Not for sale turbo upgrade.

[Hijinx]

The AFR was 11.6 at 5,000rpm.

I was doing the log to watch AFR without lag, but the timing stopped me from even making a full pull.

While true, 33psi is a lot to ask from pump gas, it's also clear that 33psi with meth's octane assist is no problem. So not only does it let me run 6-7 degrees more timing, it lets me run an un-known more amount of boost pressure, which only highlights how much people have to gain from Meth injection.

I'm not sure how it can be unknown...


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[Sourskittle]

I'm not sure how it can be unknown...


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It's un-know for now because I have to turn the timing and boost down to see where it's happy on 93oct. Let's say it's 28psi max on 93oct. Then it's a difference of 5 psi and 6-7 degrees of timing that meth has let me add.

 

[Sourskittle]

At the end of the day.... I sell hybrid turbos. And if you want to prove a point, you normally have to do it yourself

Anyone interested ?

External wastegate + dump tube
Inlet, downpipe ( and full exhaust if you are local and want it ). Oil/water lines.

I'll prob keep it. But if someone is interested, I would be willing to sell it...

 

[Beans]

If only this was a td05h....

Make it easy for me and tell me what lines you used for water/oil so I can eventually go 16g.

 

[masonsturbos]

So the "not for sale" turbo is now for sale?


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[Sourskittle]

If only this was a td05h....

Make it easy for me and tell me what lines you used for water/oil so I can eventually go 16g.

You actually don't want a TD05. I'm prob going to keep this turbo setup and "down grade" the turbine wheel back to the stock Volvo 12-blade for better spool up over the higher flowing 9-blade. It's pretty clear the exhaust wheel isn't hurting things on the big end.

Another forum member was building a super interesting TD05 based setup using an EVO turbo. Even I was interested. But the packaging of the evo turbo spinning backwards, and the general cost the titanium turbine wheel made it a bit much for me. But a really cool setup. Not sure where he went. But all his rotating parts were larger and heavier over the TD04HL parts ( because it's a larger bearing center section and all ). But after what I've learned with this turbo, I'm happy I went the TD04HL route over the TD05. And if anything, a more restrictive, yet faster spooling turbine is what I'd like, not a much larger TD05 turbine. And the compressor wheel in this turbo is the size of a TD05H-18G. It's reasonably large for a TD05. In a TD04HL, it's a beast. Besides the 9-blade turbine, I wouldn't change anything about this turbo at all. And it's pretty clear, the turbine in it, is not hurting anything but feelings.

 

[Sourskittle]

So the "not for sale" turbo is now for sale?


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You really don't have anything better to do ? Like install or tune something ?

 

[Beans]

Good points there, it's just SO easy to source a drop in 16g (big/small, Evo8/9/10, any of the FP variants) for dirt cheap I don't see the point, especially when I'm thinking more camshaft and RPM. I'd give up a few hundred RPM of spool for the development /durability that's happened with the td05h stuff compared to the td04l's. Not to mention the housing options.

It's a pretty active DSM market in my area, too.

 

[grnmachine02]

I know some folks in the Volvo world that had good results with the evo turbos. Granted, on the old redblock cars you have enough engine bay space to build a J-pipe and just weld the weird Evo exhaust flange on. Like SS said, the amount of work for our application may not be worth it.

 

[Sourskittle]

Good points there, it's just SO easy to source a drop in 16g (big/small, Evo8/9/10, any of the FP variants) for dirt cheap I don't see the point, especially when I'm thinking more camshaft and RPM. I'd give up a few hundred RPM of spool for the development /durability that's happened with the td05h stuff compared to the td04l's. Not to mention the housing options.

It's a pretty active DSM market in my area, too.

The TD04HL-19T will move the same as a small 16G compressor wise. This is what they refer to as a "TD04HL-23T". But like I said, it's basically a TD05H-18G wheel but will better aero design.

The Volvo guys have 2.3L and 2.5L's to play with. The 1.6L just isn't going to spool a turbo like they will.

For RPM this is your turbo, lol. I mean.... if your looking for more than 360-370whp ( maybe 380whp ), then you prob should be looking at a DHM Garrett kit.

I'm not really trying to sell this, but if someone wanted it, I would sell it. If you look at the pages of this Thread, it wasn't done over a weekend.

Like I said, I was all about that ti-turbine wheel and all that, but after now having experience with this.... sorry.... no way I'd run a TD05 on this car. And that's not me trying to sell this... By the name of the thread, it was never built to be something I sold. But that's just my honest opinion.

The TD04HL does have housing options. But these are the biggest ones. So you
Could only go smaller, not bigger. But like I said, if you want more than 360whp, you should prob be looking at a Gen2 GTX2860 or GTX2867.

No durability issues with TD04's. The new Porsche Macan uses twin TD04HL turbos on its V6.

Now.... run a TD04-13G on a 7500rpm DSM 2.0L and yea.... your kind of asking a lot lol. With a 18G compressor wheel, the Rpms drop drastically and reliability actually improves despite the heavier comp wheel.

 

[grnmachine02]

While I do have more displacement on the Volvo to work with, they also have one of the poorest flowing heads. Even ported to the max with a really aggressive cam, I still only made 300whp with a hy35 at 30psi.

8v head ftl

 

[Sourskittle]

While I do have more displacement on the Volvo to work with, they also have one of the poorest flowing heads. Even ported to the max with a really aggressive cam, I still only made 300whp with a hy35 at 30psi.

8v head ftl

Ole snap !! Your talking super OG volvos lol. I mean the 850R type volvos with the 2.3L 4 banger or the 2.5L I-5 lol.
They actually clip the turbines to slow the spool down so they don't bend rods. They make more power than they can handle kinda easy.

 

[grnmachine02]

Ole snap !! Your talking super OG volvos lol. I mean the 850R type volvos with the 2.3L 4 banger or the 2.5L I-5 lol.
They actually clip the turbines to slow the spool down so they don't bend rods. They make more power than they can handle kinda easy.

Lol yep. The old RWD cars are my main focus. I built an s70 t5 several years ago, and ended up bending a rod...I know all about that lol.

Those 5 cylinders do sound damn good, however.

 

[Sourskittle]

Old 9-blade we removed.

12-blade Oem Volvo turbine wheel re-installed

 

[Sourskittle]

Turns out. The 9-blade is only 10grams lighter ( far less of a difference than claimed ).
Zero chance this turbo doesn't spoil WAY faster than before.


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[Sourskittle]

 

[MM89]

Read over your entire thread in one hit and this was the icing on the cake.
Have not come across any conclusive info about mass differences between the 12 blade and 9 blade; very keen to find out how much quicker it'll spool up.

At some stage you mentioned that the Subies didn't come with TD04HL hotsides:

It makes boost past the point of the td04 "L" 19T. The thing is... Subby's don't use the HL turbine wheel or the bigger 7cm turbine housing. I think ultimately, the TD04HL-19T (or 20T) with the bigger 7cm housing will actually make better power.

Just out of interest, I think the JDM WRX of a particular year MAY have come with a TD04HL-15T 6cm^2 rear housing, based on this comment:

https://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showpost.php?p=17262795&postcount=16

"The JDM turbo on engine ID EJ205DW3BE is a TD04HL-15T-6
Accoding to a translated subaru factory document for a model year 2001 WRX. The engine spec'ed out a 246HP@6000 and boost was 600mmHg (11.6 psi ???). That boost seems low but that is what is says...It's nice to have a Japanese wife who does translation for a living..."

I haven't gone far enough in that thread to confirm this, but you also mentioned you loathe the Subaru flanges anyway so who cares

This thread has interested me enough to join this forum as I'm considering a turbo for a (in before hairdresser jokes) miata/mx5.
The TD04L-13T will hit 220whp but not 250whp+ on pump, which is where the TD04HL-15T might come in (or may not based on scarcity). One could reason that the bigger/heavier wheels of the latter would trade off spool up time and transient response marginally, but the port and polish housings game appears to be popular with the same subie crowd with claims to do one thing - quicker spool.

I wonder if the Kinugawa/Mamba/Kamak etc manufactured turbos are made close enough to the real deal. The last thing you'd want is to find out that the aftermarket turbo wheels are heavier than the OEM again. So, to use your findings as an example, a 9 blade slower spooling wheel is only marginally lighter than the OEM 12 blade wheel and the aftermarket 12 blade is even heavier than the OEM 12 blade.

 

[MM89]

Also, don't think you mentioned which brand 9 blade turbine wheel you purchased?

If based purely on weights and picture comparison, I'm guessing this one?

http://turbolabofamerica.com/tdo4-turbine-upgrade-tdo4hl-9-blade/#comment-26965

Down that page kind of reinforces my suspicion about aftermarket wheels being heavier than their OE counterparts.
The pictured aftermarket TD04HL 11 blade is 152g. Your OEM TD04HL 12 blade is 146g. Marginal, but suggestive that the aftermarket 12 blade could be heavier again..

 

[Sourskittle]

Your right, there is def a JDM WRX TD04HL turbo. But it's incredibly rare. I've never seen one and I've been messing with WRX turbos since 2003?.
Other wise, the TD04HL WRX turbo could be used the same as the Volvo. And I'd be willing to bet it's a 6cm2 turbine housing.
The weight of the turbine on my TD04, I'm sure will have WAY WAY LESS of an effect on the power band vs the blade count. Now... if the rolls were reversed.... and you had a Volvo with 2.3L/2.5L, then spool isn't an issue ( while bending rods from too much torque is ), then the trade off of lag vs spool is no issue at all, and it will let them breath up top.

I've talked to some more Volvo shops that specialize in TD04HL's FOR VOLVO's. And their experience is.... 300whp car use the stock turbine clipped to death to add lag so their motors don't break. 350whp setup use the 11-blade they sell which adds flow up top, while not changing the spool over the clipped stocker and it's lighter so it's easier on the bearings. And for the most extreme "race car" type cars they will use the 9-blade because it's very high flow up top and spool doesn't matter. And on top of all that, they told me they have had a few reliability issues come up with the 9-blade. As far as which 9-blade? Well.... they all come from the same place. Weather you buy it from turbo lab / Austin or somewhere else. It's all the same turbine.

Not sure if you have a 1.6L or 2.0L. But if you have a 1.6L, I recommend sticking with a 6cm2 stock turbine (12-blade) volvo turbo with what ever matched compressor wheel you want for the power you expect. The mx5 doesn't need 300whp to be awesome.

If I were you, and didn't have access to a proper turbo machine shop, I'd buy a mamba TD04HL-19T Volvo turbo with a 6cm2 turbine housing ( or 7cm2 if your looking for that 300whp-320whp mark ).

But just like our hybrid turbos, when you have 1.6L, spool up matters BIG TIME. Not sure what the 1.6L's can handle in a Miata or if your building a motor for it. But too much lag or poor response isn't fun when you don't have displacement like the 2.0L+ motors.

Are you committed to the WRX turbine/turbo for any reason? The "L" wheel will help spool over the HL on those 13T type turbos, but once you get into the 16T type compressor wheels, you want the larger fins/tips of the HL turbine to help drive the larger compressor wheels.

If your buying a new turbo, the 19T is extremely balanced. You can use lower boost and make good power with timing. And at the same time, you can use higher boost if the motor/fuel will support it.

16T Volvo turbos are out there. But... I like larger compressor wheels.

Another thing, again, not sure about your fuel management on your car, but when we are talking about XXX turbo on YYYY car, the fiesta is a high compression, DFI engine with factory boost in mind with some pretty good control over timing and fuel. If
Your doing something like a 8psi setup with a rising rate fuel pressure regulator or " AFC hack" type map fooling process, obviously, your given numbers per turbo will be lower. Like I've seen a fiesta pass the rating of a given compressor wheel. But the same turbo on..... well..... a 20-25 year old MPFI Miata isn't going to make 290whp on a 300whp compressor wheel. You might need a 350-370whp compressor wheel to make 300whp. And that's for sure not being disrespectful to the Miata. A 220whp Miata would AWESOME.

I think you'll find a lack of people making fun of a Miata on this forum lol. We have the same type car really. Just ours doesn't have the hair-dresser stigma attached to it lol. But it's still a dumb festiva with a turbo lol

For a bone stock Miata engine that you never plan to hurt or rebuild or add pistons rods, a TD04L-16T would be about perfect for 220whp and really fast spool without over powering the stock motor. But again... really depends on the setup.

Volvo turbos have a larger compressor housing, and built in BOV which saves time, money and packaging space.

Ole yea.... there is also a TD04L Volvo turbo that comes off the 1.9L volvo S40 cars. I think it's a 13G/13T compressor as well.

If you ever want to have use build you any of this stuff, lmk lol. But I wouldn't feel bad about a mamba turbo.

Also, porting the WRX turbine housing is pretty much required if you ask me.
Volvo housings typically are prob fine on a 1.6L. I'd def port them if I had a 2.3L or 5 cylinder 2.5L like Volvo guys.


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[MM89]

Re: JDM WRX - Yeah, hence I'm not too optimistic about finding one in OE application, subaru fitment. Gee it can be a blessing to have so many possible options but also create alot of variables when you're trying to get it right the first time. Bit of trial and error, but that's always fun.

Good to know regarding the 9 blade reliability and turbine source and that the OE 12 blade is probably the goer for instaspool, based purely on blade count (i'm sure blade geometry affects this also).

Motor is a 1.8L vvt unit. Static compression is 10.5:1 and yeah no goodies like DI
So the 6cm^2 housing is a given. The 7cm^2 is unheard of in this application.
While there was a Greddy kit for the 1.6L, it was a TD04H-15g and wasn't known to be responsive. With an optimised exhaust though, 200whp at 10psi has been achieved.

Yeah 300hp miatas are beyond stock motors unfortunately with the OEM rods being the weakest link. By setting an upper limit on torque and BMEP, I'd like to think 250whp is a safe limit to play by.
The WRX TD04L-13T falls slightly short (220whp ish) of this power target on said motor but correctly setup will provide 200lb-ft by 3000rpm which is a general yardstick for a good spooling characteristics on this platform.

A pretty common and well received upgrade for the EJ20 Subies as you probably already know is the 19T upgrade on the TD04L hotside. Likely a small shift to the right in power delivery and possible surge but MAY hit the target 250whp.
Given the price point of the 19T housing and wheel, no big loss if it doesn't work out. On the note of 16T, with the appropriate comp housing, it'll should fit right onto the TD04L CHRA, as the exducer on the comp wheel is the same as the 13T.

Haha possibly the first time a miata was mentioned on this forum, but the fact that the MHI turbos are so versatile, they end up on almost everything none to man/woman.
Likewise, I wouldn't be making fun of a 350hp festiva....Or even the factory fiesta and focus for that matter. They make an excellent fast street car with all the modern tech.

I am inclined towards the WRX turbo due to the ease of making the setup work. There's a cast steel, equal length (if not, close to) log manifold designed around the WRX flange. The turbine outlet is also easily taken care of with a bellmouth flange to mate to a 3" down pipe.

Anyway, keen as mustard to see results after reverting back to 12 blade!