Rims so sexy, they aren't allowed

[dyn085]

Spacers, adapters, and even wheels with the respective offset will all affect the scrub radius exactly the same assuming the same total measurements and wheel width. You can't say that a 20mm spacer is better than a 20mm adapter or that a wheel with an additional -20mm et is any different than each other where the math is concerned.

Your argument is invalid.

 

[TheGreenOne]

I think he was referring to the effect that the additional distance from the suspension has. With 4x100 adapters, you have an extra inch to account for. But for 5x100 adapters, you're adding 2 more inches. So what he's saying is if you care about the added stress, you can accommodate with the offset. I don't think he was say adapters are bad. Just merely adding information to consider.

 

[RAAMaudio]

My point is absolutely valid as you are highly unlikely to find any wheel with enough offset and use an adapter and not have the scrub radius jacked up

To keep the stock scrub radius with just a 1" adapter you would need to find wheels with a +72.9 offset, with a 2 in adapter they would need to be +98.3mm when using a 7" wide wheel.

There might be some wheel one could dig up but none I have ever seen and I have had hundreds of sets of wheels on dozens of vehicles and do the research to make it right, always.

There are sometimes exceptions where you have to give up a bit to get what you need, I run 15x9 wheels, +35mm offset, my fronts require a 2mm spacer to clear the coilovers. My scrub radius is not perfect as the center of the wheels are 14.5mm off from the stock radius but close enough to easily be over come by the added track width and more sidewall support. I have a chart with every option and all the numbers laid out but it got stored away during our move with some other things I wish I could get to, I will find it one day I hope!

The main issue is the band aid approach, adapters are not allowed in many race sanctioning bodies but proper spacers are in all I know of, there is a reason for that.

 

[Hijinx]

I think he was referring to the effect that the additional distance from the suspension has. With 4x100 adapters, you have an extra inch to account for. But for 5x100 adapters, you're adding 2 more inches. So what he's saying is if you care about the added stress, you can accommodate with the offset. I don't think he was say adapters are bad. Just merely adding information to consider.

Where are these inches coming from? You can get custom adapters made that come in any width.

 

[TheGreenOne]

Where are these inches coming from? You can get custom adapters made that come in any width.

From the various ones I've found listed on various websites.

 

[dyn085]

My point is absolutely valid as you are highly unlikely to find any wheel with enough offset and use an adapter and not have the scrub radius jacked up

To keep the stock scrub radius with just a 1" adapter you would need to find wheels with a +72.9 offset, with a 2 in adapter they would need to be +98.3mm when using a 7" wide wheel.

There might be some wheel one could dig up but none I have ever seen and I have had hundreds of sets of wheels on dozens of vehicles and do the research to make it right, always.

There are sometimes exceptions where you have to give up a bit to get what you need, I run 15x9 wheels, +35mm offset, my fronts require a 2mm spacer to clear the coilovers. My scrub radius is not perfect as the center of the wheels are 14.5mm off from the stock radius but close enough to easily be over come by the added track width and more sidewall support. I have a chart with every option and all the numbers laid out but it got stored away during our move with some other things I wish I could get to, I will find it one day I hope!

The main issue is the band aid approach, adapters are not allowed in many race sanctioning bodies but proper spacers are in all I know of, there is a reason for that.

That's exactly my point. No matter how it's approached, scrub radius will be affected-spacer, adapter, or wheel. You can't say that one is better than another in that aspect.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Just using the numbers posted, 1" is 25.4mm so adds directly to the offset that amount, mm spacers effect in the mm thickness they come in.

You are correct, spacers and adapters all effect the scrub radius the same amount, that is why my sentence also included the other issues of using adapters.

An $80 set of adapters likely are not made from the best material nor have the strongest studs, more to work loose, easier to break, not really a good option as loosing a wheel is not really a fun thing to go through.

 

[dyn085]

:facepalm:

I've have not ever seen a single person lose a wheel from properly installed spacers. Not that people haven't lost wheels, but I've seen far more wheels come off that had no spacers whatsoever. Spacers are not the inherent risk, the maintenance performed is.

 

[RAAMaudio]

I have seen a lost wheel with spacers being used but it was not caused by the spacer, I have seen broken adapters which is what I am talking about being a bad way to go.

In fact, I had a set of 6061 CNC custom made spacers that had the added bolts like adapters to correct the stupid narrow rear axle issue on a SRW duramax, GM cheaped out and uses the same unit for duallys and SWR trucks. It not only looked silly but was inherently less stable that a properly built unit would be.

I would of preferred spacers and ARP studs but they did not make them for the truck, not even the stock length which are known to break and a great deal of work to replace. I even tried to get a GB going so they would make them for us in stock or extended length but the truck crowd sometimes does not get it, a solution to a well known issue and not that much cost compared to having studs replaced regularly.

All good for 6 months or so then felt a wobble, pulled off the wheel, I had several broken studs on the spacers and stock ones on the hubs, whew was I lucky I did not have a major off!

$250 into the scrap bin for the only set of "adapters" (spacers made like adapters with the extra studs) I have ever used.

Proper spacers I have used dozens of times without issue, street and race cars and seen them on super high end race cars quite often.

As I said, spacers are fine when done right, adapters are a band aid and one I would never use.

 

[pelotonracer2]

Man, I wish these came in our bolt pattern.

They remind me od the 19" wheels that come with the performance pack on the 2015+ 5.0 Mustangs.

 

[dyn085]

I have seen a lost wheel with spacers being used but it was not caused by the spacer, I have seen broken adapters which is what I am talking about being a bad way to go.

In fact, I had a set of 6061 CNC custom made spacers that had the added bolts like adapters to correct the stupid narrow rear axle issue on a SRW duramax, GM cheaped out and uses the same unit for duallys and SWR trucks. It not only looked silly but was inherently less stable that a properly built unit would be.

I would of preferred spacers and ARP studs but they did not make them for the truck, not even the stock length which are known to break and a great deal of work to replace. I even tried to get a GB going so they would make them for us in stock or extended length but the truck crowd sometimes does not get it, a solution to a well known issue and not that much cost compared to having studs replaced regularly.

All good for 6 months or so then felt a wobble, pulled off the wheel, I had several broken studs on the spacers and stock ones on the hubs, whew was I lucky I did not have a major off!

$250 into the scrap bin for the only set of "adapters" (spacers made like adapters with the extra studs) I have ever used.

Proper spacers I have used dozens of times without issue, street and race cars and seen them on super high end race cars quite often.

As I said, spacers are fine when done right, adapters are a band aid and one I would never use.

Adapters are no more dangerous than spacers. If anything, they're probably safer due to having roughly twice the amount of thread engagement for holding a wheel on. That would have to be qualified through math and I'm definitely not doing it. If you break one stud on a spacer you have three remaining but if you break one on an adapter there are (at least) seven, and they'll distribute the load more evenly.

Adapters are no more of a band-aid than spacers are and I've never seen any legitimate data to show otherwise. I've seen far more stuff failures in this community alone then I've seen of adapter failures in my life.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Looks like we simply disagree, again, and spending time on a subject that is pretty much a moot point as not likely any good setup available to use and hopefully those reading this get the most important aspect, the degradation of the handling of the car, added load on parts not designed for it, etc. if the offset is very far off. Most I hope at least buy the car for the handling and not putting improper parts on.

One point you may of overlooked, you still only have three holding the wheel on or the adapter on, weakest link in the chain sort of deal

When a race sanctioning body makes a part illegal to use for safety reasons that is more than enough for me even though I do not agree with all the rules the safety ones are the most important and based on lessons learned, engineering input, etc.....not a personal belief.

I am all for others modding their cars anyway they want as long as they do not endanger me or others and at least have an understanding of what is not a good mod to do as none of own the roads, we only share them.

 

[dyn085]

The degradation of the handling of the car is a weak argument at best. If it was so significant then people wouldn't be lowering their cars or changing the wheel offset to begin with. Clearly that's not the case, nor should it be.

 

[RAAMaudio]

???

 

[TheGreenOne]

I see both points. From what I've read, wheel adapters really are no more dangerous than wheel spacers. However, do I want to put a wheel adapter on my car, and then try and race it? Not particularly. I'm not saying that it would fail the first, second, fifth, tenth time around a track. But if you race it A LOT (maybe the car is a dedicated track car?), then sure, I could see where it might be a safety risk. With that said, for normal, everyday use, or even for a car that will be taken to autocross events or something similar, I sincerely doubt that anyone would have an issue with an adapter, anymore than they would with a spacer, unless that particular adapter was made improperly. Now let's all play nice.

 

[richtor]

The degradation of the handling of the car is a weak argument at best. If it was so significant then people wouldn't be lowering their cars or changing the wheel offset to begin with. Clearly that's not the case, nor should it be.

I dont agree, however most people will not use or have the stomach to push the suspension to its limits to begin with. The aftermarket springs/coilover setups do not have the time or the r and d resources to properly set up a suspension to get a car to handle above its limits. Any drop will drastically change the roll center, roll axis, CG, motion ratio, wheel rate, roll bind, roll steer, etc. To test and retest to verify each of these measurements are what they need to increase or keep handling at the limit takes both time and money, sometimes over a year of testing alone.

No I dont believe aftermarket stiffer/lowering will keep the fiesta ST handling at a peak 1.3x+ g's but then again how many of us will/can take to the stock ST to this level to begin with?

 

[dyn085]

I dont agree, however most people will not use or have the stomach to push the suspension to its limits to begin with. The aftermarket springs/coilover setups do not have the time or the r and d resources to properly set up a suspension to get a car to handle above its limits. Any drop will drastically change the roll center, roll axis, CG, motion ratio, wheel rate, roll bind, roll steer, etc. To test and retest to verify each of these measurements are what they need to increase or keep handling at the limit takes both time and money, sometimes over a year of testing alone.

No I dont believe aftermarket stiffer/lowering will keep the fiesta ST handling at a peak 1.3x+ g's but then again how many of us will/can take to the stock ST to this level to begin with?

That's actually exactly what I'm saying. Some of these arguments/discussions are taken to a level that only pro-racers are ever going to be able to qualify, and that won't apply to us 'normal' people. If this was a NASCAR or Indy forum then I would be inclined to have a completely different stance, but we're talking about normal people that slide into their jeans sideways and go to their 8-5 job somewhere in the city after their 45-minute commute. They might get into the throttle for a few seconds from the light or handful of minutes on a backroad, but even then we aren't talking about punishing abuse for hours at the limits. There's a very distinct difference in those loads/stresses, and what would be a dangerous modification for a track isn't even going to blip the radar simply because someone went above 25 mph on the cloverleaf.

Many of us may think we're because racecar, but our personal limits in pushing a vehicle aren't even in the same zip code as a professional racecar driver. I'm sure we probably have a few members with some skill, but they're definitely the minority. There will be far more wheel failures due to improper maintenance than failed spacers or adapters, that's for sure.

 

[richtor]

For sure. I actually like the standard wheel, but may seek to upgrade if I find one that looks good and saves weight. I'm going to be calling Method Race Wheels shortly to see if they will be setting up their new rally line to the Ford ST and RS cars.

 

[J2FoRS]

On the site : www.ozracing.com go to the configurator and there is the FiST listed. Also you can search for dealers worldwide. I think there must be a dealer in the USA who can order them for you.
The OZ Italia is allowed by technical vehicle organisation in Germany. And when we in Germany are allowed to have these rims on the FiST then it is allowed in the US too.

This seems more promising than the current argument going on. Spacers, adapters, same shit different pile. I want these rims!

 

[RAAMaudio]

ALWAYS best to use direct bolt on wheels with the the matching bolt pattern, hub bore and offset but seldom the case for this car since F decided to use a rare bolt pattern, easily it could of been 5x100 it they thought 4x100 was not strong enough. The more you move away from the factory specs, add more parts, add more load, etc we move away from the optimum.......................we end up making compromises or make choices based sometimes on less that the best, though well intended, advice.

I could take the time to dig in and give all the reasons why things are as they are but it is simply physics, the combined experience of 100 years plus of all car manufactures and racers simply outweighs any personal opinion.

I study the issues intently and make the best choices I can based on the best data I can find, engineering, racing, etc.......style is always a bonus and important to me but not over real performance. My car is pretty tame looking from the outside and inside but when I give rides in it I get the most incredible comments you can imagine. Instead of going after "oh your car looks so bad ass" I prefer to hear "holly shit this car is bad ass", I get such comments every single time I give somebody a ride

For those with other objectives, fine by me as long as not misleading to those still up and coming in this fun game we play.