Potential Wilwood Brake Problem

[antarctica24]

I have purchased the Wilwood Brake Kit from 2J Racing and I am experiencing a problem and would like to pose a question to those who have purchased the kit. If you have not purchased the kit then please do not respond.

Also regardless of the question this is not a matter of whether I should or should not have done anything differently so lets please stay on topic, This pertains to what I was recommended to buy and what I was sold.

I would like to ask the group, who has purchased this kit using the cross-drilled slotted rotors with the BP-20 brake pads? What application are you using the vehicle and how much are you driving the vehicle daily, and are you experiencing any vibrations.

In addition what I need you to take into consideration is that I drive about 6000 miles per month on this car. No that is not a misprint, and not an exaggeration and can produce a photo of the odometer if required. It is possible you will not have discovered the issue yet, as you are not putting the miles on it that I am. Being in the car this much I am intimate with the car and how it feels and drives.

While I need to get to the bottom of this, It is 100% not my intention to cause harm to 2J Racing. It is also important to understand that the Kit sold by 2J racing is not a kit offered by Wilwood. 2J Racing has built this kit using Wilwood parts and selling 19 kits does not make them experts on the subject matter. Wilwood clearly marks their products for OFF ROAD ONLY. They do not make a street drivable brake kit for any car. With that being said, this is not the first time I have used Wilwood products and consider their products to be top notch.

Keep in mind that I drive more in 2 months than 99% of the people on this forum drive in a year on this car. So everything I do in the car is exaggerated time wise. I will wear through many parts way before most of you do and this needs to be taken into consideration when discussing this problem.

What is going on is when the brakes were installed, we had road conditions which did not permit me to really try out the brakes. I was able to bed the pads according to the instructions, but there was no aggressive driving. This is 100% strictly a street car. It will never see the track in any way shape or form. Yesterday and today was really the first time I could get some speed out of the car, what I am experiencing is a severe shutter in the steering wheel on medium pressure to full pressure braking from 25mph up through 80mph. If I feather it, I don't feel anything and the brakes feel fine other than the typical noise and feedback you get with drilled and slotted rotors. It feels like a warped rotor problem.

Rotors were exactly in the middle of the caliper and not by sight, but my measuring them when they were installed and turned freely in the caliper with pads installed. The installation was as described with no issues or problems.

After having conversation with Wilwood, tomorrow 3/5/2015 we will be pulling the rotors to measure run-out and measure the wear on the pads. While this is not common on a new set of rotors, I have purchased a brand new set from wildwood for another application that was a wildwood kit, and the rotor brand new in the box had run-out by 8 thousands of a inch. And while you would not think you could feel that, you would be mistaken. And here is the big caution, Wilwood has clearly indicated that street driving on the cross-drilled slotted rotors with the BP-20 pad can damage the rotors. Wilwood reconfirmed today that it would not be unheard of to get a brand new rotor that had run-out. I am certain when I told Joe that today he thought I was crazy, Brock as well. That I was just some dumb stupid customer that didn't know what they were talking about.

When I advised Wilwood that I had the Cross-drilled slotted rotors and the BP-20 pads and was driving on the street, I was asked "who talked me into that?" he followed up with those are 150mph pads, and not meant for daily street applications under any situation.

Joe at 2j Racing is convinced that there is not a problem, and he may be right, but regardless of how many race cars he has built, and how many kits he has built for other cars, he has sold 19 for the Fiesta according to him and that no one has reported any problems, and if this is the case, that is great news, and I may just be the unfortunate one. Every car you build a brake kit for is different. Different because of the ABS system, in this car, different because of the Torque Vectoring, and pad selection is important due to application, and who knows what else. While I hold the upmost respect for Joe and his team, for which they have been extremely helpful in listening to my concerns, they were unable to offer any assistance and future purchasers should be aware that should you purchase this kit you are own your own and all they are able to do is sell you more parts at full cost. Joe feels it is not his fault and I do not blame him for taking that position at this time. Joe did select the pads for my setup and he was aware of my application.

If you are racing the car, it is possible that under extreme conditions and extreme braking you could experience some type of pulsing feedback in the steering wheel and that would be the ABS system. Under extreme braking it pulsates the brakes at 16 times per second. This is not an ABS issue. This is a rotor out of round problem, the question is what caused it. Under normal braking these should feel very solid from the moment you press the pedal to the moment you stop. If they do not feel like that you having something going on.

While it is possible I did something wrong in the installation, I do not believe this is installation malfunction. I believe the kit created by 2J Racing is first rate. I do believe this is a brake pad/ rotor problem.

There is no need to defend 2J Racing, That is not what this is about, 2J racing, Joe and his team are a very respected member of the community, make and sell great products. Based on my conversation with Joe and Brock, I truly believe Joe feels based on his experience this could not be a rotor or pad problem. He races his car all the time. I don't. But I can tell you, I drive more in a year than he ever sees on a racetrack.

If you have these brakes please share and answer the above questions for me to help me narrow this down for future buyers of these braking systems and maybe by chance help me come to a solution. If these brakes are not on your car, please do not offer any suggestions, you would be speculating, and that would not be helpful.

 

[MKVIIST]

Sorry to hear about your problems. I have the exact same setup as you all the way down to the brake pads. So far I've put close to 10,000 miles on the brakes and haven't had any issue. There were one or two members on here who almost wrecked their cars using the BP-20 pads on the tracks. I assume these pads don't hold up very well under extreme conditions nor have the longevity of others. Have you had a chance to inspect your pads?

 

[antarctica24]

Sorry to hear about your problems. I have the exact same setup as you all the way down to the brake pads. So far I've put close to 10,000 miles on the brakes and haven't had any issue. There were one or two members on here who almost wrecked their cars using the BP-20 pads on the tracks. I assume these pads don't hold up very well under extreme conditions nor have the longevity of others. Have you had a chance to inspect your pads?

That is good news on your setup. I will be inspecting everything in the morning and will post what I find out.

 

[StayPuft]

I don't understand. You post 8 paragraphs of speculation and then ask that no one speculates. You talk about how 2J doesn't care about their customers after the product leaves their hands and then all that no one comment to defend their reputation.

So how many miles are on the brakes? Take photos of everything when you take it off to inspect. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here who can offer input even though we're not running this wilwood kit.

 

[antarctica24]

I don't understand. You post 8 paragraphs of speculation and then ask that no one speculates. You talk about how 2J doesn't care about their customers after the product leaves their hands and then all that no one comment to defend their reputation.

So how many miles are on the brakes? Take photos of everything when you take it off to inspect. There are a lot of knowledgeable people here who can offer input even though we're not running this wilwood kit.

I mean you absolutely no disrespect as to your knowledge. What I didn't want was anyone to comment that did not have the brakes installed on the car because while all the experience in the world is great, and I completely appreciate it, it would not apply to this situation. This is not a caliper problem and is not an installation problem. This is a rotor and pad problem.

 

[antarctica24]

View attachment Wilwood Brakes Fiesta ST new.pdf View attachment Wilwood Brakes Fiesta ST rotors measuments.pdf

 

[Hijinx]

What's the question, again?

 

[Gonzo]

The original post was a little hard to follow.

Sounds like OP went to 2J and said "I want this BBK and these pads for my street only car" and they were all "no problem". Now he has vibration under heavy braking and went to Wilwood and their response was "You have this issue because these pads should only be driven on the track with your rotors, ain't our bad."

If that is how it went down, it raises a couple red flags, especially since that variety of pad on Wildwood's site says "OK for street use." If it has the potential to damage some of their rotors during street use, that needs to be pretty explicitly stated.

Only heard from one side of the story so far, but if its accurate this is good information for potential customers to know.

 

[Kurcha]

It sounds like the application <---- Shut up!!! You don't have them, it's a rotor/pad problem...

I can see this coming to every opinion...

Well I don't have the brakes... Oops... My car was made in South America.

Cheers.

 

[westcoaST]

Have you run a dial indicator on both sides of your rotor, and are you seeing a TIR?

This is what I would do if I had your problem:

Rent or purchase a dial indicator on a magnetic base. Mount the base on the suspension so you can check the total indicated runout on each side of your rotor, without moving the magnetic base. Find the lowest spot on the dial gauge, then zero the gauge, then measure the highest positive number, and record it. Do the same on the other side. Then remove the rotor, place it on a lathe, brake disc machining lathe, and perform the same test, and check the runout. If its the same, and exceeds manufacture requirements for runout, then your rotor is warped.

Check for bearing play, and make sure the bearing is greased, and intalled properly, and does not have any flat spots.

I personally did not order the cross drilled rotors nor the BP-20 pads as I would not recommend these two for street use. That is due to cracks which can form on the drilled holes, and due to the fact that the BP-20 pad is not a good all around pad, like the polymatrix E.

2J Racing provides the options for you to click on, and I believe each of us is responsible for looking at our needs, and studying these options, and deciding the best path forward.

If checking your braking system is not for you, I would find a professional in your area to determine why you are experiencing the shaking you describe. It could be due to a number of things.

I drive 70 miles per day, 5 day per week, and also have the 2JR brakes. These are drop shipped from Wilwood, FYI, at least mine were. I would be careful who I was talking to at Willwood, especially someone who states that they don't sell brakes for Fiestas. Maybe he was not as informed as he could have been, or should have been.

 

[antarctica24]

The original post was a little hard to follow.

Sounds like OP went to 2J and said "I want this BBK and these pads for my street only car" and they were all "no problem". Now he has vibration under heavy braking and went to Wilwood and their response was "You have this issue because these pads should only be driven on the track with your rotors, ain't our bad."

If that is how it went down, it raises a couple red flags, especially since that variety of pad on Wildwood's site says "OK for street use." If it has the potential to damage some of their rotors during street use, that needs to be pretty explicitly stated.

Only heard from one side of the story so far, but if its accurate this is good information for potential customers to know.

Pretty much that's it. So I sent the data included above the first picture, there are two PDF files with measurements. One clearly shows there is run-out in the Drivers Side Rotor. Less than 1000 miles on this Rotor. As I had stated before, not the first time I have been sent a rotor from Wilwood that was bad. The information has been given to Wilwood and the rep today also had concerns. However, regardless of the pads, he and I both don't feel like the pad is the problem here, but I stand by my quote I made from him yesterday about the BP-20's.

The reason you don't run the BP-20 pad for the street is the same reason you don't use carbon disc for a street clutch. Harder material is used when heat will be at it worst so that the pad will hold up under extreme conditions. That is why on a clutch, if it is for street use you use a softer material like the organic velvet touch pads. If you were to take a BP-10 or E pad and take it to the track more than likely the pad would deteriorate very quickly if not catch fire. More cars like the New Vette, CTS-V, GT-R, Ferrari are using Carbon Rotors, but they give some compensation for street use by selecting a different pad material. Not one that would be used for the track. Im not saying anything here that everyone doesn't already know.

The point is, and Wilwood is coming to the same conclusion, Faulty Rotor from the manufacturer. Joe's comments had me doubting myself.

 

[antarctica24]

Have you run a dial indicator on both sides of your rotor, and are you seeing a TIR?

This is what I would do if I had your problem:

Rent or purchase a dial indicator on a magnetic base. Mount the base on the suspension so you can check the total indicated runout on each side of your rotor, without moving the magnetic base. Find the lowest spot on the dial gauge, then zero the gauge, then measure the highest positive number, and record it. Do the same on the other side. Then remove the rotor, place it on a lathe, brake disc machining lathe, and perform the same test, and check the runout. If its the same, and exceeds manufacture requirements for runout, then your rotor is warped.

Check for bearing play, and make sure the bearing is greased, and intalled properly, and does not have any flat spots.

I personally did not order the cross drilled rotors nor the BP-20 pads as I would not recommend these two for street use. That is due to cracks which can form on the drilled holes, and due to the fact that the BP-20 pad is not a good all around pad, like the polymatrix E.

2J Racing provides the options for you to click on, and I believe each of us is responsible for looking at our needs, and studying these options, and deciding the best path forward.

If checking your braking system is not for you, I would find a professional in your area to determine why you are experiencing the shaking you describe. It could be due to a number of things.

I drive 70 miles per day, 5 day per week, and also have the 2JR brakes. These are drop shipped from Wilwood, FYI, at least mine were. I would be careful who I was talking to at Willwood, especially someone who states that they don't sell brakes for Fiestas. Maybe he was not as informed as he could have been, or should have been.

Go back to my post with the pictures. Go to the top picture, there are two PDF files there. One shows the measurements on the pads, and the other shows the measurements on the rotors. There is Run-out on the Drivers side Rotor and a lot. Measurements are in mm. While clutches and brakes are not the same they are similar in concept, I did own a performance clutch company, and have done a lot of work with puck material for performance applications. You are right 100% with everything you have said here. I should have known better to stay away from the drilled and slotted stuff. The message here is research, research, research.

PS thanks for the useful post.

 

[westcoaST]

Go back to my post with the pictures. Go to the top picture, there are two PDF files there. One shows the measurements on the pads, and the other shows the measurements on the rotors. There is Run-out on the Drivers side Rotor and a lot. Measurements are in mm. While clutches and brakes are not the same they are similar in concept, I did own a performance clutch company, and have done a lot of work with puck material for performance applications. You are right 100% with everything you have said here. I should have known better to stay away from the drilled and slotted stuff. The message here is research, research, research.

PS thanks for the useful post.

While thickness measurements of the rotor are helpful, TIR should also be measured to make sure your entire assembly does not have additional problems, like a bent spindle, or flat spotted bearings. I would definitely check TIR when you get your replacement rotors, to make sure it meets specification. If you still have your old rotors, you can pop them on, check TIR to satisfy yourself that only the rotor is warped. My 2 cents.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Sorry about the rotor issue, I have had some as well but no WW rotors yet, even cracked both front rotors all the way to the hats once and had a 75 mile drive using gears and parking brake to get home.

The GT rotors are the way to go, look up the info on them, I run them on all four corners and they are great!

I would never buy drilled rotors, for any use, except maybe cosmetic which is not that important to me.

-------------------------

FYI, the BP20 is not a track pad, WW has made an error on the site in labeling it as such. There have been those that used them and ate them up in no time at all and nearly crashed because of it.

I verified this by calling WW directly and they stated they are a street rod pad and not recommended for track use at all.

I am running BP10's for the street and maybe BP30 later for track or even more extreme pads like the BP40 or Compound H more likely due to the speeds my car will make soon.

---------------

In fact I have a brand new set of BP20's if anybody needs some street replacement pads.

 

[RAAMaudio]

Read page two of this file for a bit more accurate info on the BP20


http://www.wilwood.com/PDF/Flyers/fl227.pdf

They told me even that info is not accurate, they just are not a track pad at all.

 

[justinsane]

So I've been running the Wilwood BBK for almost a year now and never really noticed any issues until my most recent track day when I cooked the fluid (possibly a result of bad pad choice, bad fluid, and leaving ESP in sport mode instead of turning it fully off)
I brought my car to my mechanic friend to inspect this new transmission noise, looks to be an output shaft issue, and noticed that my driver's side caliper hose is oriented somewhat incorrectly. If you take a look at my pic you'll see that the fitting is pointed towards the front of the car which may strain the hose when I turn left. You'll also notice the leaking that has occurred that has eaten away at some of the red paint on the back side.

I didn't install this BBK myself so I'm not too sure how it works but from what I understand that fitting gets torqued down and would be fixed in that position. However, after looking at my passenger side and OP's pic it seems odd that my driver's side one is pointed forward like that. This hadn't been a problem on the street at all and this bbk worked fine on the street, but I don't feel safe tracking on this setup. Any idea how I can remedy this?


My caliper:

Pic from OP:

My passenger side (very minor seeping, probably from boiling the shitty brake fluid)

 

[westcoaST]

FYI, I cannot see your photos. Maybe if you make them public in drop box?

I believe this is a pipe thread, so no, it wouldn't be torqued down. At least there were no torque specs in the assembly information from Wilwood. You would be tightening down the fitting until it was located as on the OPs photo, and stop there. You should be able to back off on the fitting to make it strain less without getting a leak. If not, there's always teflon tape to make sure your calipers don't leak. I put in mine 4 weeks ago and have had no problems.

This is one reason I do not let anyone install parts for me. Stuff happens, and at least if I install it, I know the limitations. Sounds like you need a brake fluid R&R, and some work done to stop those leaks

 

[justinsane]

Does it work now?
Maybe it'll work better on Facebook

 

[Chuckable]

What westcoaST said. I too installed my Wilwood BBK kit a few weeks ago, and there is no torque spec for caliper fittings. It's a pipe thread, and you should use either sealant or PTFE tape on the fitting, being careful not to allow any sealant or tape at the bottom of the fitting. The Wilwood directions specify that the fitting is to be parallel with the caliper if I remember correctly. I'm running Carbotech pads, but that wouldn't make a difference for what you're experiencing.

Edit: Your pic just showed up. It looks like your caliper fitting is loose, allowing leakage down the caliper body. Plus, as you've already stated, the fitting is in the wrong orientation. I'd go back to the installer and ask them to fix it, if you trust them.

 

[justinsane]

I spoke to my friend who did the install and he definitely didn't use any Teflon tape on the fitting as he believes the brake fluid would eat the teflon tape.
Do you think if I removed it and redid it with teflon tape it would be okay? I reached out to Wilwood the same day I made the post but they haven't replied me.