Best intake available - Dyno proven?

[kevinatfms]

Curious why they did it in 2nd.

Horrible dyno operator. I love K&N but you should always dyno a car in its 1:1 or as close to 1:1 as you can get. In our cars i believe its 4th gear at 1.030:1 as 5th is .821:1.

 

[Etyrnus]

Horrible dyno operator. I love K&N but you should always dyno a car in its 1:1 or as close to 1:1 as you can get. In our cars i believe its 4th gear at 1.030:1 as 5th is .821:1.

That's along what I've been told, 3rd, preferably 4th for dyno on the FiST. Don't think I'd want to put dyno strain on 5th myself.

 

[pelotonracer2]

My point is very simple.

Think of it like a power:weight ratio number. The cooler the air going in,the cooler air coming out. Any combo you use!

Your worst scenarios air-air is.. Listen closely.

1. The ability of the IC to convert ambient temps to lower temps.

If you increase the temps to the IC, the range of it's cooling ability is decreased. It's basic heat transfer. The blow page works as a primer in most applications, even out side of the automotive industry (Overclocking CPU's w/o water).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_transfer#Radiation

The two factors you are completely dismissing is "available" air and intercooler design (flow charctoristics based on volume, velocity and pressure drop). If both my intakes provide a 3-5 degree above ambient result at speed and you punch it, then theoretically speaking, it boils down to the available air, volume, velocity, materials and fit & finish (design of the intake) whether or not one will make more power than the other. Air inlet temps differ a bit but charge temps are much closer. How do you explain that? I don't disagree that a denser charge will increase power (just as increasing volume AND or velocity will also improve power as well). Another factor is piping length and material used. The longer the length, the more heat it collects in the material AND with added length, the more pressure drop there will be. Try sucking fluid through a short straw v.s. a very long one (it'll be a bit exaggerated but you'll get the idea). Intake "area" (usually associated with filter size and shape) is also a contributing factor in making power. A conical style filter will almost always outflow a flat panel style filter that sits in a box *AND* improve throttle response (because it can more easily grab air from more area). These are all important factors concerning "making increases or decreases in power", not just intercooler efficiency (the ability to decrease charge temps from intake inlet temps).

In my testing between the isolated Cobb intake and exposed FSWERKs, there is no difference at all in charge temps (using the Cobb intercooler) while underway. Keep in mind, one intake is completely enclosed, the other is open style sucking hot air from under the hood... If there is less than 1% difference in charge temps, please explain to me how the Cobb is theoretically making more power than the FSWERKs solely based on "charge temps"?

Now, in hindsight... the stock IC is a completely different story. I saw a much bigger difference in heat soak and charge temps between the aformentioned intakes. The numbers between ambient, inlet and charge temps are noticeably different (wider) between the Cobb IC and stock. But this may have more to do with the actual design (flow and pressure drop) of the stock IC and it's charge pipes. Heat soak is much more pronounced AND normalization of charge temps took much longer once underway than with the Cobb IC.

The ONLY real world difference I have seen between the open style and enclosed/isolated intakes I have is "off idle heat soak" (less throttle response on very hot days) when sitting in heavy traffic or at a long stop light. This only lasts for a few seconds. Once I get moving, charge temps normalize quite quickly. When I compared the two intakes there was no discernable difference in the relationship between charge temps driving down the road. So perhaps some of those other factors I mentioned are at play here.

I realize most of this is splitting hairs because our stock turbo can only flow so much air. It is in itself a "restriction". This is the MAIN reason aftermarket intakes have shown very little gains over the stock one. It is not because the stock intake is so good but rather it is adequate for use with the stock turbo set-up. Some comaprisons between intake set-ups would be beneficial by people who have gone to bigger turbos (and or even a cyborg set-up).

With that said, I've found over the years that the ability to move air into the turbo trumps having a "cold air intake" when it comes to making power. This is especially true if you have a really good IC design (one with minimal restriction and increased heat transfer). The stock intercooler on the Fiesta ST pretty much sucks, but is to be expected on a lower cost entry level performance car.

 

[pelotonracer2]

Oh and by the way... I've swapped out the intakes several times (between the Cobb and FSWERKs) and guess which one I am using? heh

 

[yackyz]

I still like my k&n and i didnt know that about the proper dyno pulls good info

 

[Etyrnus]

I still like my k&n and i didnt know that about the proper dyno pulls good info

Don't want you to think I meant anything against it, I was honestly curious as to why they dynoed it in 2nd. To me it seems like they determined that's the best gear to demonstrate the gains from their intake. It just stands out since most dyno pulls I see are 3rd or 4th gear.

As long as your ears and butt dyno are enjoying the sounds and feel, I say it's good.

 

[kevinatfms]

Don't want you to think I meant anything against it, I was honestly curious as to why they dynoed it in 2nd. To me it seems like they determined that's the best gear to demonstrate the gains from their intake. It just stands out since most dyno pulls I see are 3rd or 4th gear.

As long as your ears and butt dyno are enjoying the sounds and feel, I say it's good.

The good thing is that they kept the test parameters within 10% of each other(in regards to staying in 2nd for both tests, the density and temp reading). So the gains he has are true to form. The issue I have with the dyno is the lower gear ratio(higher numerically which equals a higher multiplication of torque) is that the numbers are going to read lower than if he dynoed the car in 4th. If he goes back and they dyno it in 4th gear he will see an improvement from the loss of the gear multiplication.

 

[yackyz]

The good thing is that they kept the test parameters within 10% of each other(in regards to staying in 2nd for both tests, the density and temp reading). So the gains he has are true to form. The issue I have with the dyno is the lower gear ratio(higher numerically which equals a higher multiplication of torque) is that the numbers are going to read lower than if he dynoed the car in 4th. If he goes back and they dyno it in 4th gear he will see an improvement from the loss of the gear multiplication.

Well said

 

[maperformance]

Pull from our MAPerformance: 2015 Fiesta ST R&D Project (Tuning, Intake, Downpipe, Exhaust, Turbo Kit) Thread.

Intake testing and R&D

I will be updating this thread in the next couple of hours, so put a ratchet strap around your head to keep your mind from blowing.

First up is the R&D of the intake. I unfortunately didn't get many pictures during the R&D process, however I will share what I have.

We made many different variations of our intake, but it ended up being between the long and the shorty intake. After testing we decided to stick with the shorty and I will layout in detail, why.

Here are some pictures of some of the first intake (long) being fabbed up:

Long intake all tacked up for fitment

Showing the mounting point we were thinking of using

All welded up and fitted

The mounting point was a concern of mine as it wasn't very sturdy, and I didn't like how close the filter was to the ground. The Fiesta doesn't have a large splash shield like other vehicles, so the chance of hitting a puddle and bringing in some water was a factor in our decision.

Other companies on the market include a rear intake pipe as well that drops down to the turbo inlet. We decided to do the same, but were very fond of the factory unit. It is smooth, and has the proper transition from 2.5" to 2" that you would never be able to obtain with a fabricated piece. We fab'd up the rear section, and did some testing with it as well. Here are some pictures:

Here you can see the whole intake system in place

And here is the fitment with the factory engine cover

Now, the shorty intake. This is the final product intake that we decided on. I didn't take any pictures of it being put together as I was out of town, but is fairly simple you can capture all features in the final product pictures. Ignore the dark spots on the pipe, that has something to do with the photoboot we take pictures in. All of our products are clean silver and are cleaned multiple times during the production process. If it was actually "dark" it wouldn't weld beautifully like you can see.

I will have final installed pictures added later, I have everything off the car right now for intercooler testing . There is a picture below of it installed during testing, but nothing up close.

Results, here we go!

All intakes were tested on the same day, all within an hour of each other. Temperature was as close to each other as possible, but there are going to be +/- 1-2° variations because we have an extreme ventilation system in our dyno cell that can make the temperature fluctuate depending on how long it has been on.

Baseline. This is a completely stock fiesta, with stock intake. As always, I do all my testing with a Cobb Stage 1 OTS tune file to keep consistency.

Dyno:

Data:

Dyno: 192.14hp | 252.47tq
Ambient Temperature: 72.9°
Peak Boost: 22.25psi
Intake Temperature: Min 81° | Max 84.2° | Average 82.57°


Long intake results. Again, stock car with our intake only.


Dyno:

Data:

Dyno: 198.87hp | 255.81tq
Ambient Temperature: 70°
Peak Boost: 22.45psi
Intake Temperature: Min 96° | Max 113° | Average 103.1°

So this intake made some power (+6.73hp | +3.34tq) which is great, but if you take a look at the intake temperatures over the factory intake you can see they start off 15° hotter than the factory intake, and end up at 28.8° hotter at the end of the run. This is not acceptable to us, so this forced us to go back to the drawing board and re-design the intake. Which lead us to the shorty intake....

Shorty intake results and data

Dyno:

Data:

Dyno: 199.57hp | 254.16tq
Ambient Temperature: 70°
Peak Boost: 22.42psi
Intake Temperature: Min 82° | Max 86.5° | Average 83.97°

Here are a few more dataplots of all the intakes laid over

You can see above on the boost plot that the shorty intake spooled the fastest out of all the intakes (Green). The Stock intake was second (Red), and the long intake was slowest spool (Blue).

Summary on this guy. MUCH BETTER. You can see the ambient temperatures are very close to the factory intake, and if you take a look at the second from last data plot above you can see that the intake temperatures dropped during the pull and ended cooler than it started. This is exactly what we were looking for. Sometimes following industry standards of shoving the filter down as far as you can in the engine bay isn't the answer.

Features:
- Constructed of 304SS
- USA Made Green Filter (Washable)
- 100% Tig Welded with Back Purge
- Mounts to engine to allow the intake to move together in sequence with engine
- Billet CNC MAF flange mounted under intake for a cleaner look
- 100% Direct fit (3/8" Push on fitting will be added to the final shipped product)
- Lifetime Warranty

Price: $189.99 shipped

I will be putting together the product page today so everyone can purchase. It will also be available in wrinkle black which I will update with pictures as soon as the intake gets back from powdercoating. Wrinkle black will be an additional $35.00.

ETA for Raw version of our intake is 7-10 business days, and black will be 14-17 business days.

If you have any questions please post up! I will reply when I can as I'm going to start on the post for Intercooler testing and release.

*WHOOPS FORGOT ONE BIT OF INFO! The second pipe that we developed in the above thread will not be offered. It provided zero gains and increase the air intake temperatures because it runs directly over the exhaust manifold*

Copied over from our intake post from earlier.

 

[kevinatfms]

I don't see how the intake sitting open in the stock location doesn't get heat soaked. Did you dyno each with the hood closed?

Since this is the same as the Injen I cannot see how yours is any improvement over the Injen? That is known to have terrible heat soak during low air flow situations.

Any plans on making a sealed box of some sort to shield it from the heat?

 

[yackyz]

I don't see how the intake sitting open in the stock location doesn't get heat soaked. Did you dyno each with the hood closed?

Since this is the same as the Injen I cannot see how yours is any improvement over the Injen? That is known to have terrible heat soak during low air flow situations.

Any plans on making a sealed box of some sort to shield it from the heat?

The heat shield is critical I believe. Reason why I love my kn so much. I have no official data logs but the stock air box got hotter than the filter with the benefit of the heatshield. This design is nice for airflow but needs a heatshield imo to maintain that balance.

 

[dyn085]

The heat shield is critical I believe. Reason why I love my kn so much. I have no official data logs but the stock air box got hotter than the filter with the benefit of the heatshield. This design is nice for airflow but needs a heatshield imo to maintain that balance.

I highly doubt that your K&N has cooler temps than the stock box.

 

[JPGC]

I highly doubt that the hood was closed during the dyno pulls. Either way, we will see when these hit the streets. The only concern I would have is at idle....may get a little warm as does the Injen and FS Werks. Once rolling, It should be fine.

 

[dyn085]

I highly doubt that the hood was closed during the dyno pulls. Either way, we will see when these hit the streets. The only concern I would have is at idle....may get a little warm as does the Injen and FS Werks. Once rolling, It should be fine.

Exactly. Anyone who does a lot of stop-and-go or inner-city driving should shy away from an member of any type-shielded or not. Unless they like the frustration of having nothing happen when they try to pull away from a stop. Those that have fewer stops shouldn't as be overly concerned.

 

[yackyz]

To each his own

 

[kevinatfms]

I would still rather have a full box than an open element filter. Something that draws air from outside the engine bay. Moving or not.

Also, i notice that the "long" MAP system sits right in front of the engine fan. On the dyno at operating temps for the test i can see why the temps skyrocketed.

I like that MAP is making tons of parts for the Fiesta ST but i question why every piece of data is skewed to make their products look 100x better than the competition. If they could explain why their exhaust makes 20ft-lbs of torque more than the almost carbon copy of another exhaust system I would be more inclined to support them. Or how this open filter element intake makes more power or is any better than the sealed Cobb unit or CPE full box system that draws fresh, cool air from outside of the engine bay.

 

[maperformance]

I don't see how the intake sitting open in the stock location doesn't get heat soaked. Did you dyno each with the hood closed?

Since this is the same as the Injen I cannot see how yours is any improvement over the Injen? That is known to have terrible heat soak during low air flow situations.

Any plans on making a sealed box of some sort to shield it from the heat?

I did testing both ways, the results were slightly different. Mostly because of the way my enclosed dyno cell is designed. If I am testing multiple products in the same environment and there are changes between each product that is recorded and that is what you are seeing.

Here is an explanation of why we don't use an airbox, we have tested airbox systems on multiple different vehicles and hardly is it ever the best option.

We did closed box intake testing on another vehicle and it proved to actually perform worse. We assessed the engine bay of the Fiesta and opted to stay with the open design to avoid a possible similar result from previous testing. Closed boxes concentrate air in a small area, if the box itself absorbs heat from the engine bay it has more surface area for the air to pass over and increase the intake air temp. Air boxes have 360° air scavenging but from a small concentrated area. The open style that we run also has 360° air scavenging but it always has continuous air flowing around it and has more than one source of fresh air. Essentially the air passes through the intake system so fast that the material only really plays a part of the static air in the engine bay. This is why we chose to stick with the factory inlet tube to the turbo as it is plastic. If you run a metal secondary inlet it will act as another source of heat in the engine bay as it sits directly above the exhaust manifold

The injen intake has a secondary inlet pipe that sits over the manifold, and that creates another source of heat in the engine bay. Again, we stuck with factory plastic piping as increased diameter showed no gains, and plastic has better thermal properties.

Air boxes do connect to "fresh air" source but has anyone taken apart the upper shrouding to see where the source of fresh air is coming from? It's not, that fresh air "channel" is basically sealed and only pulls in air from the edges by the headlight.

I highly recommend everyone to trim out the plastic to allow for true fresh air to get into the air ducting channel, I believe there are multiple DIY's on the forums here for this.

I highly doubt that the hood was closed during the dyno pulls. Either way, we will see when these hit the streets. The only concern I would have is at idle....may get a little warm as does the Injen and FS Werks. Once rolling, It should be fine.

It does get a little warm at idle, but that is basically with any intake, I had the same results with the stock intake. The best thing about our intake is the recovery from heat soak. I can sit at idle in a parking lot on a 80° day and it will get up to 105° by the time I exit the parking lot and get onto the main road I am already within 5-7° of ambient temperature.

I would still rather have a full box than an open element filter. Something that draws air from outside the engine bay. Moving or not.

Also, i notice that the "long" MAP system sits right in front of the engine fan. On the dyno at operating temps for the test i can see why the temps skyrocketed.

I like that MAP is making tons of parts for the Fiesta ST but i question why every piece of data is skewed to make their products look 100x better than the competition. If they could explain why their exhaust makes 20ft-lbs of torque more than the almost carbon copy of another exhaust system I would be more inclined to support them. Or how this open filter element intake makes more power or is any better than the sealed Cobb unit or CPE full box system that draws fresh, cool air from outside of the engine bay.

I already made a large post on why our exhaust makes power, and downpipes do not. No other vendor or manufacture of products for our vehicles (Fiesta) do testing or data collection like I provide. If you don't believe the results, then I would suggest that you provide me data that proves otherwise. If I was in the business of making products to turn a profit I would of done the following:

1.) Skewed my results to show that our downpipe makes power, even though it doesn't. I only manufacturer a downpipe to support turbo upgrades that are already on the market and our turbo upgrade that will be released in the future.

2.) I would of used our Faro arm to probe the engine bay, and also 3D scanned the engine bay, then continued to make a 100% sealed 3D Printed airbox that would of jacked up the price. I have the facility and machines to accomdate the manufacturing of such a product but find it unnecessary.

3.) I would of put sheet metal end tanks on our intercooler instead of billet and sold it for the same price. We used billet because testing and data has proved it to be better, on our own vehicles and 3rd party testing. If I would of done sheet metal end tanks I would of sold it for the same price as the drive for our products is to out perform while still being price competitive. Billet end tanks was our choice to have the better fitting and performing product.

Sure, the common thing to do is to provide a better product and sell it for more because it is the better product. However as a consumer and manufacturer myself (ourselves) I find it much more appetizing to be above to afford a quality hand made product manufactured in the USA that has testing results, versus something made in Taiwan/China that only has biased reviews or half-assed testing .

I have products already heading out of our facility and should be seeing reviews all over the forum. I'm sure you didn't miss the reviews of our exhaust posted all over .

 

[mishimoto1]

Hey guys,

Intake discussions typically turn into massive threads filled with angry discussions backed mostly by opinions. There are a few ways to ensure you are getting a good product. First, purchasing from a trustworthy company with accurate and in depth data. Although I am sure you are aware, skewing dyno data is quite simple and can be done in a variety of ways. Building the trust of an enthusiast community is a challenge, especially when your products perform well and defy typical opinions of intake system power benefits. The second method is through positive independent reviews. Once a product is on the market, normally you will see a few folks post up their opinions. Assuming they are unbiased, we can infer that this member is providing an honest opinion, even if they may be slightly influenced by excitement.

For a product not yet released, obtaining independent reviews can be quite challenging. In the end it is up to the consumer to determine if they trust the company enough to be the forum “guinea pig” so to speak.

We consider our shop Fiesta to be our “guinea pig”. We’ve put a ton of spirited mileage on the car and it’s also seen countless dyno pulls as we tweak product design and enhance each component. Our car is the official test subject for all products hitting our warehouse shelves. In this respect, we expect our customers to have a level of trust that assumes our products will in no way damage or negatively impact their vehicle.

Our Offerings

We actually have two projects going on in relation to the intake system of the FIST. Both are fantastic projects and offer a slight difference in benefits and features. In addition, both products produce power gains, which are completely repeatable.

Option 1: Silicone Induction Hose

• Easy To Install
• Retains Factory Airbox
• 5whp / 10 wtq bolt-on gains
• Factory-Like Appearance
• Inexpensive (Now on Pre-sale, $149.95)
• No additional intake noise

Our induction hose is quite an interesting piece. This component replaces the factory rubber induction hose which features accordion portions to allow for engine flex. As a result, these portions of the hose cause restrictions to airflow. Smoothening the internal diameter of the hose proved to make a massive impact on power output, even our engineering team was a bit surprised. Dyno plot shown below!

Power is made through the low end through 5,500 rpm. Once at the top of the power band, power output is similar to the stock hose. Maximum gains are seen around 3,000 rpm to the tune of 5 whp and 10 wtq, which is where the factory plot seems to dip while our induction hose retains a smoother line. Through most of the band, we are seeing 1-3 whp/wtq which is a nice increase considering you can bolt this on in around 15 minutes (this includes beer breaks).

For more information about our R&D, as well as an evaluation of the stock hose, check out the thread below.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...sta-ST-Silicone-Induction-Hose-R-amp-D-Report

Option 2: Full Intake System

Prototype Image

• Slightly longer installation process
• Replaces factory airbox
• 6 whp / 10 wtq bolt-on gains (More Power In Top End)
• Bolder Engine Bay Addition
• Increased Intake Volume, Improved Induction Noise

Our intake system is still in the development phase and is for a bit of a different customer. Your first question may be in regards to power output. Why is it only making one more whp? Take a look at our plot for this system.

The plot is strikingly similar to that of our induction hose. Primary differences are the power gains at the top end, which we can attribute to the removal of the restrictive stock airbox. On average, this system provides an additional 1-2 whp / wtq over the induction hose through most of the powerband. Not huge, but every pony counts.

This setup is for someone looking for both noise and power, and it certainly provides both. This airbox is much less subtle than our induction hose. You can hear it and you can certainly see it when the hood is open. We are wrapping up development here within the next few weeks and will likely launch a discounted pre-sale.

For full details on the R&D process, check out our thread below.

http://www.fiestastforum.com/forum/...for-the-Fiesta!-ST-Performance-Intake-R-amp-D!

That should provide some basic insight into the results we saw with the components designed by our team. Both are great products and nice additions to the ST. Let us know if we can answer any questions about either component.

Thanks
-John

 

[kevinatfms]

I did testing both ways, the results were slightly different. Mostly because of the way my enclosed dyno cell is designed. If I am testing multiple products in the same environment and there are changes between each product that is recorded and that is what you are seeing.
Here is an explanation of why we don't use an airbox, we have tested airbox systems on multiple different vehicles and hardly is it ever the best option.Every single company I have ever talked to has spoken differently. They have tested it quite extensively. Even the manufacturer's who have multi-million dollar race teams feel the same way and provide a fresh air source to an enclosed box.

The injen intake has a secondary inlet pipe that sits over the manifold, and that creates another source of heat in the engine bay. Again, we stuck with factory plastic piping as increased diameter showed no gains, and plastic has better thermal properties. This is what I was asking for. I did not know the Injen version had the extra tubing piece that connected over the turbo. That is understandable how your testing has shown a reduction in inlet temps due to not heat soaking the pipe over the turbo. Thank you.

Air boxes do connect to "fresh air" source but has anyone taken apart the upper shrouding to see where the source of fresh air is coming from? It's not, that fresh air "channel" is basically sealed and only pulls in air from the edges by the headlight.
I highly recommend everyone to trim out the plastic to allow for true fresh air to get into the air ducting channel, I believe there are multiple DIY's on the forums here for this.

It does get a little warm at idle, but that is basically with any intake, I had the same results with the stock intake. The best thing about our intake is the recovery from heat soak. I can sit at idle in a parking lot on a 80° day and it will get up to 105° by the time I exit the parking lot and get onto the main road I am already within 5-7° of ambient temperature.



I already made a large post on why our exhaust makes power, and downpipes do not. No other vendor or manufacture of products for our vehicles (Fiesta) do testing or data collection like I provide. If you don't believe the results, then I would suggest that you provide me data that proves otherwise. If I was in the business of making products to turn a profit I would of done the following:This last sentence bugs me. You are making products to turn a profit. Im not saying you are skewing the data 100% but it seems that your catback exhaust alone on a stage 1 tune(your variable) makes almost double the torque of an almost exact copy of the exhaust system. Same pipe size, muffler diameter and basic shape yet you still make quite a bit more power. Do you have better internal baffle design for more flow? Do you have larger internal tubing for more flow? You dont need to give trade secrets away just a basic understanding would be helpful to those looking for the best. I do love the 304SS you all use and think its the highest quality steel around.

1.) Skewed my results to show that our downpipe makes power, even though it doesn't. I only manufacturer a downpipe to support turbo upgrades that are already on the market and our turbo upgrade that will be released in the future.

2.) I would of used our Faro arm to probe the engine bay, and also 3D scanned the engine bay, then continued to make a 100% sealed 3D Printed airbox that would of jacked up the price. I have the facility and machines to accomdate the manufacturing of such a product but find it unnecessary.

3.) I would of put sheet metal end tanks on our intercooler instead of billet and sold it for the same price. We used billet because testing and data has proved it to be better, on our own vehicles and 3rd party testing. If I would of done sheet metal end tanks I would of sold it for the same price as the drive for our products is to out perform while still being price competitive. Billet end tanks was our choice to have the better fitting and performing product.

Sure, the common thing to do is to provide a better product and sell it for more because it is the better product. However as a consumer and manufacturer myself (ourselves) I find it much more appetizing to be above to afford a quality hand made product manufactured in the USA that has testing results, versus something made in Taiwan/China that only has biased reviews or half-assed testing .

I have products already heading out of our facility and should be seeing reviews all over the forum. I'm sure you didn't miss the reviews of our exhaust posted all over .

Added some questions above. I hope you dont take this as me trying to bash anyone. I just want to know the 100% facts and information. I have always been a questionable kind of person and take all information in.

On one other note, have you seen any indication that ford has put a delay on the throttle body control?

 

[MCBst]

I personally love my 2j Racing intake, but I havent gotten it on the dyno yet so I can't say. About it being too loud... thats what the stereo volume is for.