arguments over tuning and bolt on parts?

And the chassis on this little car is very stiff, tossing a jack under any corner you can lift three wheels off the floor if you want... and still easily open any door. If you can't open a door you have the lift resting on the side skirt and are pushing it up into the door.

The two point works great for the front suspension. Mine was easy enough to do using a breaker bar to loosen the bolts.

The rear torsion bar has my car very neutral feeling, with a tendency to get a bit of four wheel drift on hard corners rather than under or over steer. I really see no reason to do anything further, at least on stock springs.

 

[dyn085]

Ok, so that we are clear and agree, and go on the record

You are saying that what the car is doing and what I am feeling is a "placebo" effect. That the Exhaust, FMIC, with larger charge pipes, by unrestricting the air flow on the motor do not cause the computer to make changes resulting in an increase in power without a tune? You are saying that the installation of the Big mouth and CP-E with these other parts made no impact to power without a tune based on your extensive data logging?
So that we are perfectly clear and there is no misunderstanding, having over 26 years of IT background, you are stating that the tables in the stock computer and all of the sensors reading air and fuel and atmosphere are not capable of adding or pulling timing out of the car based on changing conditions. Don't try and comeback to recant. because when you add an exhaust and FMIC you are in fact changing the conditions. By the way, being wrong before I even get there, the MAF not MAP is why you can live in NC, and dyno your car, and live in Colorado and Dyno your car, both being stock and both having completely different results, making my point that the computer is very capable of adjusting to the conditions. The air is thinner in Colorado and thicker in NC. If the car sees more air or less air it is going to make an adjustment, But well go with your data lgging to be fair. I would not want to let 40 years for automotive technology get in the way of our test.

For the record, do you know why car companies started using the MAF instead of MAP? Because it gives a better reading than just atmosphere taking into account the actual weight of the air based on humidity and altitude. The MAP is used as a backup. But for the sake of this response, Ill stop there.

I have no choice but to stop with the conversation, until I can put this thing on a real dyno.
So we can agree on a baseline, the norm seems to be 183/212 from Ford based on the numbers posted by individuals here on the forum. And your saying one more time for confirmation, that adding the FMIC, Charge pipes, and Exhaust, not even the downpipe, as you call them bolt on's will make no difference to the 183/212 number without a tune based on your data logging.

For the record, I have never anywhere on this forum ever said that 250/250 was possible without a bigger turbo and certainly not without a tune and for that matter not possible on the stock turbo at least from the HP side. I said I really felt based on my extensive experience building high horse power cars, that somewhere between 250/250 and 300/300 was probably the safe upper limit for this chassis. Obviously not saying it cant be done, saying not safely on this chassis, as it was not built for or crash tested with that kind of power and torque. And the norm according to this forum with just bolt ons no bigger turbo and a tune seems to be around 212/280 give or take 5%.

Consider the conversation paused, until I can get this car on a dyno. If I am wrong, I will post it right here with the dyno graph. You and I don't know each other personally, but you have my word, today 4/15/2016 at 7:45AM EST, that I have not and will not plug the accessport into this car until I have run this car on a real dyno.

The fact that you think this car is running a MAF-based tune makes everything you said irrelevant. I've literally posted a datalog in your other thread and it shows you exactly what happens when you add parts to the stock tune. Did you not even look at it? If you had then everything you're saying you wouldn't be saying...

The car is very versatile and adjusts to environmental conditions all the time so there's nothing to recant. What I'm saying is that when you hit your load limit on your load and MAP based tune, you're not going to make an ounce of additional power. This is the exact reason that a car in NC can and does make the same power as a car in Denver. There is no magical extra 5psi of boost to compensate for and the inverse is actually true-you're going to make the same power with even less boost than before.

Ignorance may be bliss but it definitely shouldn't be the foundation of your side of the discussion. Wipe MAF tuning from your memory because you may as well be telling me about how awesome you think our carburetor works. Our MAF sensor infers ambient temp and probably works in the filter-pressure calculation.

 

[MKVIIST]

Guys can we please get back on topic? There's a lot of good debates and information that would be better suited in other threads.

 

[OffTheWall503]

Dammit, I've ran out of popcorn.

 

[antarctica24]

The fact that you think this car is running a MAF-based tune makes everything you said irrelevant. I've literally posted a datalog in your other thread and it shows you exactly what happens when you add parts to the stock tune. Did you not even look at it? If you had then everything you're saying you wouldn't be saying...

The car is very versatile and adjusts to environmental conditions all the time so there's nothing to recant. What I'm saying is that when you hit your load limit on your load and MAP based tune, you're not going to make an ounce of additional power. This is the exact reason that a car in NC can and does make the same power as a car in Denver. There is no magical extra 5psi of boost to compensate for and the inverse is actually true-you're going to make the same power with even less boost than before.

Ignorance may be bliss but it definitely shouldn't be the foundation of your side of the discussion. Wipe MAF tuning from your memory because you may as well be telling me about how awesome you think our carburetor works. Our MAF sensor infers ambient temp and probably works in the filter-pressure calculation.

Dude, where are you getting your information. This car is absolutely using the MAF (MASS AIRFLOW SENSOR). It reads almost enough air to calculate fuel up to 14.7 PSI on its own. The MAP sensor is a backup, not a primary. Air temperature means nothing. MAF doesn't read air temp. It reads air density. Much more accurate than reading air temp. The MAP sensor is useless at best. it is a 5 volt sensor and if it was reading only 1 bar, it would be somewhat accurate, but with it being a 2 bar, it has 1/2 the resolution that the 1 bar has and if you go to 3 bar it has 1/3 the resolution. Have you ever tuned a car? You know there are a lot of fuel injection management classes that community colleges offer and there are even some 3rd party companies that offer classes. You might want to consider taking some. Do you think Ford, GM and for that matter all car companies tune their cars for where their going to be located? Who told you the MAF was measuring Air temp?

Maybe the problem here is the Accessport that I have never looked at only allows you to make modifications based on what the MAP sensor says. Is that how you came to that conclusion? You could unplug the MAP sensor and the car will throw a code, but it will still run, and when it gets to the maximum amount of air measured in frequencies through the MAF, it will start to just dump fuel and your A/F will go super rich. If you disconnect the MAF, the car will run like shit. MAP sensors were the chosen method for measuring boost back in the 70's and 80's. it is just a backup now when their is more air moving through the MAF than what it can read. Ford and GM both are working on MAF sensors with enough resolution to read 2 atmospheres worth of air because the MAP sensor does not have adequate resolution.

Im thinking you really should have to have some kind of proof of your expertise before being allows to just chime in on this form. You are making it confusing for everyone who doesn't know and wants to learn. You can datalog to you run out of memory, but if you don't understand how the system works, the information is useless.

You need drop this, like I suggested and I will post a Dyno graph when I can find a dyno.

 

[jeff]

I will post a Dyno graph when I can find a dyno.

That's a great idea, I am excited to see your results. I suggest a new thread for that info, I am sure it will be interesting and useful to others. I don't know that anyone has done what you're planning to do yet. Excited to see....

How did a suspension discussion get derailed into arguments over tuning and bolt on parts?

And the chassis on this little car is very stiff, tossing a jack under any corner you can lift three wheels off the floor if you want... and still easily open any door. If you can't open a door you have the lift resting on the side skirt and are pushing it up into the door.

The two point works great for the front suspension. Mine was easy enough to do using a breaker bar to loosen the bolts.

The rear torsion bar has my car very neutral feeling, with a tendency to get a bit of four wheel drift on hard corners rather than under or over steer. I really see no reason to do anything further, at least on stock springs.

I am not sure if dyn085 has ever even driven a car with these mods (the braces) to back his comments, he is under fire for that, and now he has continued an argument about tuning etc. from elsewhere here on this thread to perhaps lend credulity to his bashing of my review. Actually I am not even sure if he has a Fiesta ST....I thought I read somewhere that he has a Focus ST...maybe he is luck enough to have both.

I agree with your reviews of these bars. Glad others are enjoying them as I am.

 

[dyn085]

You even responded to this pic with your own in your other thread-

I definitely own both.

You might consider revisiting post #30 & 32 before accusing me of dragging your other thread into this one. Just saying.

 

[dyn085]

Dammit, I've ran out of popcorn.

First bag is on me-

 

[jeff]

You even responded to this pic with your own in your other thread-

I definitely own both.

You might consider revisiting post #30 & 32 before accusing me of dragging your other thread into this one. Just saying.

Very good, I'd forgotten that, I don't live in the Internet too much.

Props to you for two great cars! I'm sure you shared this elsewhere but which is your favorite?

And you never responded though I've asked three times now, have you ever driven a FiST with the braces I reviewed on this thread???

 

[Waterfan]

This car, after doing the brakes, the first modification I made was the BC Coilovers, and Pierce 6 point and struttower brace. Why? This car under hard acceleration and hard cornering, was very flexible. You could feel it. I installed the coilovers, drove it around for a couple of days, and while there was some improvement, After the 6 point and strut tower brace all of the flexing was gone. It was like driving a completely different car. Anyone that tells you otherwise is FOS.

The Chassis on this car, is so weak. As I said in another post, putting it up on a lift causes the back doors to not even want to open. What does that say? I would say the pierce 6 point was the best upgrade I could have made to the car regarding improving the handling characteristics of the car. PERIOD.

[MENTION=929]antarctica24[/MENTION]

Thank you for sharing your experience. When you say "6-point was the best handling upgrade", does this mean you rank it higher than your BC coilovers for overall impact? I'm looking for my first suspension upgrade (just did 16" wheels and tires), I find the FiST to already be completely capable as a Daily Driver (canyon runs only), and I am struggling to choose between coilovers and chassis bracing first. (Or maybe coilovers or chassis bracing only.)

Any additional feedback you may have would be appreciated.

 

[dyn085]

Very good, I'd forgotten that, I don't live in the Internet too much.

Props to you for two great cars! I'm sure you shared this elsewhere but which is your favorite?

And you never responded though I've asked three times now, have you ever driven a FiST with the braces I reviewed on this thread???

Both cars are great, they're just great in different ways. I like each one better than the other in different aspects because they both do different things better. Going much further than that does nothing but piss-off both communities because both communities seem to have a need to feel dominant over the other and that's just not realistic.

As for whether I've driven one with the brace installed, what happens when I say I have? Nothing I say can qualify any statements about it and nothing I say will be objective. I can say it spins just like my un-braced car, but unless our mods were exactly comparable then how do I draw an accurate conclusion? The absolute only way that I could post anything objective would be to buy the bar and do datalogs with/without it because we both know that you're not going to gather data to share with the community. Other traction bar owners in this thread have already stated exactly what I have already said and you couldn't bother with acknowledging those posts, but the second I say anything you blow it out into a huge ordeal and then try to blame me for starting it.

Data > Theory > Opinion. That's the order of precedence and you never seem to be able to be any further left than the farthest right. Do some research into fwd traction bars. Even Piercemotorsports doesn't advertise them as a 'traction bar', and you would think that that would be pretty high on the sales-pitch.

 

[antarctica24]

[MENTION=929]antarctica24[/MENTION]

Thank you for sharing your experience. When you say "6-point was the best handling upgrade", does this mean you rank it higher than your BC coilovers for overall impact? I'm looking for my first suspension upgrade (just did 16" wheels and tires), I find the FiST to already be completely capable as a Daily Driver (canyon runs only), and I am struggling to choose between coilovers and chassis bracing first. (Or maybe coilovers or chassis bracing only.)

Any additional feedback you may have would be appreciated.

I so don't want to start something because of the varying opinions out there but yes. I opted to replace the struts with the coilovers in the thought that i could soften up the ride on concrete by selecting the softest setting on the coilovers. I had just been in a bad accident when I bought the car and on the concrete the stock suspension was killing my back hitting on the concrete.

I think the factory struts are really nice and in my humble opinion think you would be really pleased with the 6 point. It really tightens up the chassis and you can feel it in hard cornering.you can also feel the difference in hard acceleration. I think it's a better upgrade than the sway bars which would be the last thing I would change.

The stock suspension is actually really nice as you can tell not only from driving it but from all the positive reviews. Do some cloverleaf a at about 60 before you install and after and you will see what I am talking about. The car will feel more compliant and you will be able to turn it in harder and the chassis will not give as much but obviously don't do that until you get used to it.

Coilovers are really nice upgrades if you are planning any type of road course racing. You can put scales under each tire and balance the car out and you will learn how to change the rebounding of the shocks for every course you run because each one will be different.

One other tidbit the question you asked is about two different aspects of the car one is suspension aka coilovers and one is chassis 6 point.

As for other comments about the 2 way being sufficient, I'm sure it is to those who bought it. The 6 point ties the left front and right together and if we added a roll cage we could stiffen the chassis up even more which would be preferable.

Again please understand this is an opinion based on my experience and in know way is meant to step on any one else's opinion.

Sometimes it just requires a leap of faith. It is really not a lot of money for the return on investment.

Good luck and if you get it please let me know what you think