Well, I've only taken mine on a short drive but I stopped and tried to replicate the original problem and it worked fine. No more blasting cold air through the dash vents. I didn't drive it long enough to really tell about the correct temp but it seemed to be fine. I guess I'll know better during the next cold snap. I'd recommend getting it repaired. Definitely a huge improvement.
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Climate Control Heater Issue
- Thread starter siberiankiss
- Start date
Sad to here the software didn't fix the problem but I can't say I'm supersized I wasn't convinced this was a simple logic issue. I had planed on getting the update today but after seeing the post this morning that it didn't fix the problem I decided to hold off and do some investigating myself. Bare with me this is going to be a long post. After some investigating, which Ill go through in a moment, I have come up with a theory. My thought is that the problem is not with hardware or software but is a design flaw with the system itself. Don't let them tare your dash apart as changing parts probably wont fix it. I'm sure the update makes the control slightly better since any control system has room for improvement so it likely wont hurt to get the update anyway. As I said in an earlier post I believe the issue is with the location of the interior temperature sensor. Back on page three there is a diagram that shows it is in the dash behind the lcd this is where the design flaw in the system is. I noted that the lcd gets quite hot and as a result so does its surrounding area. I'm talking about the plastic area in the center of the dash. How hot, well today I took my temperature gun out and found that after running for a few minutes (15-20) the lcd can get up to about 110F+ yikes. This makes for bad news as the surrounding dash can get as hot as 93F in some areas and an average temperature of about 85F. My thought is that this is the cause of our issue the temperature sensor is always telling our control unit that the car is hot, very hot. So it always blows cold no matter how you set it unless you put it to HI. To make sense of this I'll explain how I think this system works and how this design flaw fits in.
I want to start by saying I have not conferred with any ford engineers and everything I am writing is based on my own observations, opinions, and knowledge. That being said I am a Mechanical Engineer and I have some experience with control systems and basic design knowledge. As always realize this is opinion and not necessarily correct. It is my best guess and understanding of the system.
From what I gather our climate control system takes the interior temperature from the sensor and then determines what temperature air (hot or cold) to put out of the vent to maintain the set point chosen with the knob. It does this in both manual and auto as long as the setting is between 60 and 85. Auto simply takes over fan speed and direction control. HI and LO seem to override the sensor and just put out max hot or cold regardless of what the sensor is picking up. Which is why most of us get cold air until we put it to HI. This is where the design flaw comes into play. As I stated the average temperature of the plastic area around the dash gets to about 85F and as high as 93F thanks to the lcd. From the above description of how the system functions its clear that even at a setting of 85F the system would be correct in blasting you with cold air if the sensor is reading 93F. Which is why I have said I don't believe this is a hardware or soft ware error. During testing I found that when the dash was hot above 85F it always blew cold in manual with the temperature of the output air decreasing as I lowered the set point from 85 to 60. When I left the AC on at 60 the temperature of the dash and lcd came down to about 78F. Despite the interior temperature being at 60F in auto the fan was still blowing hard and cold trying to get the car even colder probably because the sensor was still getting 78F not 60F. I then observed that the output air would clime in temperature with it getting warm then hot as I passed the dash temperature of 78F; the dash temperature quickly rose back to 85F once the ac was off. When doing the same test in auto mode I observed the fan speed slowing as I approached the temperature of the dash and then rising again as I got closer to 85 and slowing again and becoming cold once the dash temperature was above 85F. For me that behavior confirms that the sensor is simply giving our controller a false reading thanks to the lcd. Its not necessarily doing anything wrong. From the control systems perspective the car is hot so it needs to take appropriate action to cool it off to the desired temperature even at a setting of 85F. So if its 60F outside and you try the heat it will still blow cold because by the time the engine is warm enough the lcd has already warmed the sensor to a temperature hotter than 85F. So there is no way to get heat with out setting it to HI. I assume moving the temperature sensor to an area not effected by the lcd would resolve this issue. I have pictures of the testing but I'm too lazy to put them up on an image hosting site.
I haven't looked into the possibility of truing off the lcd yet, but I plan to try and shut it off completely and then retest. If the dash isn't being heated by the lcd and the problem is resolved it will clearly show this as the cause. If not then its back to the drawing board I'll keep you guys updated.
I want to start by saying I have not conferred with any ford engineers and everything I am writing is based on my own observations, opinions, and knowledge. That being said I am a Mechanical Engineer and I have some experience with control systems and basic design knowledge. As always realize this is opinion and not necessarily correct. It is my best guess and understanding of the system.
From what I gather our climate control system takes the interior temperature from the sensor and then determines what temperature air (hot or cold) to put out of the vent to maintain the set point chosen with the knob. It does this in both manual and auto as long as the setting is between 60 and 85. Auto simply takes over fan speed and direction control. HI and LO seem to override the sensor and just put out max hot or cold regardless of what the sensor is picking up. Which is why most of us get cold air until we put it to HI. This is where the design flaw comes into play. As I stated the average temperature of the plastic area around the dash gets to about 85F and as high as 93F thanks to the lcd. From the above description of how the system functions its clear that even at a setting of 85F the system would be correct in blasting you with cold air if the sensor is reading 93F. Which is why I have said I don't believe this is a hardware or soft ware error. During testing I found that when the dash was hot above 85F it always blew cold in manual with the temperature of the output air decreasing as I lowered the set point from 85 to 60. When I left the AC on at 60 the temperature of the dash and lcd came down to about 78F. Despite the interior temperature being at 60F in auto the fan was still blowing hard and cold trying to get the car even colder probably because the sensor was still getting 78F not 60F. I then observed that the output air would clime in temperature with it getting warm then hot as I passed the dash temperature of 78F; the dash temperature quickly rose back to 85F once the ac was off. When doing the same test in auto mode I observed the fan speed slowing as I approached the temperature of the dash and then rising again as I got closer to 85 and slowing again and becoming cold once the dash temperature was above 85F. For me that behavior confirms that the sensor is simply giving our controller a false reading thanks to the lcd. Its not necessarily doing anything wrong. From the control systems perspective the car is hot so it needs to take appropriate action to cool it off to the desired temperature even at a setting of 85F. So if its 60F outside and you try the heat it will still blow cold because by the time the engine is warm enough the lcd has already warmed the sensor to a temperature hotter than 85F. So there is no way to get heat with out setting it to HI. I assume moving the temperature sensor to an area not effected by the lcd would resolve this issue. I have pictures of the testing but I'm too lazy to put them up on an image hosting site.
I haven't looked into the possibility of truing off the lcd yet, but I plan to try and shut it off completely and then retest. If the dash isn't being heated by the lcd and the problem is resolved it will clearly show this as the cause. If not then its back to the drawing board I'll keep you guys updated.
That's a sound theory, but I don't believe any of this system has changed for 2016 models from a hardware perspective. If your theory is correct, it should have been a problem in each prior model year that had the auto system as well. Plenty of people driving 14s and 15s claim their climate control works totally fine.
I have an appointment tomorrow to get the flash done and I'll report back on how it goes.
Edit:
Ive done some checking and there are multiple sensors for the system and the one you're referring to is only one of them. There seems to be another one with part number 19c734b that sits in the vent system. I've also found other diagrams that imply the part you're referring to isn't directly behind the LCD but is on the evaporator housing in that general area.
I have an appointment tomorrow to get the flash done and I'll report back on how it goes.
Edit:
Ive done some checking and there are multiple sensors for the system and the one you're referring to is only one of them. There seems to be another one with part number 19c734b that sits in the vent system. I've also found other diagrams that imply the part you're referring to isn't directly behind the LCD but is on the evaporator housing in that general area.
I'm sure there are others in the system many sensors are need to have the system work. I'm working off the assumption that this one in particular is responsible for sensing the current interior temperature. I'm also not assuming its directly behind the lcd. Sorry for the misunderstanding, from what I was looking at I am assuming it is in the general area and has the potential to be effected by the lcd's temperature. While much of the hardware is the same the sync 3 system is new and may have required this sensor to be repositioned or perhaps the lcd just runs hotter getting the under dash area much warmer than previous models. Can some one with a 14-15 that has the 6.5in touch screen and a temperature gun report lcd and dash temps after running for a while. Again this is based on my opinion and observations I'm not claiming any of it as fact and am very open to any other opinion on the matter. I'm just reporting my observations and trying to understand the problem. I encourage everyone to go get the update and have arranged to do so myself this Friday. On a side note can you post a link to the schematics you have found so we can be on the same page? I've been doing some searching but it doesn't help if we aren't looking at the same thing.
I went back out and did some more tests this time with the lcd off. Unfortunately off isn't actually off the lcd goes dark but the touch screen stays active but it does mean a drop in temperature. The front of the lcd went from 110F+ to about 82F+. The surrounding area also came down in temperature the plastic had an average temp of about 72F with a high of 75F. Also since the lcd wasn't making as much heat I saw temps as low as 60F-65F at the dash with the AC on for awhile. But it would quickly jump back to 72F-75F once the ac was off. These external temperatures of the dash don't reflect the internal temp of the dash but they give an idea. I'd say the inside of the dash is likely the same as what is seen at the front of the lcd or a few degrees more or less. What I saw this time that I didn't before was that the fan would actually turn off and stay off in auto when set between 82F-83F. It would turn back on slightly (the same as manual fan 1-2) when moved to 84F-85F with slightly warm air. These temperatures seem to line up properly if the sensor is reading 82F-83F from the lcd. The appropriate response from the controller would be to shut off since the desired temp was achieved and stable. Then setting only 1 to 2 degrees higher would only require minimal effort from the system to normalize hence the slightly warm air and low fan speed. Before with the lcd on the temperatures in the dash seemed to swing past 85F-93F very quickly never allowing the system to shut off completely and after a few seconds even a setting of 85F would net full power cold air. This behavior seems to support my suspensions but as stated above they are just my observations and opinions and I in no way claim them to be 100% correct you may have differing experiences with your own car. If some one could try and duplicate my findings that would be great. The easiest way to verify if you don't have a temp gun would be to turn off the lcd let the temp normalize then pop it in auto and see if it shuts off around 81F-83F. You may see it shutting off at different temps depending on how your lcd runs since none are exactly the same. Maybe this is something ford should look into if the software doesn't solve the issue 100%. Although, if they are already aware of the in dash temperature they may be able to reprogram the system to account for the heat from the lcd meaning the software could do the trick fingers crossed. I'm looking forward to seeing how the update goes.
I went back out and did some more tests this time with the lcd off. Unfortunately off isn't actually off the lcd goes dark but the touch screen stays active but it does mean a drop in temperature. The front of the lcd went from 110F+ to about 82F+. The surrounding area also came down in temperature the plastic had an average temp of about 72F with a high of 75F. Also since the lcd wasn't making as much heat I saw temps as low as 60F-65F at the dash with the AC on for awhile. But it would quickly jump back to 72F-75F once the ac was off. These external temperatures of the dash don't reflect the internal temp of the dash but they give an idea. I'd say the inside of the dash is likely the same as what is seen at the front of the lcd or a few degrees more or less. What I saw this time that I didn't before was that the fan would actually turn off and stay off in auto when set between 82F-83F. It would turn back on slightly (the same as manual fan 1-2) when moved to 84F-85F with slightly warm air. These temperatures seem to line up properly if the sensor is reading 82F-83F from the lcd. The appropriate response from the controller would be to shut off since the desired temp was achieved and stable. Then setting only 1 to 2 degrees higher would only require minimal effort from the system to normalize hence the slightly warm air and low fan speed. Before with the lcd on the temperatures in the dash seemed to swing past 85F-93F very quickly never allowing the system to shut off completely and after a few seconds even a setting of 85F would net full power cold air. This behavior seems to support my suspensions but as stated above they are just my observations and opinions and I in no way claim them to be 100% correct you may have differing experiences with your own car. If some one could try and duplicate my findings that would be great. The easiest way to verify if you don't have a temp gun would be to turn off the lcd let the temp normalize then pop it in auto and see if it shuts off around 81F-83F. You may see it shutting off at different temps depending on how your lcd runs since none are exactly the same. Maybe this is something ford should look into if the software doesn't solve the issue 100%. Although, if they are already aware of the in dash temperature they may be able to reprogram the system to account for the heat from the lcd meaning the software could do the trick fingers crossed. I'm looking forward to seeing how the update goes.
It may not be the sensors location as I said its just my observation and understanding of how the system works. Like I said in my first post the problem is the same in both manual and auto. I believe the system works the same in either manual or auto with the only difference being that auto takes control of fan speed and direction. I believe both manual and auto use the sensor in conjunction with the desired set point to determine what comes out of the vent. I also stated that HI and LO seem to override the sensor and simply put out max heat or max cold regardless of what the sensor is reading this also happens in both auto and manual.
Had the update done today and was able to really test it out on the way home. Heat worked on HI and it was cold on 60, and having it set on 74 on my ride home is the first time I've ever actually been comfortable with the temperature in that car. So far it seems to be working far better than it previously was, but I'll give it a few more days to say it's fully fixed.
After some more time driving the car, and having a friend with a 15 look at it, I believe there is only one issue left. The temp sensor seems to be off by about 4 or 5 degrees. Once you adjust for that, it works fine. Not sure if they will be able to calibrate the sensor or if this is as good as it's going to get. Either way, better than nothing I suppose.
One more update I decided to pull the fuse on the sync system since turning off the screen didn't completely disable the lcd. Once the fuse was pulled there was no longer a heat source under the dash and everything stayed cool. I let the car heat up as normal and once the engine was warm I turned my heat on. Its pretty cold today at 50F and the inside of the car, lcd, and dash area were at about the same temperature. I can say this is the first time I saw hot air coming out of the vents when a setting of below 83F was selected. I was able to set the heat to 70F and still get hot air out not just warmish it was actually hot. Even at a setting of 60F I was still getting warmish air which makes sense since the plastic dash area was at 57F at this point. After leaving the heat on at 75F the car came to an average temperature of 72F-73F and the dash showed a temperature of 75F at which point the air coming from the dash went from hot to warmish on manual and the fan turned off when set in auto. I then plugged the sync fuse back in and the dash quickly heated up along with the lcd and the problem returned no heat unless I put it on HI. This means I am likely correct and the proximity of the lcd to the temperature sensor is causing false heat readings. There seems to be a direct correlation with the temperature of the dash and the temperature of the vent air. I think the best way to fix this problem would be to relocate the temperature sensor but the question is where to put it if not in the dash?
Now this doesn't mean I don't think the software update can't fix the problem its possible that it can and even if it doesn't the improved functionality is still worth it. Like I said before if they are aware of the in dash temperatures its possible that the update could allow the system to compensate for the added heat from the lcd. My only concern for this is that the lcd operates at varying temperatures. In day mode the lcd runs as hot as 110F, in night mode it was 86F, and off it was 80F. How well the new programming compensates is yet to be seen but I am hopeful and getting it done on Friday. If I get bored I may pop off the plastic cover and see if I can move the sensor to see if that fixes the problem before doing the update. As always I'll keep you posted.
Another thing to note is that if the new software does compensate for the heat from the lcd moving the sensor after the update probably wont be a good idea. If the update does what I think it will taking the sensor away from the heat of the lcd after the update will result in a reversal of the problem with it always blowing hot. Hopefully we get some good news from people with the update.
Now this doesn't mean I don't think the software update can't fix the problem its possible that it can and even if it doesn't the improved functionality is still worth it. Like I said before if they are aware of the in dash temperatures its possible that the update could allow the system to compensate for the added heat from the lcd. My only concern for this is that the lcd operates at varying temperatures. In day mode the lcd runs as hot as 110F, in night mode it was 86F, and off it was 80F. How well the new programming compensates is yet to be seen but I am hopeful and getting it done on Friday. If I get bored I may pop off the plastic cover and see if I can move the sensor to see if that fixes the problem before doing the update. As always I'll keep you posted.
Another thing to note is that if the new software does compensate for the heat from the lcd moving the sensor after the update probably wont be a good idea. If the update does what I think it will taking the sensor away from the heat of the lcd after the update will result in a reversal of the problem with it always blowing hot. Hopefully we get some good news from people with the update.
I went ahead and popped off the plastic hot box covering the lcd. There are 6 clips holding it down they just pop forward (towards you) and up to come out. Looking underneath shows just how close the sensor is. Its about 5-6 inches away from the heat sinks of the lcd. The sensor is plugged down into a chamber of the dash probably so that by the time that chamber is at the set point so is the car at least that was probably the theory. With the shroud off its clear that the lcd is cooking everything under this area. With out the shroud the lcd ran about 10 degrees cooler than normal at about 100F after 20 minutes but with out the shroud the surrounding area wasn't getting crazy hot like before. The final nail for this one was that the heat worked the same with the shroud off as it did with the sync fuse pulled. With the lcd in normal day mode and the thermostat set to 75F hot air pumped out until the car was about 71F-72F then in manual the air turned warmish and in auto the fan slowed just like before with the sync fuse pulled. Long story short the lcd's location in relationship to the sensor is the obvious cause of our problem. That being said I can see why ford has opted to try and fix this with software instead of just moving the sensor. The question of where would it go comes to mind that along with the fact that moving it would require a tech to disassemble and rewire the under dash area not a fun idea for anyone. Who knows what could be damaged in the process. I wonder if the sync 3 system has a new lcd that is making more heat than the previous systems since 14-15 cars seem to be fine. Has any one with a 14-15 had the plastic off can you confirm that the temperature sensor is in the same spot as mine about 5-6 inches behind the lcd or give some temp reading of the older lcd screen.
Mentokk can you ask your friend with the 15 to check it out? Temp guns can be had for like $15 at homedepot if he doesn't want to pull his dash up.
Mentokk can you ask your friend with the 15 to check it out? Temp guns can be had for like $15 at homedepot if he doesn't want to pull his dash up.
Took it in for the flash today. Apparently there was something funky going on because the flash process locked up not one, but two of their IDS computers. Service writer is going to call me tomorrow or the next day to bring it back. Funny shit, it worked normally on the way home until I stopped the car to stop in Sears, then didn't work for the next leg, but worked again after stopping at Wawa.
I've been driving around for a couple days with the fix. At the very least it has cured the no heat/full blast cold when the temp is adjusted after those "short stops" as I call them. Now if I run an errand and briefly get out of the car, or put he car in reverse and back out of an extended driveway the car doesn't go full Arctic blast mode.
The system will also now adjust the temp up or down accordingly after those mentioned situations.
Either in this thread or another someone stated the temp is off by a few degrees relative to the temperature set. I'm used to this condition in almost 20 years of exclusively owning cars with auto climate control. The temps are typically not precise, but you can at least count on a predictable variance and for 65 to be cool, and likewise, 80 to be warm.
Overall I'm pleased and satisfied with the result. Now, I still universally hate Ford dealerships. All they had to do was reflash my AC though the OBD2 port. When I get my car back the door card and panel area had some kind of liquid on it, like someone spit on it. Aside from being grossed out, they also managed to scratch the pull handle panel cover. That's two consecutive times the dealer has caused physical damage to one of my vehicles for minor issues.
Not to hijack the thread but if anyone knows a good Ford service department in the Las Vegas area I'd really like to know it.
The system will also now adjust the temp up or down accordingly after those mentioned situations.
Either in this thread or another someone stated the temp is off by a few degrees relative to the temperature set. I'm used to this condition in almost 20 years of exclusively owning cars with auto climate control. The temps are typically not precise, but you can at least count on a predictable variance and for 65 to be cool, and likewise, 80 to be warm.
Overall I'm pleased and satisfied with the result. Now, I still universally hate Ford dealerships. All they had to do was reflash my AC though the OBD2 port. When I get my car back the door card and panel area had some kind of liquid on it, like someone spit on it. Aside from being grossed out, they also managed to scratch the pull handle panel cover. That's two consecutive times the dealer has caused physical damage to one of my vehicles for minor issues.
Not to hijack the thread but if anyone knows a good Ford service department in the Las Vegas area I'd really like to know it.
Thread Starter
#135
I think I'm buying into needbout350's theory. I never had any software update, and the evaporator housing ended up being my fix. I'm wondering if that sensor was replaced with the housing on my car, or if it was slightly repositioned. My husband had suggested that a sensor in the car could have had a manufacturing defect as well, so maybe it was just a bad batch of sensors. I'm going on 3 weeks without an issue now. Works just like my 2014 did.
The sensor is always involved. Auto only takes over control of fan speed and direction. If it worked the way you are saying with the sensor not being used in manual the problem would only exist in auto.
I understand your confusion as older cars had a truly manual mode. Moving a slide meant you got a certain temperature out of the vent that increased linearly from cold to hot as you moved the slide from left to right. These systems while effective are very inefficient and often result in the user pig ponging the slide back and forth unable to come to a comfortable temperature you're either too hot or too cold or constantly turning it on and off. These new systems use feedback loops and intelligent control to remove that issue. So in manual you can put it on your favorite position and fan speed and it will blow hot or cold based on a temperature varrence or "error" from the set point and what is actually being read by the sensor. That way as the car aproaches the set temperature the system can change the vent temperature in an attempt to keep the car at that set temp instade of shooting past it requiring user input. In manual mode this means the system goes from blowing hot to warmish as you reach the set point. In auto it means the system goes from blowing hot to warmish and slows the fan speed until the temperature of the car moves out of an acceptable range then it will speed back up. If it worked properly you would be able to set a temperature in auto and never have to touch it again. Or if in manual changing the fan speed would be the only thing you would need to do since leaving it at 80 wouldent be melting your face after too much time had passed.
The only time the sensor isn't used is when set to HI or LO it simply blows out max hot or max cold regardless of what the sensor is reading or if your in auto or manual. That's why we get hot air when it's set to HI and cold everywhere else. But if you notice on HI the car will get uncomfortably hot and it can't be left on HI forever eventually it requires some input from you.
As far as being off by a few degrees that is going to depend on how well the system is calibrated and the placement of the sensor. If the sensor gets to the set point before the car it will reduce the controller's response. I noted with the cover off or the fuse pulled the system seemed to stop trying to heat the car once it was with in 3-4 degrees at the same time the sensor area was already at 75F. Auto would slow down the fan and the air blowing out went from hot to warm. Warm being about the temperature the system was set to. Heating up from 60 the vent temp was as high as 140 and then as the car approached 72F the air from the vent had come down to about 75F in both auto and manual the only difference being that auto had also nearly stopped the fan.
I understand your confusion as older cars had a truly manual mode. Moving a slide meant you got a certain temperature out of the vent that increased linearly from cold to hot as you moved the slide from left to right. These systems while effective are very inefficient and often result in the user pig ponging the slide back and forth unable to come to a comfortable temperature you're either too hot or too cold or constantly turning it on and off. These new systems use feedback loops and intelligent control to remove that issue. So in manual you can put it on your favorite position and fan speed and it will blow hot or cold based on a temperature varrence or "error" from the set point and what is actually being read by the sensor. That way as the car aproaches the set temperature the system can change the vent temperature in an attempt to keep the car at that set temp instade of shooting past it requiring user input. In manual mode this means the system goes from blowing hot to warmish as you reach the set point. In auto it means the system goes from blowing hot to warmish and slows the fan speed until the temperature of the car moves out of an acceptable range then it will speed back up. If it worked properly you would be able to set a temperature in auto and never have to touch it again. Or if in manual changing the fan speed would be the only thing you would need to do since leaving it at 80 wouldent be melting your face after too much time had passed.
The only time the sensor isn't used is when set to HI or LO it simply blows out max hot or max cold regardless of what the sensor is reading or if your in auto or manual. That's why we get hot air when it's set to HI and cold everywhere else. But if you notice on HI the car will get uncomfortably hot and it can't be left on HI forever eventually it requires some input from you.
As far as being off by a few degrees that is going to depend on how well the system is calibrated and the placement of the sensor. If the sensor gets to the set point before the car it will reduce the controller's response. I noted with the cover off or the fuse pulled the system seemed to stop trying to heat the car once it was with in 3-4 degrees at the same time the sensor area was already at 75F. Auto would slow down the fan and the air blowing out went from hot to warm. Warm being about the temperature the system was set to. Heating up from 60 the vent temp was as high as 140 and then as the car approached 72F the air from the vent had come down to about 75F in both auto and manual the only difference being that auto had also nearly stopped the fan.
That makes sense since the sensor sits on that housing. Changeing that part would require pretty extinsive dississembly of the dash. I'm wondering if when it was put back together more ventilation was given to that area by way of leaving out some insulater. Keeping the lcd from heat soaking the sensor and netting you proper functiality. I plan to look at it some more today if I get the chance.
Update. I no longer think the sensor behind the lcd is the interior temp sensor. After more testing I put a camera down in the hole the sensor sits in and it is clearly part of the vent system. Also when the air is on and the sensor is removed air comes out of the hole. However it being a vent sensor dosent change the problem. It's still being heat soaked by the lcd causing false readings making the controller think the vent is much hotter than it is so we get cold air.
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