Traction Control with Limited Slip Diff

[Siestarider]

Pondering the range of results posted for OEM brake pad and rotor wear on track and reports on various big brake alternatives.

My experience is that leaving nannies on while driving hard on track will toast brakes, rears faster than fronts but both used up fast.

With nannies fully off, rear brakes are ok, rotors below 750F and calipers below 250F based on my two temp test days at different tracks.

Fronts are another story. Hard tracking will use up a lot of front brake via traction control even with all nannies off. Harder you throw it around, faster fronts wear. I was so aggravated by TC intervening on track days that I sprung for Quaife before getting better brakes. Now maybe I do not need better brakes.

It would not surprise me if OEM brakes and pads are fine for tracking with a LSD, at least with DOT tires.

I ran my temp tests after installing Quaife LSD. Inside rotors ran over 1250F Sebring and 1000F PBIR, outsides ran about 250F cooler. Right front ran hotter at Sebring, fronts equal at PBIR. OEM pads worked better than Hawk street/track pads, no fade, no visible wear (on 1/2 a dry track day, cannot count rain tracking).

The key for us trackers is how much front brakes are being used for TC. We really need a way to log this (Cobb?). I know TC is still active with the Quaife, cannot tell how active. I am getting power down out of turns so much better than before I am delighted with the mod, so front brakes definitely less involved with LSD. But we need data.

Anyone know how to collect TC data? Or some approximation thereof?

If we had TC data, maybe a lot of the front brake mysteries reported in forums could be better understood.

Thanks

PS. I hope I read wrongly that Focus RS uses the same TC we have but on all 4 wheels. Great system for street driving, lousy for track.

 

[GateCityRadio]

Its my understanding you can turn traction control off, but not the torque vectoring....which I assume in most of this post you are talking about the torque vectoring.
I think ford makes an ABS unit that retains ABS but eliminates traction control and torque vectoring.

 

[Siestarider]

My bad, you are correct, TVC is the proper acronym for traction control when ESC is turned 100% off. Function remains the same, during hard cornering inside front wheel brake is applied so outside wheel can get more torque with open diff.

ESC presumably modulates engine torque and all 4 wheel brakes. I could not find whether TVC intervenes with engine when ESC is off.

I am tempted to try the Ford racing module, but they do not post instructions with it, so hard to evaluate how easy it is to install and remove.

 

[GAbOS]

As I understand it, it's all controlled via the ABS unit.

In the olden days, we would just yank the ABS fuse or use brake line adapters to bypass the unit itself. With today's ECU's it may put it in limp mode but who knows. The only thing I want to know is who's trying it first? ;>

1st answer: Not me! I already have a car with relocated-everything-brakes.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Search the threads, one member already bought the Ford unit and I believe found it not a direct fit or could not determine it would interface or work properly, something like that at least.

I kept forgetting to turn ECS off and ate up most of a set of expensive Carbotech pads in two days, 70 degree weather, 8 sessions, I have the quaiffe and race tires as well as had the Cyborg turbo so more power than stock.

ECS off should be much easier on pads.

I now have an EFR turbo, soon switching to GTX, highest Vdyno showed 300+ WHP, 225 Rival S tires, no wheel spin in second gear or third but serious torque steer with or without ECS(which should always be off with that much power, sticky tires, getting on it...) The car darts around quite a bit, have to hang on with both hands and keep it going where you want it. I am hoping a different LSD will work out better but nothing tested I know of yet and I no longer have a lift, let alone a shop to work in so cannot be the tester.

 

[Siestarider]

Search the threads, one member already bought the Ford unit and I believe found it not a direct fit or could not determine it would interface or work properly, something like that at least.

I kept forgetting to turn ECS off and ate up most of a set of expensive Carbotech pads in two days, 70 degree weather, 8 sessions, I have the quaiffe and race tires as well as had the Cyborg turbo so more power than stock.

ECS off should be much easier on pads.

I now have an EFR turbo, soon switching to GTX, highest Vdyno showed 300+ WHP, 225 Rival S tires, no wheel spin in second gear or third but serious torque steer with or without ECS(which should always be off with that much power, sticky tires, getting on it...) The car darts around quite a bit, have to hang on with both hands and keep it going where you want it. I am hoping a different LSD will work out better but nothing tested I know of yet and I no longer have a lift, let alone a shop to work in so cannot be the tester.

I found McRib's posts about the Ford ABS race module last week, posted here about it but must have offended some rule about mentioning other forums, so it did not appear.

You are correct, he says it does not work with 2014 ST. I almost went with Wavetrac but Joe at 2J talked me out of it. In theory it might suit our ABS a little better. Still looking for a way to log TVC intervention to see how often and how long it interacts with Quaife on track.

Indirect method of measuring rotor and caliper temps and pad wear will have to do until Cobb adds it as a monitoring option for AP.

 

[Leadfoot FiST]

I almost went with Wavetrac but Joe at 2J talked me out of it.

I don't want to go on too much of a tangent, but may I ask what the arguments were? I'm considering the wavetrac myself eventually, and I've not really seen much in terms of comparing the two (admittedly I've not looked entirely thoroughly before getting distracted by other shiny things).

 

[XuperXero]

Try pulling the ABS fuse and see if TVC turns off as well. I'm willing to bet this is the case. ABS isn't necessary if you want to develop your braking skills.

Another possibility that adds to the difference in left and right temp is that TVC also corrects torque steer for us... Notice how little torque steer we have for a 214ft lb FWD machine?

 

[RAAMaudio]

With the Quaffe, 225 Rival S tires, EFR turbo, 1st gear is pretty useless unless I use the throttle carefully as the wheels light up instantly when the boost kicks in, going to work on lowering the boost to help out as it now hits the rev limiter almost instantly. 2nd gear, does not feel like it spins at all but there is significant torque steer. It requires both hands on the wheel as fast as you can get from the shifter to it and corrections to stay in the lane. 3rd gear has quite a bit of it as well but easier to control.

I am running zero toe but usually prefer just a bit of toe out for better turn in when diving into a corner. I am going to recheck it as been some time since I set it up to ensure not toed out a bit now, set it to zero if needed, test and then a bit of toe in to see if it helps at all.

Pulling the ABS fuse could make matters worse in my case.

-----------

I have experience disabling, completely removing, reinstalling ABS and do understand learning to use the brakes without it, prefer it actually. But, the ABS on this car seems to work very well on track and likely will help make the car faster as well calibrated and responsive. A second issue is in a FWD car the tendency to lift the inside rear tire, even if much effort is done to keep it in contact, the load is so small it will still likely lock up causing flat spots, I have had to deal with that issue ruining expensive race tires.

If you want to test it I recommend making a fused jumper wire switch you can easily reach and then test back and forth while you drive. Better yet have a spotter or two to watch or video the tires to ensure the are not locking up, it is pretty tough to tell a rear tire with little or no load has locked up unless you see puffs of smoke in the mirror.

I hope another LSD comes to light that fixes the torque steer, in the mean time I will just have to live with it.

Rick

 

[Siestarider]

I believe Joe of 2J thought the Quaife more reliably tested on track than Wavetrac has been, maybe just a matter of experience with one vs the other. Since they cost about the same I went Quaife. Hope someone with Wavetrac will weigh in with experience.

 

[Cesso]

This is the first I am hearing of the Ford Racing ABS module not working in the ST. From what I gathered MotoIQ installed one in their project FiST and they mention no difficulty, although the information they provide is extremely scarce. Has it been confirmed that the Torque Vecoring Control cannot be affected by the ECU?

 

[blurred]

It is for B-Spec race cars, so not ST, I believe the ABS systems is different on the regular Fiesta thus it doesn't work.

 

[Siestarider]

The owner of that build car reported the Ford racing ABS module pins do not match ours, and after considerable effort, was unsuccessful in adapting it.

 

[RAAMaudio]

If it would of worked I would of had one long ago I promise you that, sure wish it was so

I just thought of something, if I provided the wiring schematics of both cars I could compare all the signals and if labeled the same it might be a simple pin change on the connector. Even if not labeled the same I might still be able to figure it out.

Somebody provide the schematics, I will dig in and see what I can find out

Rick
USN Retired
Data System, Fire Control Tech

 

[floydthebarberbeefcake]

The owner of that build car reported the Ford racing ABS module pins do not match ours, and after considerable effort, was unsuccessful in adapting it.

So what you're saying is that the older braking system should be retrofitted in the ST?

 

[Siestarider]

No, I believe we have the best combination of electronic monitors and safety nannies Ford offers. Maybe we have not used all the available monitors well enough to understand what is happening on track under "at the limit" conditions.

I have been using the average vehicle speed monitor to log coast-down tests of aero changes.

But I could try monitoring left and right front wheel speed on track to see if I can tell when and how long TVC intervenes with front brakes. Even though I installed the Quaife, I know TVC still operates, just cannot tell when and how much from butt dyno.

Plus there are advanced monitors that I do not know how to use that appear to offer additional data on torque vectoring. Cobb has a performance monitor list that has a lot more options for data collection than most of us use regularly.

Maybe a professional tuner can advise how and what to monitor to understand how ESC and TVC intervene while tracking.

 

[yackyz]

No, I believe we have the best combination of electronic monitors and safety nannies Ford offers. Maybe we have not used all the available monitors well enough to understand what is happening on track under "at the limit" conditions.

I have been using the average vehicle speed monitor to log coast-down tests of aero changes.

But I could try monitoring left and right front wheel speed on track to see if I can tell when and how long TVC intervenes with front brakes. Even though I installed the Quaife, I know TVC still operates, just cannot tell when and how much from butt dyno.

Plus there are advanced monitors that I do not know how to use that appear to offer additional data on torque vectoring. Cobb has a performance monitor list that has a lot more options for data collection than most of us use regularly.

Maybe a professional tuner can advise how and what to monitor to understand how ESC and TVC intervene while tracking.

Im by no means n experienced datalogger but, my thinking would be to datalog VSS and ABS voltages, signals,... And then maybe record these numbers through a series of aggresive manuevers and find out exactly how it operates with VSC ON, SPORT MODE, AND TRACK MODE. This may not be the answer you are looking for but it could provide a baseline? -

 

[yackyz]

I didnt even read you entire response whoops lol but a factory scan tool might be necessary at this point if some data cant be reached through the AP

 

[Siestarider]

We can log wheel speed for each wheel, not just average.

So in theory, logging both front wheel speeds, any discrepancy between them and average vehicle speed would be identifiable in a spreadsheet format.

There must be a way to link Harry's Lap Timer to Accessport log data. If there is, it would be a lot easier to identify the specific turns where TVC is intervening, both where and for how long, whether using LSD or not.

 

[McRib 1s Back]

Hey, all. I'm wandering in late on this thread -- I noticed a few references to my car (which is the MotoIQ project car) and thought I'd post to make sure any issues were cleared up.

First, the FRPP ABS Module is not a direct replacement. It is made for the previous generation B Spec racer. It wasn't until I contacted Ford Racing that they yanked the part for our FiST application. It's a project, and I'm done with that part for now...

...because I have figured out how to kill TVC while preserving ABS! It's detailed in my project car thread, but the short version is that you yank both SRS module connectors. It's in the center of the car, under your center console. It's a real pain to get at if your car isn't already gutted. Yanking those connectors will disable your airbags and TVC/ESP. My car is a dedicated track car and doesn't have airbags. I am not recommending this for any street car.

On a final note, there does not appear to be any way to control TVC with the ECU. By design, it's a discrete function.