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REVIEW: Pierce Motorsports 2pt lower chassis brace + rear torsion bar = A+ mods
- Thread starter jeff
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Thread Starter
#26
I have a new custom tune, vDyno numbers are around 227/294 and ECU is still learning. Tons of torque but with the 2 bars (and RMM, stock tires) I have 95% traction in 2nd gear. 1st, a bit less. A bit of torque steer but the fun kind IMHO.
Of course, part of my lack of wheel spin/torque steer is the tune, I arranged it that way. But even before the custom tune when I was on Cobb OTS stage 2 the car kept about 95% traction.
***
And I was in the same place as you CivicAssassin, I became annoyed that I couldn't floor it. I had to ease on the throttle. What fun is that? All that new power and I can't go WOT until 3rd gear.
Get these bars, they will resolve almost all of that. Car is much more fun - power and traction to match it. Coming out of a corner I can floor it in 2nd, I'm at 60 in a few seconds.
Of course, part of my lack of wheel spin/torque steer is the tune, I arranged it that way. But even before the custom tune when I was on Cobb OTS stage 2 the car kept about 95% traction.
***
And I was in the same place as you CivicAssassin, I became annoyed that I couldn't floor it. I had to ease on the throttle. What fun is that? All that new power and I can't go WOT until 3rd gear.
Get these bars, they will resolve almost all of that. Car is much more fun - power and traction to match it. Coming out of a corner I can floor it in 2nd, I'm at 60 in a few seconds.
Thread Starter
#28
It does increase traction, several people on this thread have attested to that, and I do not think it does so magically.
Several terms are being used here to describe the gains from these products....wheel spin, wheel hop, traction....
Let me say it in layman's terms: Before I installed the braces, I floored it, I smelled burnt tire and acceleration was choppy and dramatic as the car tried to connect to the road. After, no smell, acceleration much smoother and I'm up to speed quite nicely.
Several terms are being used here to describe the gains from these products....wheel spin, wheel hop, traction....
Let me say it in layman's terms: Before I installed the braces, I floored it, I smelled burnt tire and acceleration was choppy and dramatic as the car tried to connect to the road. After, no smell, acceleration much smoother and I'm up to speed quite nicely.
I guess I can say it in layman's terms as well-we have a lot of members that parrot manufacturer statements to absolve their cognitive dissonance over spending their money on a part that they hope to see gains on that either doesn't do what they think or does nothing.
Traction is directly related to wheelspin. Basically, if you have more power than your tires have traction then you're going to break loose. A traction bar on a FWD is not going to change that-only stickier tires, less power, or a better alignment will.
Wheel hop is the rapid acceleration and deceleration of tires from brief moments of traction offsetting brief moments of tire slip, and that's caused by rapid changes in toe that are caused by those same forces. A traction bar is going to fix or improve that by bracing the lower control arm, by eliminating those rapid toe changes.
Tl;dr-If you're having wheelspin issues then get a better alignment or better tires, if you're having wheel hop then get the bar.
Traction is directly related to wheelspin. Basically, if you have more power than your tires have traction then you're going to break loose. A traction bar on a FWD is not going to change that-only stickier tires, less power, or a better alignment will.
Wheel hop is the rapid acceleration and deceleration of tires from brief moments of traction offsetting brief moments of tire slip, and that's caused by rapid changes in toe that are caused by those same forces. A traction bar is going to fix or improve that by bracing the lower control arm, by eliminating those rapid toe changes.
Tl;dr-If you're having wheelspin issues then get a better alignment or better tires, if you're having wheel hop then get the bar.
Thread Starter
#30
You said the same thing on my "Stage 2" thread; I'm not sure why you appear on my threads repeatedly and say that my reviews or impressions of products are unrealistic. Read what I wrote about the affect these bars had on my car; I am not lying.
And if it makes you feel better, money is not an object here for me. I buy all my mods cash, I have no credit debit. I do this for fun because it is my passion. There is no "cognitive dissonance". I simply want to help other people because (as others have stated in this thread and elsewhere) some of us are having traction issues after adding power mods, and I have found a great solution to this problem.
And if it makes you feel better, money is not an object here for me. I buy all my mods cash, I have no credit debit. I do this for fun because it is my passion. There is no "cognitive dissonance". I simply want to help other people because (as others have stated in this thread and elsewhere) some of us are having traction issues after adding power mods, and I have found a great solution to this problem.
Of course I said the same thing in your stage 2 thread.
Quick story: A long time ago, in a relatively new automotive community, there was a well-respected vendor that had a rear motor mount available for sale. Part of the sales pitch was that it eliminated false-knock that was experienced by other vendors' parts. When asked about comparable logs against competitor parts there was either no response or simply claims of having dealt with it with lots of customers while custom tuning.
The threat of false-knock gripped the community and whenever a question arose as to the best RMM the answer was always parroted with someone claiming to get this particular manufacturers part in order to avoid false-knock issues. Whenever the members recommending 'x' part (based on false-knock avoidance) were asked to submit any form of datalogging proof of false-knock from alternative manufacturers, all they could ever say was that they only heard it from the particular manufacturer. A few of them outright admitted that they had never seen false-knock issues but believed it simply because of whom was citing the issue...who just happened to have a vested interest in selling parts.
So I finally created a thread on how to evaluate false-knock to determine if it exists along with a short troubleshooting procedure to isolate the issue if someone was actually experiencing it. Needless to say, the constantly-perpetuated false-knock accusations dwindled to virtually nothing pretty rapidly and it's seldom ever discussed anymore. I worked with a handful of people via pm and isolated their issues to either mechanical practices (the work performed) or the tune on the vehicle (which always deflected to 'bad gas', lol), but never the RMM. No other manufacturers RMM ever trended towards actually having an issue. http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/4823-False-Knock-or-nah?
This is pretty well-covered in most FWD communities.
Quick story: A long time ago, in a relatively new automotive community, there was a well-respected vendor that had a rear motor mount available for sale. Part of the sales pitch was that it eliminated false-knock that was experienced by other vendors' parts. When asked about comparable logs against competitor parts there was either no response or simply claims of having dealt with it with lots of customers while custom tuning.
The threat of false-knock gripped the community and whenever a question arose as to the best RMM the answer was always parroted with someone claiming to get this particular manufacturers part in order to avoid false-knock issues. Whenever the members recommending 'x' part (based on false-knock avoidance) were asked to submit any form of datalogging proof of false-knock from alternative manufacturers, all they could ever say was that they only heard it from the particular manufacturer. A few of them outright admitted that they had never seen false-knock issues but believed it simply because of whom was citing the issue...who just happened to have a vested interest in selling parts.
So I finally created a thread on how to evaluate false-knock to determine if it exists along with a short troubleshooting procedure to isolate the issue if someone was actually experiencing it. Needless to say, the constantly-perpetuated false-knock accusations dwindled to virtually nothing pretty rapidly and it's seldom ever discussed anymore. I worked with a handful of people via pm and isolated their issues to either mechanical practices (the work performed) or the tune on the vehicle (which always deflected to 'bad gas', lol), but never the RMM. No other manufacturers RMM ever trended towards actually having an issue. http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/threads/4823-False-Knock-or-nah?
This is pretty well-covered in most FWD communities.
Thread Starter
#32
That is a great story and it sounds like your thread and research helped uncover the truth in that situation. I appreciate your past experience, that is certainly helpful because yes you are correct there are many companies making false claims about their products, and many people agreeing because of placebo effect or bandwagon effect. But that is not the case here.
Concerning the bars and my review, did you read my review at all? If I wanted to make false claims about the product for whatever reason I would have told everyone that these bars make awesome handling improvements and that the car now "handles on rails" or "like a Focus RS" or some crap like that. That is not what I said. What I said is that there was some 'meh' handling improvements but that the real improvements come in traction. I have been around the block and done a good bit of mods on many cars over many years. My claims on these bars are realistic and modest, and supported by many others who say the same things - not the manufacturer only.
Concerning my stage 2 thread and our intake discussion there, I continue to simply point to the evidence. Based on one V-dyno you discount my belief that my CP-E intake brings gains (and that V-dyno even shows that it does bring gains under 6,200 rpms). In contrast, I base my belief in the intake on the following: (1) CP-E data via real dyno runs (2) independent reviewers data via real dyno runs (3) Stratified tuning chiming in and agreeing with me (4) Tune + agreeing with me during my tuning consultation (5) Mitch aka CP-E agreeing with me (or rather I with him) and providing a good bit of experienced and well-documented proof of his claims. #s 2,3,4 above are not manufacturers and do not sell intakes and have nothing to gain by telling me that I need an intake.
And back to the bars - have you even driven a car with them installed, before and after? To discount them without doing that is really speaking out of turn.
But again all that aside I do appreciate your desire for justice. Just aim before you pull the trigger.
Concerning the bars and my review, did you read my review at all? If I wanted to make false claims about the product for whatever reason I would have told everyone that these bars make awesome handling improvements and that the car now "handles on rails" or "like a Focus RS" or some crap like that. That is not what I said. What I said is that there was some 'meh' handling improvements but that the real improvements come in traction. I have been around the block and done a good bit of mods on many cars over many years. My claims on these bars are realistic and modest, and supported by many others who say the same things - not the manufacturer only.
Concerning my stage 2 thread and our intake discussion there, I continue to simply point to the evidence. Based on one V-dyno you discount my belief that my CP-E intake brings gains (and that V-dyno even shows that it does bring gains under 6,200 rpms). In contrast, I base my belief in the intake on the following: (1) CP-E data via real dyno runs (2) independent reviewers data via real dyno runs (3) Stratified tuning chiming in and agreeing with me (4) Tune + agreeing with me during my tuning consultation (5) Mitch aka CP-E agreeing with me (or rather I with him) and providing a good bit of experienced and well-documented proof of his claims. #s 2,3,4 above are not manufacturers and do not sell intakes and have nothing to gain by telling me that I need an intake.
And back to the bars - have you even driven a car with them installed, before and after? To discount them without doing that is really speaking out of turn.
But again all that aside I do appreciate your desire for justice. Just aim before you pull the trigger.
Oh look, more intake discussion. It doesn't happen very often, but every now and then someone pushes a product so hard that you wonder what kind of kickback they are getting for it.
1) Already been discredited due to the test notes on the dyno sheet.
2) The one independent user you alluded to had his runs discredited by a tuner.
3) Stratified gave you the underlying theory, which I've fully agreed with. In-practice is a different story.
4) May as well buy colder plugs and an exhaust too.
5) Back to number 1.
As a bonus we can add (6) you having the ability to do same-day, same-tune testing with it but adamant refusal. If I told you that I had a part that was super-awesome, pointed to a bunch of discredited information or theory as my reasoning, and then you asked me to prove it and I adamantly refused...what would you be inclined to believe?
Sure, you make a great salesman, but at the end of the day if you aren't willing to contribute actual data to the community then you are just parroting and giving an assumed guess at best. We have had many people fall on the sword for other intakes, like the Injen, whom later came back to state that they were wrong. You can use whatever reason you want for not choosing to substantiate your claims with your own testing, but that's no different than the others that want everyone else to do the testing for them.
1) Already been discredited due to the test notes on the dyno sheet.
2) The one independent user you alluded to had his runs discredited by a tuner.
3) Stratified gave you the underlying theory, which I've fully agreed with. In-practice is a different story.
4) May as well buy colder plugs and an exhaust too.
5) Back to number 1.
As a bonus we can add (6) you having the ability to do same-day, same-tune testing with it but adamant refusal. If I told you that I had a part that was super-awesome, pointed to a bunch of discredited information or theory as my reasoning, and then you asked me to prove it and I adamantly refused...what would you be inclined to believe?
Sure, you make a great salesman, but at the end of the day if you aren't willing to contribute actual data to the community then you are just parroting and giving an assumed guess at best. We have had many people fall on the sword for other intakes, like the Injen, whom later came back to state that they were wrong. You can use whatever reason you want for not choosing to substantiate your claims with your own testing, but that's no different than the others that want everyone else to do the testing for them.
Thread Starter
#34
I would hardly describe any of that is discredited. If you go back and read the comments that Mitch made, he gives overwhelming evidence for gains, whether or not the Dyno runs were done on a different day.
I really don't see why you are trying so hard to discount both the intake and now the torsion and traction bars. At this point I believe it is simply that it is hard for some people to accept that people like me are happy with their cars and modification choices. The overwhelming tone of many on this forum is that unless you have a big turbo you have not yet seen the light.
And this is no reflection on you, but many of the other comments made seem to be personal. People have visited my user page and build thread and attacked me for my religion and age when that has nothing to do with my car. Maybe they saw pictures of my nice house and my gorgeous wife and my other builds and saw that someone was actually happy with their life and their car and decided to go on the attack. With the visits to my profile from some of the people who argued so strongly against me on the stage 2 thread, that's my suspicion.
Yes you are correct, I do have the ability to pull off my intake and do a virtual Dyno run with and without. I simply have no desire to do that, especially not to prove something that has already been well proven. I have better things to do with my time.
Anyhow, none of this has anything to do with this thread and my review of the bars. As I and others have said, they make a very noticeable difference with traction and I am very happy to have them on my car.
I really don't see why you are trying so hard to discount both the intake and now the torsion and traction bars. At this point I believe it is simply that it is hard for some people to accept that people like me are happy with their cars and modification choices. The overwhelming tone of many on this forum is that unless you have a big turbo you have not yet seen the light.
And this is no reflection on you, but many of the other comments made seem to be personal. People have visited my user page and build thread and attacked me for my religion and age when that has nothing to do with my car. Maybe they saw pictures of my nice house and my gorgeous wife and my other builds and saw that someone was actually happy with their life and their car and decided to go on the attack. With the visits to my profile from some of the people who argued so strongly against me on the stage 2 thread, that's my suspicion.
Yes you are correct, I do have the ability to pull off my intake and do a virtual Dyno run with and without. I simply have no desire to do that, especially not to prove something that has already been well proven. I have better things to do with my time.
Anyhow, none of this has anything to do with this thread and my review of the bars. As I and others have said, they make a very noticeable difference with traction and I am very happy to have them on my car.
If you can't understand why using a different tune on a different day discredits a dyno sheet then there's really no hope in explaining anything further. If a part cannot show a gain on the same tune on the same day at similar times then it is not producing power. If you have to change the tune to see the gain then you're seeing gains of the tune, plain and simple.
Delta Analysis 101
Delta Analysis 101
Ill tell you how, The chassis on this car is very flexible. it moves a lot. You can see it when you put it on lift and try to open a back door. You CANT. I went with the 6 point and everything about the car handling characteristics changed for the better in lateral acceleration, off the line acceleration, and hard cornering. Anything you can do to any car to stiffen the chassis, to help prevent flexing on hard accelerations, and hard cornering makes for a more compliant car.
There is hundreds of thousands of pages of research available in your library or internet on improving handing of a car how to's. And no its not a weight thing. Weight actually makes it worse. Have you ever noticed a road course car build? The suspension is all Aluminum with Aluminum or Magnesium chassis cradle. This would the include the uprights, and knuckles.
There is hundreds of thousands of pages of research available in your library or internet on improving handing of a car how to's. And no its not a weight thing. Weight actually makes it worse. Have you ever noticed a road course car build? The suspension is all Aluminum with Aluminum or Magnesium chassis cradle. This would the include the uprights, and knuckles.
I bought these and installed about a week ago and thought I'd share a few thoughts. I am doing so because as we all think of "first and necessary mods", I believe that after all the parts I've put on my car, these are among the most helpful and necessary. If you do ANY power mods to your car, these bars (particularly the front one) are a MUST.
PRICE - ****
I got both on sale for around $220 shipped. All of their stuff is on sale right now at their website.
QUALITY - *****
Excellent
SERVICE - ***
These guys are pretty great, they have accurately advertised products and quick communication. Shipping took only 3 days, I was surprised. I do wish they had better install guides; I didn't need them but it would be nice and probably bring more sales if they spent some time doing a write-up or video for these products; neither are available, I was just directed to "look at the installs on the forums". I asked for torque specs and was told to "use the factory specs". The PM guys could spend a bit more time simply noting the torque they used and providing it for people along with simple install instructions - for new modders this would be helpful.
INSTALL - ****
I did the rear bar in 5 minutes on ramps; the front bar took 30 minutes with a lift, that includes lifting the car. Both are simple and require nothing special if you have basic tools. I was unwilling to do the front bar with weight resting on the wheels so I enlisted a friends' help and we used his shop lift. But I've heard it can be done on ramps.
RESULTS - *****
Again this is a "must do" mod in my opinion. Why? Well, the rear bar is decent enough, the car feels tighter and the seats definitely hug you a bit more during hard cornering. I installed the rear torsion bar first and drove a few days without the front one to experience the difference. Then I added the front bar. While it does tighten cornering a bit, the reason I am such a fan of this product is the reduced wheel spin. I was at stage 1 when I installed the bar. Before the bar, wheel spin was becoming a real annoyance in 1st and 2nd gears and I found myself not flooring it as much because I couldn't go WOT without major torque steer and wheel spin. In the same week I installed the front bar, I also installed my FMIC and BIG MOUTH and went stage 2 OTS tune. Of course we all know there is a good bit more power/torque at stage 2. However, even with more torque the wheel spin/torque steer is greatly reduced. I mean greatly. I was pleasantly surprised at the power my car had with the new hardware, but even more surprised that I could use it. First gear still has some spinning and the car pulls to the right a bit....but it moves along and grabs the road much better. Second gear is a delight; without the bar at stage 1 I was spinning from 3-6k. Now with the bar at stage 2 there is almost no wheel spin, the car just moves. You fight the wheel enough to make it fun, but the car still stays planted and you can enjoy all that this engine has to give. I've found myself "taking the long way home" more than usual - these inexpensive parts have supplemented my power mods in wonderful ways, the car is super fun.
So in conclusion - I bought these bars with handling in mind...while they do help with handling, by far the greatest benefit is the reduction of wheel spin. I am loving this car at stage 2 and these bars are IMHO a must have if you're doing power mods.
2PT LOWER CHASSIS BRACE INSTALLED:
REAR TORSION BAR INSTALLED:
PRICE - ****
I got both on sale for around $220 shipped. All of their stuff is on sale right now at their website.
QUALITY - *****
Excellent
SERVICE - ***
These guys are pretty great, they have accurately advertised products and quick communication. Shipping took only 3 days, I was surprised. I do wish they had better install guides; I didn't need them but it would be nice and probably bring more sales if they spent some time doing a write-up or video for these products; neither are available, I was just directed to "look at the installs on the forums". I asked for torque specs and was told to "use the factory specs". The PM guys could spend a bit more time simply noting the torque they used and providing it for people along with simple install instructions - for new modders this would be helpful.
INSTALL - ****
I did the rear bar in 5 minutes on ramps; the front bar took 30 minutes with a lift, that includes lifting the car. Both are simple and require nothing special if you have basic tools. I was unwilling to do the front bar with weight resting on the wheels so I enlisted a friends' help and we used his shop lift. But I've heard it can be done on ramps.
RESULTS - *****
Again this is a "must do" mod in my opinion. Why? Well, the rear bar is decent enough, the car feels tighter and the seats definitely hug you a bit more during hard cornering. I installed the rear torsion bar first and drove a few days without the front one to experience the difference. Then I added the front bar. While it does tighten cornering a bit, the reason I am such a fan of this product is the reduced wheel spin. I was at stage 1 when I installed the bar. Before the bar, wheel spin was becoming a real annoyance in 1st and 2nd gears and I found myself not flooring it as much because I couldn't go WOT without major torque steer and wheel spin. In the same week I installed the front bar, I also installed my FMIC and BIG MOUTH and went stage 2 OTS tune. Of course we all know there is a good bit more power/torque at stage 2. However, even with more torque the wheel spin/torque steer is greatly reduced. I mean greatly. I was pleasantly surprised at the power my car had with the new hardware, but even more surprised that I could use it. First gear still has some spinning and the car pulls to the right a bit....but it moves along and grabs the road much better. Second gear is a delight; without the bar at stage 1 I was spinning from 3-6k. Now with the bar at stage 2 there is almost no wheel spin, the car just moves. You fight the wheel enough to make it fun, but the car still stays planted and you can enjoy all that this engine has to give. I've found myself "taking the long way home" more than usual - these inexpensive parts have supplemented my power mods in wonderful ways, the car is super fun.
So in conclusion - I bought these bars with handling in mind...while they do help with handling, by far the greatest benefit is the reduction of wheel spin. I am loving this car at stage 2 and these bars are IMHO a must have if you're doing power mods.
2PT LOWER CHASSIS BRACE INSTALLED:
REAR TORSION BAR INSTALLED:
If I may, before doing any modifications on my previous high HP car, I had built a chrome moly roll cage, and did all of the connection points, under the car. The difference in the way the car handled afterwards was profound.
This car, after doing the brakes, the first modification I made was the BC Coilovers, and Pierce 6 point and struttower brace. Why? This car under hard acceleration and hard cornering, was very flexible. You could feel it. I installed the coilovers, drove it around for a couple of days, and while there was some improvement, After the 6 point and strut tower brace all of the flexing was gone. It was like driving a completely different car. Anyone that tells you otherwise is FOS.
The Chassis on this car, is so weak. As I said in another post, putting it up on a lift causes the back doors to not even want to open. What does that say? I would say the pierce 6 point was the best upgrade I could have made to the car regarding improving the handling characteristics of the car. PERIOD.
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